Gender of a person's spirit

[Guest Haileyruso]

I view gender quite differently than most in the LDS Church, it seems that it is much more complex than simply male and female. Even though I identify as female, I undeniably have masculine charactersitics...not just physical. To some degree each person is an amalgome of male and female characteristics. To go further with that, how could God be "all knowing" if he didn't also understand, in perfection, the feminine, and not just in theory, but in experience. Maybe transsexuals are futher on the path of being "all knowing" than the general population...at least in terms of things to do with gender. If the LDS Church is really for everyone, there has to be a place for me as I am. I do know from experience that suppression of the feminine in me leads to depression and has almost resulted in my destruction...not just once. The counsel that I get from the church is to suppress the feelings that seem to define a large part of my being...this can't be healthy. I would love to see some of my accusers be thrown in to the transsexual experience and told to swim...no, I would not let them drown, but probably would let them struggle for a while so they could get the picture.

[Guest Haileyruso]

So, when confronted with all of the scientific evidence and my own feelings the only thing that my wife can use to defend her beliefs is that "the Spirit revealed to me that your spirit is male and that will never change". That is as difficult to refute as the argument that I feel that my spirit and brain are female. I just pray that some day God will teach her the actual truth about me, instead of her believing that what she believes is reality, when in fact it is just a way to try to manipulate me into living the life that will give her the life of her dreams.

[Guest kelise]

When I read all these religious struggles people go through on top of being trans, all I can think is, I'm so glad I'm an Athiest. Religious affairs never stirred a moment of grief in my head. I have enough stress to deal with in the real world. If anyone would like to ask me about Atheism, feel free to message me.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

My view? There is confusion between SOUL and SPIRIT - just as there is a confusion between.GENDER and SEX.

There is the CREATOR. Does the Creator have a gender? Of course not. Yet "He" is referred to as "GOD" and the idea of "GODDESS" is considered Pagan, and therefore heresy. [bURN those WITCHES!] Double standard? No - the priests have hijacked the original old ways.

Does the SOUL have a gender? Donno? Most religions say no. I am not sure if the LDS Church considers the SOUL different from the SPIRIT. My opinion is only an opinion and is based upon my rational approach to spirituality - which is purely Uniterian Universalism (me)..

And as a UU person (me)? Perhaps the SOUL - like the Creator - .has no gender - RIGHT? But why are we as humans so entwined in our gender and sexuality? It seems the core of our being, sometimes. Does it, like our personality and our very essence, DIE when our body dies? [We can't know - silly question].

Reincarnation based religions suggest we DO carry parts of a personality into new reincarnated lives. If so, we would carry gender and sexuality? Doesn't seem likely - or does it? Some suggest it depends on what is required to further our spiritual advancement. You can be reborn male or female (more on that in a minute)

So what if there is a soul (genderless) and a spirit (gendered and with parts of a personality) - the two are separate, but both a part of us???.

That is a fun exercise - but a really tenuous assumption - grin! WHY?

It depends on a BINARY concept of sex and gender.

[FLAW!]

So no religion is even remotely likely to be 100% correct until the binary sex/gender model is reviewed. We are living proof of that, we the transgendered.

HA! We are what we are and no human brain can truly define that. Ask the Creator when you reach out and touch HisHerIts Face and LAUGH at the true answer! So simple yet NOBODY has ever figured it out!

Lizzy

[Guest Meri]

Lizzy,

This is all speculation, so I will speculate along with you -- I agree this is fun and the creator is gotta to be enjoying this as much as we are!

From my experience I have seen within myself layers of consciousness (I am thinking of an onion here). Our outer most layer is "us". If I dig down one layer, I find another fully conscious being which seems to be running all the background maintenance for my body and has a connection to yet another deeper layer. People refer to this 2nd layer as subconsciousness, as if it is somehow inferior or perhaps unaware. From my experience, I can assure you it is very aware and not sleeping.

I caught a glimpse of another layer consciousness below my subconscious, this layer in me just seems to sit behind the scenes and observe. I speculate that it is the organizer of my present life on Earth, this incarnation and I suspect it organizes other incarnations on Earth for my "soul" (just a deeper layer) as well. I believe it's layer or it's reality is to sit between the Earth and my soul. This particular layer, the one that is arranging and managing incarnations on behalf of my soul emits a very strong feminine energy.

Below that layer (her layer), I don't have any direct experience, but from what I have read Jane Roberts, Seth books), it is a layer of consciousness that doesn't completely understand the Earth realm and what happens here, it's more abstract and let's say removed from this place. I am told there are other layers as well and if you dig deep enough, you find the primal energy, the chi, the God force itself.

So, I guess I am saying we are in essence a bit of God (force?) wrapped by layers of consciousness. Hard to speculate being on the outside trying to look inward, probably easier to be on the inside looking out!

So, I suspect the inner most layers are "all of the above" with respect to gender. The layer or layers of consciousness that are focused on realities which require gender will tend to pick-up a masculine or feminine bias as to their particular liking ( in my case, feminine bias).

I have been told by a psychic gal I have a lot of respect for that I have had several very successful incarnations as a female and pretty much made a mess of my male existences. I believe my goal for me is to balance the feminine and the masculine together. To incorporate the inherent strengths from each gender and create a balanced being. That's what I am up to until I know better...

-Meri

[Guest Haileyruso]

Okay, so this thread is getting way far away from what I was trying to get at. In the LDS church a person is believed to be made up of a physical body and a spirit body. I'm not one to say what is absolute truth, but this thread was to try to get the perspective of other transgender individuals who have experienced being both associated with the LDS church and being transgender. I think this is the Mormon forum...I posted this topic in this forum so that I could get responses from people who come from a similar background and might have some insight into how I can approach the topic with my family and friends who are members of the Mormon church.

-Hailey

[Guest Dana R.]

Official Church stance on this comes from "The Family: A Proclomation to the World" which is a signed declaration by the then presidency and quorom of the 12. In it it defines Gender as being eternal, and makes no reference to or exceptions for Intersex or Transgender individuals.

I myself am struggling at this time because of this doctrine, my testimony of the church, and my feelings of otherness which have always been with me that I am fairly certain is gender dysphoria. I am seeing a therapist, but do not yet have an "official" diagnosis...I'm not even 100% sure how that works. This particular therapist is fairly new to TG issues, but I am limited by my insurance atm.

As I am struggling through this I have spoken with some gay friends who are still attending and asked about how they reconcile things, and "We are all men sinners" seems to be the refrain. The main issue here is that the church views homosexual actions and Transgender treatment and SRS as excommunicable offenses.

In some cases the church has been more tolerant, in others more harsh.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Hi Dana, I am very aware of this proclamation. It is a nice way for the leaders to throw on some blinders and ignore things. They have no clue about x-mutagens or other environmental causes that can lead to a transgendered state. If it does not fit in their binary they reject it. Dana, you are better off putting distance between yourself and the Mormon church otherwise you will waste many years of your life trying to reconcile who you are with what the church wants you to be. If you are trans and choose to express that part of who you are, you will be expected to disclose this to every new leader you encounter. Whether that be because you moved into a new ward or a stake president and or new bishop has taken over. You will be forced to RELIVE your transition over and over. There is no moving forward in the LDS church if you are trans.

If I sound harsh, it is because I lived this life. My advice to you is simply do not waste your time trying to fit in their screwy mold. Besides....if they question who you are then they should be forced to answer why there is not a single drop of DNA from ancient Israel in any of the native american peoples. DNA points conclusively to an Asian source. Not the middle east as the Book of Mormon claims.

[Guest Dana R.]

I understand where you are coming from, and while I believe it to be well intentioned, I still have a testimony and am trying to sort through it on my own, my comments here are primarily because I saw where the source of the church's doctrine on the subject had not been mentioned and felt it should be.

I guess I am one who believes that while scientific debate has its place in religion, it is not my primary focus, though I could point you to conflicting studies, not all of them church funded.

While your personal Journey has led you away from the church, I'm not sure if mine will yet, but I do intend to sort through it as quickly as possible. Thank you for your thoughts.

[Guest (Lightsider)]

I will pull no punches when I say that a testimony is a tool the church uses to control it's members and is a form of brain wash. I am very well versed in the arguments the church and it's members use on some one who apparently has lost their testimony and that sort of thing just does not float with me.

If you wish to contact me please feel free to do so. Just be aware I will tell you exactly where you will stand in the church for the rest of your life if you choose to have a relationship with them.

No offense is intended but I see no other way to say this...you have no idea where I am coming from. Because you are not where I am at now. If you read through this forum you can follow my journey..the ups and downs...etc. I can say I am by far better off with out the church.

[Guest Sentience]

OK, now I'm freaked out. One week today I will be at a big family re-union: a 60th birthday. For the first time ever my army of cousins uncles and aunts will see me substantially female. No skirt because I'll be wearing jeans as I'm a rock chick; and at 57 a rock that's old enough to be carbon dated! Anyway, one rather large branch of family are Mormons. I hadn't realised they held this belief. As a scientist, for me two sexes is a product of evolution to promote survival of species in unstable environments and that's it. I am not prejudiced against Mormons more than any other faith; I find them all equally bewildering, but I will now not expend any unnecessary time or energy should they enqire about my feminescence. (my own word).

[Guest (Lightsider)]

Sentience, At this point is all I can do it wish you the best. Hugs.

[Guest apostate79]

My belief is this- If a person has a spirit that may be opposite their physical gender, should it not be natural for that person to identify as such? It could be argued that transwomen may have been female in the pre-existence but born into male bodies, and transmen were male but born into female bodies, and now have a right and duty to discover and become their "true gender"...

[JenniferB]

My belief is this- If a person has a spirit that may be opposite their physical gender, should it not be natural for that person to identify as such? It could be argued that transwomen may have been female in the pre-existence but born into male bodies, and transmen were male but born into female bodies, and now have a right and duty to discover and become their "true gender"...

I wish the leadership of the church thought the same way.