North American slovenliness

[Guest apostate79]

One of the things that always embarrasses me about North American culture is the fact the US and Canada are two of the most prosperous countries in the world, yet everybody over here dresses like crap. Nobody seems to take any pride in their appearance, and you see women going out in public wearing pyjama pants, and grown men in their 40's showing up at weddings in t-shirts and shorts. For me it is an outward symbol of how lazy and apathetic we are as a culture. I have never been to Europe so I can't say first-hand, but one of the things I envy about Europeans and people from the Middle-East is the fact that they seem to be from a more mature, sophisticated culture that is reflected in their sense of style, on both men and women. Who agrees or disagrees?

[Guest Maria_B]

You'd never want to come to QLD Australia then.

Just sayyin'.

No shirt, no shoes, you're probably in the ritsy part of town.

[Guest]

Hi,

I live on the West Coast, where the dress code is casual. A funeral might bring out the suits, but little else does. Given that it's pretty unsophisticated, I still see people dress in neat clothing, even if it is tee-shirts and shorts. Personally I'm attached to it. If I want to leave the wedding and go hiking that afternoon, I'm ready!

It would be strange to visit a more conservative part of the world, like, perhaps Savannah or Boston. What do people wear there?

Love, Meg

[Guest Svenna]

It is isn't often a useful thing when we paint with such a broad brush...

As a past resident of Europe, I can assure you that dressing poorly or inappropriately isn't limited to North America...

People are people, everywhere I've lived or visited...

There can be a wide variance between individuals within a single household, let alone throughout a full continent...

So, mark me down as 'unconvinced' that NA people are better/worse than anybody else on the planet, please..

Love and tolerance for all, Svenna

[Guest kylie666]

Disagrees. I think people who are to dressy are stuck up people and need to losing up. It's not about being lazy it's about being comfortable.

As for me you'll NEVER see me in a suit, But maybe in a nice dress...

I have seen some people that need to re-think about what there wearing, Like a 300lbs person in a tank top Not saying i hate BIG people Just ware fat friendly cloths, There are some really Nice looking Big people out there, Just as long as they don't wear a half cut shirt etc.

And the same can be said for Skinny people... No one want's to see your Butt crack .... No matter how skinny you are

Or the people who wear there pants below there BUTT!! I still to this day can't understand them and why they would think this is a cool way to ware clothes.

[Carolyn Marie]

I have to agree with Megan about the left coast. Things are pretty casual most everywhere. If you go to a classical music concert, you are as likely to see jeans as a suit on men, or capris and a blouse for women. It gets nicer in the evening, though.

When we had a summer work program a couple of years ago, me and other supervisors actually had to take some of the young men aside and counsel them about their baggy pants and underwear showing. I had to remind them that it was an office, not their neighborhood 7-11. Geez!

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Nebulous]

You'd never want to come to QLD Australia then.

Just sayyin'.

No shirt, no shoes, you're probably in the ritsy part of town.

Yeah, I was gonna say I guess dressing up here doesn't really go well with the weather. The less you can get away with, the better.

I always put effort into my appearance, it's important to me. But if it's not important to the people around me, that's ok. I'll just end up standing out more They're happy being comfortable, I'm happy looking good!

[Guest Vixen Amber]

I don't know about the rest of Americans because I speak for myself. I live in texas and it get's hot as heck here so I dress for comfort. I like my baggy flare pants and i like my mega fatty hoody when it's cold. If it makes me look trashy it's whatever to me Doesn't mean I always dress like a 1990's grunge concert i just tend to be more comfy in my baggy clothes.

[Guest KimberlyF]

This topic comes up every once in a while.

I'll dress how I'm comfortable.

If you have an issue with how I look, it's by logic your issue. Build a bridge.

[Guest NatalieM]

The way I see it is, people are dressing for comfort and little else. I have seen some horrible (in my opinion) things lately. A while back I saw a perfectly cute outfit ruined by Uggs. Or, I think this would be one of the worst ones, sweat pants tucked into almost knee high wool socks and Birkenstock sandals. People need to realize that you can be comfortable without looking like you just rolled out of bed and put slippers on before leaving.

[Guest Wulfhere]

I completely disagree with you. I don't think how a person dresses says anything about how "lazy" or "apathetic" they are. Are manual labourers "lazy" and "apathetic"? This whole idea that casual dress = "lazy and unsophisticated" and formal dress = "sophisticated and respectful" is extremely classist and, historically, comes from the view that lower classes were lesser than aristocratic classes. Today, what we continue to view as "proper" comes down to us through the upper classes, and so its stands to reason that a classist society would deem casual dress as something "lazy" and "unsophisticated."

I also disagree with you about the differences between Europe and North America, as someone who has lived both in continental Europe and Canada.

If people choose to dress in the latest styles/fashions, that's up to them. If people choose to dress in what makes them comfortable, and that happens to be casual, "unfashionable" wear, then no one should judge them for it. We are not our clothing, and not everyone assumes the same things from clothing. For myself, I think many people try to hide behind expensive clothing as though it makes them better than everyone else. It's not what you wear, it's what's in your head.

[Guest ranse]

While we're painting with broad brushes, I dropped in on an old friend who hadn't seen me in a few months and I was wearing my work clothes--just a suit, but it's a thrift store find that's slim cut and made well. When I dress for work I pay attention to details like socks and pocket squares. She looked at me and said, "If I didn't know you and saw you on the street I would wonder .. European straight or American gay?"

I guess in her mind, men who match shoes and belts and think about the texture of the shirt with the suit they wear stand out as one of the two stereotypes above.

Off the job, I am guilty of the middle-age dude who wears cargo shorts and a T-shirt because I live in a place that's hotter than Hades in summer.

[Guest anika]

If it requires me to dress up fancily, it's not something I want to do. Comfort is all I care about, really. That said, I would never go to the store in PJs, and I hate it when I see people picking through produce looking like they just rolled out of bed. Nasty.

[Guest apostate79]

You're suggesting that manual labourers don't ever take care of their appearance? Now who's being classist? I'm sorry, but the people I'm talking about, 40 year-old men who dress like 5 year-olds, are mostly middle-class people who drive SUV's and live in houses in the suburbs. You're making a false assumption that dressing well and taking pride in your appearance is somehow a trait unique to the upper classes. I work as a line cook and I know for a fact that your argument is male bovine crap.

I completely disagree with you. I don't think how a person dresses says anything about how "lazy" or "apathetic" they are. Are manual labourers "lazy" and "apathetic"? This whole idea that casual dress = "lazy and unsophisticated" and formal dress = "sophisticated and respectful" is extremely classist and, historically, comes from the view that lower classes were lesser than aristocratic classes. Today, what we continue to view as "proper" comes down to us through the upper classes, and so its stands to reason that a classist society would deem casual dress as something "lazy" and "unsophisticated."

I also disagree with you about the differences between Europe and North America, as someone who has lived both in continental Europe and Canada.

If people choose to dress in the latest styles/fashions, that's up to them. If people choose to dress in what makes them comfortable, and that happens to be casual, "unfashionable" wear, then no one should judge them for it. We are not our clothing, and not everyone assumes the same things from clothing. For myself, I think many people try to hide behind expensive clothing as though it makes them better than everyone else. It's not what you wear, it's what's in your head.

[MaryEllen]

Play nice folks. I don't want to have to start handing out suspensions.

MaryEllen

[Guest Maria_B]

Methinks this all boils down to how one defines ''Dressing like crap''

I, for one, see suits of any kind as a lazy measure of trying to appear formal, and define them as ''dressing like crap'' owing to the playing it safe factor of it.

Casual clothes can look good. A pair of nice shorts, a comfortable but stylish T, and y'know what? They don't look half bad - To me!

I'm afraid there is not much more you can do than learn to live with those who dress in a way you deem as crap. Just like I won't walk into an extremely formal office and get angry and distressed at all the suits, you need to accept and not get angry and distressed by those who dress casually.

[Guest Donna Jean]

.

LOL.......I dress for ME!

Dee Jay (and comfortable)

[Guest apostate79]

I am backing away from this conversation before things get too aggressive and I end up saying something I regret. I guess the original point of my topic here was that we live in a very affluent society here in North America, yet most people I see are complete slobs, and I see it as an outward manifestation of a lack of respect for themselves and others. The same people I mentioned earlier who go out looking like they just rolled out of bed, and 40-year old middle-class people who dress like preschoolers (and these same people are *not* poor so they do not have any excuse), try asking how many of them voted in the last election, and I'm pretty sure you'll find a connection there as far as the rampant ignorance, apathy and laziness and the "dressing down" of our society.

LIke I said before, there is a lot of other things that embarrass me about North American culture. In the middle-east, they're rioting for more freedom and democracy. Over here, we'd never riot unless our hockey team lost. Pathetic.

[Guest kylie666]

I am backing away from this conversation before things get too aggressive and I end up saying something I regret. I guess the original point of my topic here was that we live in a very affluent society here in North America, yet most people I see are complete slobs, and I see it as an outward manifestation of a lack of respect for themselves and others. The same people I mentioned earlier who go out looking like they just rolled out of bed, and 40-year old middle-class people who dress like preschoolers (and these same people are *not* poor so they do not have any excuse), try asking how many of them voted in the last election, and I'm pretty sure you'll find a connection there as far as the rampant ignorance, apathy and laziness and the "dressing down" of our society.

LIke I said before, there is a lot of other things that embarrass me about North American culture. In the middle-east, they're rioting for more freedom and democracy. Over here, we'd never riot unless our hockey team lost. Pathetic.

It just feels like you have a overall hate for Americans, And your projecting that hate to there dressing styles, We here in the USA don't have a lack of riots over freedom,laws, And discrimination.

If anything i see riots as a form of a unevolved society where the people lack the understanding that getting Mad and breaking/stealing things will not change anything.

Protesting and having a voice does more then any riot, fighting for Freedom does not have to mean..."Really fighting" But that does not mean we will just sit there and take it.

maybe in Canada they only riot for a hokey game but not here, But then again i can't say for sure as i never lived in Canada.

As for back on topic of the matter of people wearing bad taste clothes... How would you know if a person is poor or not poor.. I know some really Poor people that just by looking at them you would never guess they where poor, And the same goes for rich/middle class people.

And last i heard there are more underclass Americans today then ever. But still i don't think that affects the way people dress, They dress in the clothes that makes them happy and looks good to them, Not to impress other people. I for one would NEVER dress to just impress another person.

Back in the 1800's and even the 1950's people dressed in the normal wear thus not to draw attention to them self's and have others stare, This was called blinding in. Today people use there clothes to express there freedom. Take the fresh prince of bel air for example, He was poor then placed in a rich area, But that did not stop him from wearing the same cloths or even changing the "richie cloths" to match his own style.

[Guest apostate79]

I don't want you to get the impression that I'm singling out Americans- I am definitely including Canadians when I talk about North American culture. And if you want to talk about how people dressed back in the 1950's, there is an element of envy when I see old photos of my parents and grandparents, who were working-class people, and how much pride they still took in their appearance back then. For sure there is a lot about the "old days" that most of us have gratefully left behind (racial and sexual attitudes, rigid gender roles, being put in jail simply for being gay, we could go on); however, there was also an idea of men and women dressing up when they went out, and I feel like we lost something in that.

[Guest Wulfhere]

You're suggesting that manual labourers don't ever take care of their appearance? Now who's being classist? I'm sorry, but the people I'm talking about, 40 year-old men who dress like 5 year-olds, are mostly middle-class people who drive SUV's and live in houses in the suburbs. You're making a false assumption that dressing well and taking pride in your appearance is somehow a trait unique to the upper classes. I work as a line cook and I know for a fact that your argument is male bovine crap.

I completely disagree with you. I don't think how a person dresses says anything about how "lazy" or "apathetic" they are. Are manual labourers "lazy" and "apathetic"? This whole idea that casual dress = "lazy and unsophisticated" and formal dress = "sophisticated and respectful" is extremely classist and, historically, comes from the view that lower classes were lesser than aristocratic classes. Today, what we continue to view as "proper" comes down to us through the upper classes, and so its stands to reason that a classist society would deem casual dress as something "lazy" and "unsophisticated."

I also disagree with you about the differences between Europe and North America, as someone who has lived both in continental Europe and Canada.

If people choose to dress in the latest styles/fashions, that's up to them. If people choose to dress in what makes them comfortable, and that happens to be casual, "unfashionable" wear, then no one should judge them for it. We are not our clothing, and not everyone assumes the same things from clothing. For myself, I think many people try to hide behind expensive clothing as though it makes them better than everyone else. It's not what you wear, it's what's in your head.

Did you manage to read my post beyond the first two sentences, by any chance? If so, you might have noticed the part where I talked about the origins of certain methods of dress, which you may have picked up on at this point: "This whole idea that casual dress = "lazy and unsophisticated" and formal dress = "sophisticated and respectful" is extremely classist and, historically, comes from the view that lower classes were lesser than aristocratic classes. Today, what we continue to view as "proper" comes down to us through the upper classes, and so its stands to reason that a classist society would deem casual dress as something "lazy" and "unsophisticated."

In past times (and, in fact, until very recently), people could not afford to dress in a manner that you seem to define as "proper" or a sign of people "taking care of one's appearance" (in fact, many people today cannot afford to do so). The class gap was huge both before and after the rise of the middle/mercantile class, and the latest "styles" and "appropriate wear" were determined by the wealthy classes. Today, if we look at what we view as "formal dress" and "casual dress," we still have it entrenched in our mentality that certain forms of clothing are more "proper" than others, and while casual dress has changed fairly immensely, many of the views on what constitutes "formal" or "proper" have no changed drastically. Luckily, as the class gaps have closed the work place has become less and less formal, and less and less class-based as time goes on. But you are ignoring the origins of dress in correlation to class with your claims that my argument is "bull*hit."

As far as your comments on what I wrote about manual labourers, the problem is there are huge discrepancies as far as what you consider to be "taking care of your appearance." In fact, you don't put much effort into describing what you see as "proper" and "improper" (a part from pyjama pants in public and shorts at a wedding). Manual labourers do not go to work every day in anything "better" (by your standards, given your OP) than shorts and a t-shirt. From your OP, you seem to frown upon people even venturing into public in their *gasp* pyjama pants (the horror!)! So I wonder, then, what you think of construction workers spending the vast majority of their existences in stained, torn jeans and t-shirts. And given that is what they wear for 10+ hour work days, they also (from having worked among them in the past) tend to spend their time off in similarly "horrific" clothing.

Then you go on to write about 40 year old men who supposedly dress like 5 year olds. I still have no clue as to what you mean. Care to elaborate? Oh, and you mean those middle class people driving SUV's in the suburbs who are neck deep in debt because of said SUV and white picket fence existence, and generally living beyond their means? And are you also assuming that everyone is middle class? What of those who live below the poverty line? You also fail to elaborate on what you mean by "taking pride in your appearance." What if appearance means nothing to me, and I refrain from judging others based on their appearances? What would society look like then? I'm sure it'd be ever so lazy and apathetic, even moreso than we apparently are now!

Now as far as the rest of your post, well let's take a look at your original post, shall we? 1) The two examples you give are women in pyjama pants and men coming to weddings in shorts and t-shirt. What is wrong with any of the above? I've met plenty other grad students (many among the most intelligent people I know, who are far from being lazy or apathetic) who spend most of their lives in pyjama pants. I've met countless professors who don't come to class or meet students in much better. I suppose they, too, are immature, lazy, unsophisticated, apathetic? I have an uncle who is immensely politically active in his party's politics both in Canada and back home in Europe, who worked the majority of his life as an engineer for a well-known company and who even worked as a manager for that company. He went to work every day in jeans and a polo shirt...in fact, that's how he goes to every formal occasion as well. But gosh darn, with all the work he's done and is doing, he must be pretty damned "immature," "unsophisticated," "lazy" and "apathetic." In fact, some of the most ardent political activists I've ever met must be as such according to your standards. An apathetic activist...how intruiging.

2) You claim that the way the average person dresses on the street (ie. women in their horrid pyjamas) is an "outward symbol of how lazy and apathetic we are as a culture," and yet if this were true, then Europe and the Middle East (which you praise so highly, despite never having been to either region) were in many respects built upon the backs of the lazy and the apathetic; from the people who built the cathedrals (labourers, architects, priests), to the people who preserved some of Europe's most important literary texts (nuns and priests in their unseemly habits and such), to those who kept it fed (peasant farmers). The way people dress is by no means an effective means of determining the "laziness" and "apathy" of a nation.

3) You fail to elaborate on what you deem "mature" and "sophisticated." And how on earth can you determine the norms of regions you've never even visited. This sounds like a classic example of elevating that which you've never experienced to higher levels, simply because it isn't apart of your every day existence. Don't worry, you're not the first in history to have done this; Greco-Roman historians were doing the same when they encountered the Germanic tribes.

The point of all this is that your rampant generalizations do not add up in the least, and is all based upon a vision you've never actually experienced yourself.

[Guest Wulfhere]

In the middle-east, they're rioting for more freedom and democracy. Over here, we'd never riot unless our hockey team lost. Pathetic.

And do you think those who are rioting in the Middle East are doing so in suits and ties?

As far as your statements about Canadians not rioting unless our hockey team loses...you couldn't be more wrong, and I get the feeling that you yourself are rather divorced from Canada's political sphere. There are demonstrations fairly often here in Toronto. During the G20 summit many Torontonians and Canadians made their feelings about the summit heard both through their words and actions. In fact, more Canadians were arrested during that riot than any other riot in Canadian history. And the reasons for it were for precisely what you spoke of: freedom and democracy. If you look at the last federal elections there were peaceful demonstrations around the nation, not to mention more activism from youth. In the end, we weren't as organized as the conservatives, but there is still quite a bit of movement as far as trying to make a difference (and now with the Ontario elections coming, the same groups are mobilizing to try to keep the conservatives out of Ontario). As far as other issues, I personally witness fellow Canadians working for trans rights in Canada every day and taking a stand when the platform is there. I don't know where you're looking, but you're obviously not looking to grassroots movements, organizations regarding both human rights and politics in Canada. There is a heck of a lot going on. And Canada has had its fair share of riots, however, I do not think rioting is a sure sign of change...in fact, in this day and age, the media is more likely to turn it and the mainstream population against you (see G20 riots. Now the population is coming around, but at the time people were "horrified" that Torontonians could have "done this.")

My response: go out there and do something about a situation you don't like, instead of critiquing people's wardrobes.

[Guest]

Several posts here are a bit inflammatory and pointed?

This forum isn't designed for arguments to be won or lost, but for members to help each other.

Please, when you're posting, can you refer to how an experience affects you personally without attacking someone else's opinions?

Thank you, Megan

[Guest Jaded1]

Hmm. I hope I don't ruffle too many feathers but I think I might have a little bit of a unique insight as I spent half of my life living in Europe (where I was born) and have traveled to 63 countries in my 31 years of life.

As such I have to somewhat agree with the OP in the respect that Americans are... well... different.

Let's face it, Americans are far less learned and far less willing to experience cultures other than their own than other developed nations. American exceptionalism has gone from "We know how to work harder, faster, better and live accordingly" to "We are special and better for no other reason than just because." I know, that is a harsh thought to read and even moreso accept but that is my experience, take it or leave it.

Of course in any society you will find people that don't know how to dress but more importantly I see that in our culture (and this is definately getting worse with each generation) American kids are raised more and more to be special little snowflakes where there is no such thing as losing and working hard for things is no longer a priority as younger folks have a level of entitlement to them that even I have to raise my eyebrows at. In most of Europe, from a young age tradition and etiquette and mostly respect is instilled in the youth and even though many are free to express themselves as individuals, they know that to succeed in society, you first have to go along before you get along and they know how to better themselves and respect certain social constructs such as how to dress for an occasion.

You might ask what this has to do with the topic at hand and it is this:

Why bother conforming to a standard acceptable level of dress? People should accept me for who I am and what I wear defines me. Now that can be taken on a positive as an expression of individuality and embraced but on the other side (unfortunately) it has also allowed people to dress to their own standards which in many cases are not that high, hence the t-shirt and jeans to a wedding and PJ's in public (the latter of which makes me cringe every time I see it).

Again, I hope I have not ruffled too many feathers but in my experience, don't ask for opinions on a topic or engage in a debate unless you are willing to hear opinions other than your own. Remember, a smart person talks, an intelligent one listens.

[Guest Mia J]

Why is it that this topic has become so toxic? Don't we all have enough issues that we share to have to argue over issues of style or dress? Can't we just celebrate the diversity in the world and between cultures and look more to the more important gender issues? None of us fits into a single box. We are all individuals and we should respect and cherish that. There have been several reminders to keep this from a flame war. Please take a step back and look at what we share together.

Mia