The Perceived Ideals Of Androgynous/genderqueer/gender Non Conforming People

[KieranD]

In the mainstream media as well as many sub cultures there tends to be a fairly unified idea of what kind of exterior appearance is ideal. I feel that in many cases this is true about people who are androgyne/genderqueer, etc. It seems that being thin, physically androgynous without any noticeable signs as to what your assigned sex at birth is seen as the ideal. It bothers me that my body is far from what is seen as ideal for a gender non conforming person and that I'm never seen as having an ambiguous gender. Does anybody else feel similarly?

Andrej Pejic for example is praised so much for being AMAB being physically androgynous (in the more mainstream way of thinking) and having an hourglass frame.

[Guest Micha]

Yes. . . my ideal look may be more of what an androgyne would be seen as, but it's also pure fantasy for my (and yes, that is very distressing). The reality it with my build, hairline and numerous other features, no one will ever doubt my sex.

I am genderqueer, even if no one can see it. If anyone cares to dig, they will come to see my traits and characteristics, as well as my beliefs, that are not typical to my sex. In relation to a gender binary, or even a gender spectrum, I am androgynous, even if only mentally. However lately I've been wondering if I even recognize gender at all. I'm not sure really, because I feel gender is a poor reason to do anything, to act, to behave, to believe. . . what place does gender have in this? The idea of gender should certainly be more than your genitals, right? Your genitals are your sex, having to do with urination and reproduction, but not your love of shopping or ability to change your car's oil. What then is gender for?

Kind off the topic though. . .

I would love to look the part, but I can't; and that fact is very depressing. Doesn't change who I am and how I feel and relate to the world, but it does feel a bit dishonest. It's as if I can never truly be myself, cuz the beast I see in every mirror is a lie, it simply isn't me.

Thank you for this topic.

[Guest Alder]

-nods in agreement- The mainstream really sets it up for 'beautiful people' who are mostly feminine, just without exceptionally large...feminine traits.. it would seem. Which would possibly help my ability to meet the 'standard' if I was able to remove my extra bonus curves. Though you go from very effeminate male types to... those presented in the 'Pat' movies... it really doesn't give many places to venture and be recognized as something other than male or female if you can't utterly dazzle or utterly confuse.......

[Guest Hydraxide]

But what IS the ideal of androgyny? Take the chest area for example. With a flat chest you are seen as 'male', whereas with curves in the right places you are seen as 'female'. Notwithstanding the face of course. Is the ideal to have no breast but a feminine face and if you have a masculine face to have boobs?

This is the annoying binary of physical sex determinations. There is no 'in between' in this area, infuriatingly enough. Andrej Pejic is what most may see as 'ideal' in the pursuit of physical androgyny, although seeing him out of his model shots in normal photos there is little doubt that he is male simply due to a lack of bumps in his shirt. One could say that the 'Neutrois' ideal of simply having smooth skin over genitals and a perfectly androgynous face would be the ultimate, but with that said you would be more ready to think 'thats a male' if you saw someone like that due to the lack of breasts.

Seems to be a no-win situation. Ugh. I'd love a feminine face and a body free from hair and this is technically possible using hormones, laser and electrolysis. No everyone is able to do that and still pull off the androgynous look sadly and I feel sympathetic towards them. I'm just beginning my journey after years of faffing about and I'm unsure of where I will end up and if i will damage myself long term.

The ancient Greeks said that: "the full life is one full of rich experiences". I think exploring gender boundaries and modifying your body probably counts as a rich experience. I also have a suspicion that with the rapid advance of medical technology, in 30 years time it will be possible to correct any damage long term experimentation will have done to my body. Its somewhat cavalier to RELY on it, but at the moment I am unhappy with the way I look and I want to change it to better reflect who I am. I guess I just need to grab on for the ride.

[Guest terra]

As far as i have found, baggy is fairly ideal. Putting layers and having clothes hang over areas which would allow people to guess male or female works. Like having a skarf hanging over your chest can make it look like you might have breasts if your male and look like you might not if your female. Shoulder length or multiple lenths of hair to suggest it may be a feminine cut but on closer inspection someonemay think it loks male. I dont think its about trying to dress one way or another, i think its about makingyourself a rainbow or a chamelion instead of a grey area... Maybe @_o

[KieranD]

I'll use myself as an example. I have around an F cup, a very feminine face, large hips with a fairly small waist. Physically I'm considered feminine, even when I dress really masculine I'm seen as just a masculine woman as opposed to androgynous even when I bind my chest (all the time).

Really a person who is thin and non muscular might not have obviously defining markers when it comes to their body.

T should help but at 9 months I'm still read as female maybe 90% of the time...maybe when I'm more comfortable with myself physically and emotionally I'll probably be okay with a beard and visible cleavage.

[Guest Micha]

But what IS the ideal of androgyny? Take the chest area for example. With a flat chest you are seen as 'male', whereas with curves in the right places you are seen as 'female'. Notwithstanding the face of course. Is the ideal to have no breast but a feminine face and if you have a masculine face to have boobs?

This is the annoying binary of physical sex determinations. There is no 'in between' in this area, infuriatingly enough. Andrej Pejic is what most may see as 'ideal' in the pursuit of physical androgyny, although seeing him out of his model shots in normal photos there is little doubt that he is male simply due to a lack of bumps in his shirt. One could say that the 'Neutrois' ideal of simply having smooth skin over genitals and a perfectly androgynous face would be the ultimate, but with that said you would be more ready to think 'thats a male' if you saw someone like that due to the lack of breasts.

Seems to be a no-win situation. Ugh. I'd love a feminine face and a body free from hair and this is technically possible using hormones, laser and electrolysis. No everyone is able to do that and still pull off the androgynous look sadly and I feel sympathetic towards them. I'm just beginning my journey after years of faffing about and I'm unsure of where I will end up and if i will damage myself long term.

The ancient Greeks said that: "the full life is one full of rich experiences". I think exploring gender boundaries and modifying your body probably counts as a rich experience. I also have a suspicion that with the rapid advance of medical technology, in 30 years time it will be possible to correct any damage long term experimentation will have done to my body. Its somewhat cavalier to RELY on it, but at the moment I am unhappy with the way I look and I want to change it to better reflect who I am. I guess I just need to grab on for the ride.

Good luck, and please take care. Be safe. . .

[KieranD]

But what IS the ideal of androgyny?

I don't think there should be an ideal of androgyny.

[Guest Micha]

As far as standard, or something officially recognized, no.

[Guest Foosnark]

There's not really a single ideal, but a few kinds... just as with male or female ideal body types.

The issue to me is less about ideals than recognizability. Most of us are doomed to look like our physical sex regardless of how we dress. Some of us more than others. I'd pretty much need an entirely new body from scratch to ever not look like a guy.

Still, I wonder if that feeling of being unable to look like what we want to is just a variant of what many cisgendered people feel anyway. The attractive woman who thinks she needs a nose job, the former acrobat guy I know who weighs half what I do and thinks he's fat... part of the human condition?

[Guest Micha]

There's not really a single ideal, but a few kinds... just as with male or female ideal body types.

The issue to me is less about ideals than recognizability. Most of us are doomed to look like our physical sex regardless of how we dress. Some of us more than others. I'd pretty much need an entirely new body from scratch to ever not look like a guy.¹

Still, I wonder if that feeling of being unable to look like what we want to is just a variant of what many cisgendered people feel anyway. The attractive woman who thinks she needs a nose job, the former acrobat guy I know who weighs half what I do and thinks he's fat... part of the human condition?²

1. Likewise. And though this fact is distressing, I take heart in knowing it's not about looks. I could look ambiguous, but still act like a typical male (or even female), and I would be in complete contradiction with my self still. That I look the way I do, and feel how I feel, it's still a contradiction, but my priority does lie in my human self, my consciousness I guess.

2. True enough, is anyone really satisfied with themselves? Fruits Basket covered this a bit.

Going from memory. . .

It's like a rice ball with a plum stuck to it's back. You can see everyone else's plum, and feel jealous, like "oh, they've got a delicious plum stuck to their back, and I'm just an ordinary rice ball." But little do they know, they've got a plum stuck to their back too, they just can't see it. So even though other people have their good qualities, you do to, even if you don't see them.

Something like that. . .

[Guest Chrysee]

I guess that it's due to my age, but I am asked once in a while if David Bowie was a role model for me. Now granted, my Avatar pic was taken when I was in college, when I 'came out' for one night only and told a few close friends that I wanted to grow breasts and return to singing in a band, and this was precisely the time that Ziggy Stardust hit the record stores. However, I wasn't trying to be a Bowie clone. In fact in high school, I dressed and tried to act like Jim Morrison. So, I was not reaching for any standard.

There is a rather well known model named Sabrina, from Germany, who poses a good deal for Femjoy. I mention this because she has my body (minus the male genitalia!) I would kill to look like her. Now how that measures up against the general public's notion of what an androgyne looks like, I truly don't know.

By the way, I haven't posted in a while. Life does get in the way now doesn't it?

Hello to all, anyway.

Love,

Cissy

[Guest Micha]

Hello Cissy!

*HUGGLES*

Good to see you again!

[Guest Chrysee]

Hello Cissy!

*HUGGLES*

Good to see you again!

Ditto, Micha!

Laura certainly has done some remodeling, eh? This could make the cover of Better Homes & Web Sites

Been having 'partner problems' as she is struggling now with accepting the new me. She doesn't want me to continue to transition but will be furious with me if I listen to her and let her change me.

Go figure!

[Guest Alder]

A bit of a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation eh?

[Guest Micha]

Oi. Yah, that's tough stuff. I mean, I see love there, but wow that's difficult. For both of you. You both are in my heart dearest.

[Guest terra]

love is stretchy