Indian Transgender Activist Assassinated

[Carolyn Marie]

Another terrible hate crime. The Community lost a leader in Sonia Masi. May she rest in peace.

http://www.dnaindia....medabad_1617180

Carolyn Marie

[JenniferB]

After reading that article this killing may not be from a transphobic hate crime. It appears she acquired many enemies that had nothing directly to do with being transgender, but more having to do with gang activity. Still there really isn't enough information in the article to make an objective assessment.

Jenny

[Guest thomasina uk]

After reading that article this killing may not be from a transphobic hate crime. It appears she acquired many enemies that had nothing directly to do with being transgender, but more having to do with gang activity. Still there really isn't enough information in the article to make an objective assessment.

Jenny

Thats what I was thinking. It could get to the stage where it transphobic in itself to assume that all violence against transexuals is motivated by transphobia. We need to be careful when playing the hate crime card.

T

[JJ]

Having just read several articles about this after reading the initial post it appears there is an attitude that it must be other "eunuchs" involved. And I find the use of that term extremely offensive. Being transsexual and being a eunuch are NOT the same thing

The whole thing is tragic and I suspect will be blamed on something other than the true cause just from the tone of what I read

Johnny

[Guest KimberlyF]

Sometimes we see hate crimes that may or may not exist and take offense at how others self describe-one of the problems with the umbrella...she's TG. Is she TS? Who knows? She IS a eunuch in Indian culture.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia-pacific/fire-rages-through-prayer-ceremony-in-india-killing-13-eunuchs/2011/11/20/gIQADLMAfN_story.html

"The term eunuch, or hijra, is used in India to describe a community of people who identify themselves as neither male nor female but as members of a third gender."

[Guest Mia J]

No matter what the motive it was a tragic loss for the Indian community.

Mia

[JJ]

Sometimes we see hate crimes that may or may not exist and take offense at how others self describe-one of the problems with the umbrella...she's TG. Is she TS? Who knows? She IS a eunuch in Indian culture.

http://www.washingto...MAfN_story.html

"The term eunuch, or hijra, is used in India to describe a community of people who identify themselves as neither male nor female but as members of a third gender."

I realize that in India the term is commonly used. But it is also defining a person by their genitals rather than their gender identity. The fact that it is widespread doesn't make it right or acceptable. Any more than the use of the T word that most people use for us is acceptable because it is widespread.

Female infanticide is still practiced in much of India. As is the arranged marriage of children to old men in some areas. It is still a culture that is dominated by male power and privilege and the use of "eunuch" merely reflects that. To me a transsexual woman is a woman and not a castrated man whether she lives in India, Timbucktu or here.

The fact that she and others may or may not use the term doesn't make it more acceptable either. If the only way acceptable here for me to describe myself was humiliating I might be forced to use it but it wouldn't make it right.

Certainly we don't know the motive here. I meant that we also likely never will for sure. The overkill and violence involved points more toward hate to me but as I said I doubt the truth will ever come out no matter what it was unless it reflects negatively on this marginalized community.

Johnny

[Guest KimberlyF]

I realize that in India the term is commonly used. But it is also defining a person by their genitals rather than their gender identity. The fact that it is widespread doesn't make it right or acceptable. Any more than the use of the T word that most people use for us is acceptable because it is widespread.

Female infanticide is still practiced in much of India. As is the arranged marriage of children to old men in some areas. It is still a culture that is dominated by male power and privilege and the use of "eunuch" merely reflects that. To me a transsexual woman is a woman and not a castrated man whether she lives in India, Timbucktu or here.

The fact that she and others may or may not use the term doesn't make it more acceptable either. If the only way acceptable here for me to describe myself was humiliating I might be forced to use it but it wouldn't make it right.

Certainly we don't know the motive here. I meant that we also likely never will for sure. The overkill and violence involved points more toward hate to me but as I said I doubt the truth will ever come out no matter what it was unless it reflects negatively on this marginalized community.

Johnny

Um...nope? The term eunuch in India has zero to do with genitalia. I'm gonna provide a source like I usually do instead of just telling people to take my word or say there are plenty of sites on the net you can find the info.

"In the culture of South Asia, hijras (Hindi: हिजड़ा, Urdu: ہِجڑا, Bengali: হিজড়া, Kannada: ಹಿಜಡಾ, Telugu: హిజ్ర) or chakka in Kannada, khusra in Punjabi and kojja in Telugu are physiological males who have feminine gender identity, women's clothing and other feminine gender roles."

"The word hijra is Urdu, derived from the Arabic root hjr in its sense of "leaving one's tribe,"[5] and has been borrowed into Hindi. The Indian usage has traditionally been translated into English as "eunuch" or "hermaphrodite," where "the irregularity of the male genitalia is central to the definition."[6] However, in general hijras are born with typically male physiology, only a few having been born with male intersex variations.[7] Some Hijras undergo an initiation rite into the hijra community called nirwaan, which refers to the removal of penis, testicles and scrotum.[4]"

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijra_(South_Asia)

So to recap, the word is Hijra. It has everything to do with gender identity and nothing to do with what's below the belt. These people self-define as TG or TS. Some are intersexed.

Oh, and the word translates into English as eunuch.

Oh and we have child trafficking going on in the USA. I know it has nothing to do with this thread, but it's horrific and I guess we're supposed to bring things off topic into the mix?

[Guest Wulfhere]

I agree with Kimberly here. I also don't think that the only words to use for people we call trans in the Western world, should be "trans" or even "man" or "woman." We don't know that she would have called herself a trans woman. I think that's a problem we face as a community and something we need to address. Just as the lgb community has begun adapting to the fact that not everyone identifies as gay/lesbian/straight/bisexual. We've begun to do so with the inclusion of Two-Spirit folks, but we need to extend that to communities that don't have as much representation in the Western trans community. We don't need to always use the word "trans" to describe a person who fits the Western umbrella of "trans." We don't need to limit everyone to "man" and "woman."

While agree that in our international community don't have the liberty to fully express their full identity, we also need to recognise gaps in our own inclusiveness. Just because certain regions of the world may not be as accepting of diversity, does not mean that the identities formed by our communities in those areas of the world are any less valid. The truth is that we can't say precisely how Sonia would have identified if she lived in Europe or Canada or the US or Australia or the UK and so on. The article tells us she was hijra, we don't know if that was applied to her only by her culture, or if it's an identity she embraced herself. What I have noticed is that every Indian report on her uses female pronouns for her, unlike the way the Western world often reports its loss of trans people. We also need to see our own terms through a cultural perspective. Our community is unfortunately very much stuck in a binary, which works fine for those who feel a part of that binary, but which often excludes those don't feel a part of it. I think we can look at the Indian community in a similar fashion. There is an extent of rigidity everywhere, but I would not feel comfortable speaking for Sonia beyond saying that she, like every trans person, should be treated with respect. I don't know if this was a hate crime or not, but it appears that she was a part of some kind of gang of hijras in her city (can someone more familiar with India and the hirja community there clarify). I see this as another product of culture and circumstance, and the fact that she was known as a prominent and apparently powerful hijra points to it possibly being both a hate crime and related to the position she held in her society.

I fully understand the desire to defend a trans woman or trans man's identity in the face of mainstream bigotry, however, we don't know enough about to her to know that we aren't, ourselves, excluding her identity by jumping to these highly westernised/cultural conclusions. We should mourn the loss of a member of our international community, and if it seems more and more obvious that she was the victim of a hate crime, then unfortunately we've one more to add to the TDOR list next November...

[JJ]

We are sort of losing sight of the main thing which is this tragic loss and you brought it back -thank you.

I have no quarrel with how she did or did not defend herself. If that word has a different concept in Indian society then it needs to be translated differently. there are no definitions of eunuch in English that do not refer in some way to castration of a male. That being so why was that highly pejorative and sexually oriented word used as the one to define hirja?-Which is indeed a different concept according to the Indian friends I have had in the past.

As far as the treatment and view of women in much of India there is no comparison. Using children for the sex trade is world wide. And one of the most egregious things on Earth, but widespread female infanticide and the giving of children -sometimes really young children -in marriage isn't. As that cult leader for Arkansas recently discovered-wasn't it a 500 year sentence or something like that he got?.-and those girls were quite a bit older than the girls in India,

It is not how she saw herself or did not that I take exception to, but the cultural implications of using a word that translates to castrated male for anyone not born female and not identifying as a male in society. Words carry enormous psychological power. If that word is translated that way then it carries negative connotations and defines those for whom it is used as castrated males. That IS the meaning of the word. The only meaning of the word eunuch, except to negatively refer to someone acting like they have been castrated. How can that be culturally justified? There is no way the phrase "castrated male" can be seen as more inclusive or less binary except that it is saying by formal as well as informal definition anyone not identifying as male is less than a normal male. Is castrated in essence both physically and socially.

I have and will continue to condemn using western cultural values to define other cultures. Except in human rights and areas like this where the use may be embedded in the culture-which is part of the problem and that group is very marginalized-and harmful to the dignity and rights of the individual. Read that coverage and the language used when hijras or eunuchs are referred to. I will deplore practices that demean human beings in other cultures as well as my own. The claim that it is defensible because it is a part of their culture just doesn't wash with me.

I don't suppose that we will resolve this. I perhaps see it from a sociologist and social worker's point of view as I have been trained to do rather than a lay view. It carries a different message for me perhaps. Which does not invalidate your view, just makes it different from mine and people will have to decide how they feel for themselves.

I've explained that view and why I hold it enough now. It is relevant here primarily because I suspect that the very cultural implications of that word being used are to some extent responsible for this death and is certainly responsible for other deaths less visible in India.

Johnny

[Guest Wulfhere]

I have no quarrel with how she did or did not defend herself. If that word has a different concept in Indian society then it needs to be translated differently. there are no definitions of eunuch in English that do not refer in some way to castration of a male. That being so why was that highly pejorative and sexually oriented word used as the one to define hirja?-Which is indeed a different concept according to the Indian friends I have had in the past.

..............

It is not how she saw herself or did not that I take exception to, but the cultural implications of using a word that translates to castrated male for anyone not born female and not identifying as a male in society. Words carry enormous psychological power. If that word is translated that way then it carries negative connotations and defines those for whom it is used as castrated males. That IS the meaning of the word. The only meaning of the word eunuch, except to negatively refer to someone acting like they have been castrated. How can that be culturally justified? There is no way the phrase "castrated male" can be seen as more inclusive or less binary except that it is saying by formal as well as informal definition anyone not identifying as male is less than a normal male. Is castrated in essence both physically and socially.

As Kimberly stated, there doesn't appear to be a insinuation of castration in the translation of hijra to eunuch.

These identities have no exact match in the modern Western taxonomy of gender and sexual orientation,^[12] and challenge Western ideas of sex and gender.^[4] Most are born apparently male, but some may be intersex (with ambiguous genitalia). They are often perceived as a third sex, and most see themselves as neither men nor women. However, some may see themselves (or be seen as) females,^[13] feminine males or androgynes. Some, especially those who speak English and are influenced by international discourses around sexual minorities may identify as transgender or transsexual women. Unlike some Western transsexual women, hijras generally do not attempt to pass as women. Reportedly, few have genital modifications, although some certainly do, and some consider nirwaan ("castrated") hijras to be the "true" hijras.^[6]

A male who takes a "receptive" or feminine role in sex with a man will often identify as a kothi (or the local equivalent term). While kothis are usually distinguished from hijras as a separate gender identity, they often dress as women and act in a feminine manner in public spaces, even using feminine language to refer to themselves and each other. The usual partners of hijras and kothis are masculine men, whose gender identity is as a "normal" male who penetrates.^[14] These male partners are often married, and any relationships or sex with "kothis" or hijras are usually kept secret from the community at large. Some hijras may form relationships with men and even marry,^[15] although their marriage is not usually recognized by law or religion. Hijras and kothis often have a name for these masculine sexual or romantic partners; for example, panthi in Bangladesh, giriya in Delhi or sridhar in Cochin.^[11]

As far as the way a culture decides to translate a certain word, honestly I believe that is up to those of our community who were born within that culture to voice their belief that the word is inadequate or insulting to them and their identity. I think it also comes down to the issue of whether one deems castration a negative thing or not. Castration as a part of religious ritual has occurred throughout history and throughout the world. Some northern European shamans would have themselves castrated as another method of increasing magical power within their own religious context. I don't know enough about Indian culture to make a judgement, and I'm extremely hesitant to do so. I think that would border on racism and ethnocentrism on my part. Yes, we can look at it as having negative connotations, then again, it begs the question of whether or not we're looking at this with an all too western eye. I think how a culture chooses to translate a word into another language, isn't the point that should be contested unless otherwise stated by those of the hijra community. Instead, we should be looking at what the lives of the community looks like in India. How it interacts with the rest of Indian society. I know trans people here of Indian descent who would find it offensive for a white Westerner to play the moral high ground over a South Asian society and their own variation of the English language, and as another form of Western cultural imperialism. That much I can see, and can agree with. I will willingly give my support to the Indian community as far as what it thinks needs to be done to improve the quality of life and respect for the community in India. If there is a strong push from the Indian community to change the language used to refer to them, then I will support it. I won't, however, go on a lone crusade to judge linguistic differences unless the community in India has actually shown a sign to push for such a change.

We have to also remember that Western imperialism in India has created a situation wherein English is now one of the official languages of India. We also have to realise that, as with everywhere in the colonies, different words are used in different ways. A f*g in the UK has an alternative meaning to its primary use in North America. There are countless other words in the English language that differ in meaning as far as where you go, whether they are offensive words, or common every day words. Indian English is yet another variation of English, so when you state that nowhere in the English language is a eunuch divorced from castration, I do think that it excludes Indian English, since it is used as a translation for the term hijra, which does not commonly include castration.

The issue of culture and how we navigate it is extremely complex. While I fully agree that human rights need to be defended everywhere, I'm not 100% certain that the use of the term eunuch to translate hijra denotes such a violation, or is considered such a violation by the Indian community. I would, of course, welcome any imput from any Indian members we have here, otherwise it just feels too much like a bunch of westerners passing judgement on a non-western society.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I immediately call on the UK to stop calling their cigs fags! It is an outrage and I am ready to lead a boycott because words can only have one meaning and when given the chance as a positive person, I'll chose to be offended. Who's with me???

JK

I think we can all agree that it's a sad story she's dead.

[JJ]

Good and clever point about the word for cigarette except it does appear in the dictionary which has no positive definitions of eunuch. I also have no objection to using the slang for a transmission in the context of car repair. Though I do see this whole linquistic argument about fags etc as a sort of non sequiter.

However I don't see my personal dislike of a pejorative word as a campaign of any sort nor do I see it as high handed Western Imperialism. Hadn't heard that phrase in ages-though it does take me back to the phrases used in some of the debates in some of my master's classes in sociology. Funny thing is I was siding with my Indian professor then. He didn't find my attitudes imperialistic at all-just the opposite.

What I do fail to understand is dragging out phrases like that in response stating a personal opinion and reaction to a word for a group of people whose definitions are uniform in the dictionary always include the word male. But that is not my personal opinion -nothing more. I have no plans against Indian society I can guarantee you..

But as I said this is enough about a reaction to a word and I won't post to this topic again

[Guest KimberlyF]

Good and clever point about the word for cigarette except it does appear in the dictionary which has no positive definitions of eunuch. I also have no objection to using the slang for a transmission in the context of car repair. Though I do see this whole linquistic argument about fags etc as a sort of non sequiter.

However I don't see my personal dislike of a pejorative word as a campaign of any sort nor do I see it as high handed Western Imperialism. Hadn't heard that phrase in ages-though it does take me back to the phrases used in some of the debates in some of my master's classes in sociology. Funny thing is I was siding with my Indian professor then. He didn't find my attitudes imperialistic at all-just the opposite.

What I do fail to understand is dragging out phrases like that in response stating a personal opinion and reaction to a word for a group of people whose definitions are uniform in the dictionary always include the word male. But that is not my personal opinion -nothing more. I have no plans against Indian society I can guarantee you..

But as I said this is enough about a reaction to a word and I won't post to this topic again

http://www.websters-...initions/eunuch

Hijra, a Hindi term traditionally translated into English as "eunuch", actually refers to what modern Westerners would call male-to-female transgender people and third sex). Some of them undergo ritual castration, but the majority do not. They usually dress in saris (traditional Indian garb worn by women) and wear heavy make-up. They typically live in the margins of society, face discrimination^[5] and earn their living in various ways, e.g., by coming uninvited at weddings, births, new shop openings and other major family events and singing until they are paid or given gifts to go away.^[6] The ceremony is supposed to bring good luck and fertility, while the curse of an unappeased hijra is feared by many. Other sources of income for the hijra are begging and prostitution. The begging is accompanied by singing and dancing and the hijras usually get the money easily. Some Indian provincial officials have used the assistance of hijras to collect taxes in the same fashion; they knock on the doors of shopkeepers, while dancing and singing, and embarrass them into paying.^[7] Recently, hijras have started to found organizations to improve their social condition and fight discrimination. There has even been a wave of hijra entering politics and being elected to high political positions.

I have to wonder if the bolded from Websters online dictionary is considered a negative definition of eunuch? They called them transgender people!!! Yeah, the definition technically uses the word male as in MtF, I'll give you mad props for that.

I may post up to 3 more posts here. I haven't yet decided yet. Guess I'll have to catch you on the next one.

[Carolyn Marie]

I may post up to 3 more posts here. I haven't yet decided yet. Guess I'll have to catch you on the next one.

Kimberly, if that remark indicates your intention to engage in some personal crusade against another member, I guarantee you that you will not be allowed. Hopefully, that is not the case.

Carolyn Marie