TS/TG and Androgynous?

[Guest Velanna]

I haven't really thought of this until very recently, say about 2 months ago. But I do consider myself as a transwoman and I have never considered myself male. However, I do find that I prefer to express both my feminine and masculine sides. Basically, despite me being male in appearance, I dress in women's clothing and in men's clothing and act in ways to express both sides.

Basically, I'm just wondering if this is considered androgyne or something else? I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps HRT may change things around (I don't think I would just stop being this way) but maybe be altered in some way?

Btw, I do very much dislike BEING male but I like expressing myself in a masculine way from time to time...

I just don't understand! lol

[Guest aleon515]

Basically, I'm just wondering if this is considered androgyne or something else? I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps HRT may change things around (I don't think I would just stop being this way) but maybe be altered in some way?

Btw, I do very much dislike BEING male but I like expressing myself in a masculine way from time to time...

I just don't understand! lol

Oh boy, I am going thru something just about identical to this! The difference is that my "trangyx" goes the other way. I've been saying I am "ftm-lite". I have only been aware of my trans status for maybe 3 months. I started out thinking that I was clearly androgyne, but as I have gone I feel more male.

I am not sure I hate being female. But I don't want to be identified as female. I don't exactly understand this.

When i am out of the house I dress exclusively male, though I don't pass. However, at home, I wear women's pjs (not real girly girl ones) and hang around in women's stretchy pants. It seems to be more comfort than anything. (Lately I like just hanging around in guy's boxer briefs. I have interests that are both. (computers, working with animals, space, etc.) I don't really know how male's feel, so I don't know if I feel like a male would feel. (I did have experiences early in life, telling my parents I was a boy and having them call me a male name.)

I feel inside a bit of both I think. But I am finding myself really pulled to taking T. It is so confusing.

I went to the ftm group tonight and felt a little odd guy out. They spent much of the session talking about top surgery, which I am very ambivalent about. I don't like my breasts but don't know if I don't like them THAT much. I hide them which seems to help with dysphoria.

BTW, I do know that some people consider themselves androgyne but prefer to be that way in the other body, so I think that must be possible too. After all, as androgyne you do end up being identified in a certain body regardless of what you wear.

Some people's androgyne presentation is so incredible are visually confusing but that is rare.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Velanna]

It's very confusing... then again, trans related things are not at their pinnacle of overall knowledge of them. There's still A LOT of unknown things about trans related issues. I have heard of some very confusing stories of people who identify as male/female but find comfort in expressing as the opposite. I've even heard of someone who identifies as both male and female, transitioned to female, and expresses them-self completely as male. So... there it is! I just wish there was something for me to identify myself with being trans/androgyne at the same time...I guess that's what I am...?

[Guest Micha]

Masculinity is not exclusive to men, as femininity is not exclusive to women. Personally I don't think there's anyone who's at either extreme completely, but perhaps there is. Either way, there's nothing unnatural about being both. That is allowed. Whether or not this is considered androgyne, that's up to you, but rest easy knowing that no one is going to tell you you're wrong (and if they do they're out of line).

If it was me, I'd say yes, it is.

I had a conversation with a trans man recently, and he described to me how he tried so hard to be masculine in order to fit in with the guys. After a while he realized that he still wasn't happy. So he gave up on trying and just let himself be, let his hair grow out a bit, didn't worry about whether his behavior was masculine and the like, just acted naturally. Turns out not only is he happier, but he's still generally gendered correctly.

Point being you don't have to conform to any standards to have the right identify as what you are. If you're a masculine trans woman, you're no less legitimate than any other woman. Same if you're an androgynous trans woman. No rules luv, cept be yourself.

[Guest Chrysee]

I've talked this one into the ground, but it's all I've got.

When I Came Out, it was with the understanding that in the mainstream world there are men and women. I arrived here on my first day of school (so to speak) and concluded that in the Transgender world there is MTF and FTM. Believing myself to be a woman in a man's body, I assumed that I was an FTM.

Now between the time that I Came Out and my arrival here at Laura's I had already begun buying skirts and make-up and loving every bit of it. I had already decided that I wanted HRT but found SRS disturbing, and not due to any suppressed macho crap. After one day reading about an MTF who was transitioned and living full time, I spun off in a confused whirl. She spoke of voice training and having sung since childhood, I love my voice as is. And for me to become a full fledged woman would leave me feeling as lacking in something as remaining a biological man would.

I've read articles on androgynous presentation, and special styles and colors are yes and some are no because they are too masculine or feminine.

Oh?

Someone here once posted a question asking if androgynes crossdress. Well this one does. I love women's clothes like you can't believe! But I love more of a Marlene Dietrich type of presentation, with a white blouse and necktie, dark jacket and a matching skirt. And sometimes I don a bowler or a top hat. Now this I suppose could make me seem like more of a cross dresser but for the fact that I still seek HRT. My girlfriend noticed not long after my Coming Out that I was using more feminine gestures, facial expressions, etc.

The thing is, I was not a woman trapped in a man's body but rather had a woman locked away in my body. Once I let her out and gave her the run of the place, and then recognized my true, andro identity, I suppose that I morphed into just about the femi-est andro in the room. I shop at Charlottle Russe and always horrify the salesperson when I ask to use a fitting room. I walk through the Mall in a way that makes me feel beautiful and wonder if anyone (male or female) is noticing me in a nice way. And yet I sprawl out in my recliner on a Sunday afternoon during the season and while gobbling a fat sandwich scream at the t.v. if the New England Patriots are losing. (And please don't mention the last Super Bowl!)

As I've mentioned, and as can be seen in my gallery, I still sport a goattee even though I wear eye shadow and mascara.

Now, after too many decades of Hell, I'm just so glad to see myself when I wake up each morning.

Hope this helps.

With love,

Cissy Priscilla

[Guest aleon515]

I watched some youtube videos yesterday of trans guys who were very comfortable in their guy status except around other guys-- they couldn't interact that well socially. So they just decided to be themselves. I suppose the later is the important thing-- being yourself. Though some of us might wonder exactly what the heck that is!

I agree there is something, perhaps, inherently confusing about this all.

Presentation, of course, is not gender. It might be easy to think this. But then I wonder at times what it exactly is.

Interesting discussion.

--Jay Jay

[Guest Velanna]

I very much like how Micha put it! Masculinity is most certainly NOT exclusive to men much like femininity is NOT exclusive to women! I couldn't agree more! I guess what I'm curious about is finding out is if I am androgynous or not. I am most certainly TG(TS)! But I'm not sure if I'm both TG(TS) and androgynous. I have no problem being both...I'd just like to know if I am. I guess I would have to do some research on my own to find out!

Nonetheless, it doesn't bother me if I am!

Also to Chrysee, I feel ya on the whole shopping at Charlotte Russe thing. Whenever I go (I have a male appearance) and ask to try stuff on I usually either get a VERY odd look thrown my way by the person I asked or they say something like "are you sure you want to shop here?" Which I answer without hesitation "if I wasn't, I wouldn't be here shopping right now." It just goes to show that people need some educating! Clothing is clothing is clothing! Three times for emphasis! It matters not WHO is buying it or for WHAT or WHO they're buying it for! Just as long as a sale is made why should any of that matter to the store?

Ah well...

[KieranD]

People often don't recognize that there are butch, androgynous, and masculine trans women out there. I consider myself male. I identify my body as male, and use "male language" to describe my body. I don't really describe my gender as "man" because I don't feel that way. My gender, is genderqueer. When it comes to not being in trans spaces there's a strong pressure of people to categorize as man and woman. You see it in bathrooms, dressing rooms, locker rooms, and applications. In these situations I would prefer to be able to use the "men's" meaning I default that way in public.

So...it's possible that you're trans in a vague non-transsexual way. It's possible that your gender expression is androgynous or fluid and your gender identity is "woman."

[Guest Annabelle Anders]

The thing is, I was not a woman trapped in a man's body but rather had a woman locked away in my body.

You just said it perfectly!

[Guest Jo-I-Dunno]

I was born and raised a boy. I never minded that much in and of itself. But from time to time, I wish I had been born and raised a girl. Not in a "darn-it, my life sucks! I'm trapped in the wrong body!" kind of way, but with a vague curiosity and the calm sadness of knowing it can never be satisfied. I imagine if I had been born and raised a girl, I would have felt the same way about not getting to be a boy.

I do know, however, that I hate makeup, women's clothing, and women's hairstyles. Not just on me, I don't even like them on other people. And I've never changed my personality to fit gender stereotypes. So naturally, I was extremely confused. Why do I want to be a girl if I don't particularly want anything that goes along with it?

My understanding of who I am and what I want has changed regularly over the last 10 or so years, but the one thing which has stayed consistent is the knowledge that I don't want to be a "man". Being a boy's fine, but being a "man" sounds awful.

I started feminizing hormones when I was 18, and I'm in the middle of permanent facial hair removal, but have not transitioned in any other way. I'm now 20 and I'm still basically male to the world, except now I have the benefit of looking like I'm 15 and am firmly maintaining my "boy" status. And I'm delighted by the occasional "ma'am... I mean sir. Sorry."

I'm at a crossroads in my life. I'm almost done with school and have a job lined up that's going to afford me more than enough cash for a 21-year-old living with his/her parents. The main reason I haven't experimented more with my looks is because I use public transportation on the south side of Chicago regularly and fear for my safety. But with that ending and a lot of money coming in, I'll have the option to look however I want. My character's a blank page. What should I choose?

The more I think about it, "woman" doesn't sound good either. I just have this image of a person in my head which doesn't really fit any stereotype. The closest ideas I can think of are androgynous elves and angels. Here's what I'm going for:

- Long and slender: Check (I wish I were shorter but that can never change)

- Soft, hairless skin: Not yet. it's soft, but far from hairless.

- Short hair: Check

- No facial hair: Not yet. Working on this.

- Athletic: Far from it. I'm lethargic and only eat about 1200 calories a day.

- Boy-"ish" wardrobe: Check. I have the same 4-5 outfits I wear repeatedly, though. I wish I had more.

- Pierced ears: Not yet.

- Small but notable breasts: Check. 2 years of hormones. Not much, but enough to make me self-conscious as an otherwise skinny male.

- Female genitals: Obviously I don't have that.

- Androgyous voice: Kind of. I sound like a young man, and my pitch is higher depending on my mood, but no one would ever think I'm anything but male after hearing my voice.

I guess the bottom line is... I am transsexual in the sense that I'm taking HRT and want breasts and female genitals, but everything else about me is boyish. I gave up on finding a word for it long ago. There's no "truth" to it, and if you can't find a cause or a pattern then who cares? Confused? Just think about what you want and take it one day at a time.

[Guest akikami]

I was born and raised a boy. I never minded that much in and of itself. But from time to time, I wish I had been born and raised a girl. Not in a "darn-it, my life sucks! I'm trapped in the wrong body!" kind of way, but with a vague curiosity and the calm sadness of knowing it can never be satisfied. I imagine if I had been born and raised a girl, I would have felt the same way about not getting to be a boy.

I do know, however, that I hate makeup, women's clothing, and women's hairstyles. Not just on me, I don't even like them on other people. And I've never changed my personality to fit gender stereotypes. So naturally, I was extremely confused. Why do I want to be a girl if I don't particularly want anything that goes along with it?

My understanding of who I am and what I want has changed regularly over the last 10 or so years, but the one thing which has stayed consistent is the knowledge that I don't want to be a "man". Being a boy's fine, but being a "man" sounds awful.

I started feminizing hormones when I was 18, and I'm in the middle of permanent facial hair removal, but have not transitioned in any other way. I'm now 20 and I'm still basically male to the world, except now I have the benefit of looking like I'm 15 and am firmly maintaining my "boy" status. And I'm delighted by the occasional "ma'am... I mean sir. Sorry."

I'm at a crossroads in my life. I'm almost done with school and have a job lined up that's going to afford me more than enough cash for a 21-year-old living with his/her parents. The main reason I haven't experimented more with my looks is because I use public transportation on the south side of Chicago regularly and fear for my safety. But with that ending and a lot of money coming in, I'll have the option to look however I want. My character's a blank page. What should I choose?

The more I think about it, "woman" doesn't sound good either. I just have this image of a person in my head which doesn't really fit any stereotype. The closest ideas I can think of are androgynous elves and angels. Here's what I'm going for:

- Long and slender: Check (I wish I were shorter but that can never change)

- Soft, hairless skin: Not yet. it's soft, but far from hairless.

- Short hair: Check

- No facial hair: Not yet. Working on this.

- Athletic: Far from it. I'm lethargic and only eat about 1200 calories a day.

- Boy-"ish" wardrobe: Check. I have the same 4-5 outfits I wear repeatedly, though. I wish I had more.

- Pierced ears: Not yet.

- Small but notable breasts: Check. 2 years of hormones. Not much, but enough to make me self-conscious as an otherwise skinny male.

- Female genitals: Obviously I don't have that.

- Androgyous voice: Kind of. I sound like a young man, and my pitch is higher depending on my mood, but no one would ever think I'm anything but male after hearing my voice.

I guess the bottom line is... I am transsexual in the sense that I'm taking HRT and want breasts and female genitals, but everything else about me is boyish. I gave up on finding a word for it long ago. There's no "truth" to it, and if you can't find a cause or a pattern then who cares? Confused? Just think about what you want and take it one day at a time.

Hmm I think I'm similar to you. I'm currently 20 (to be 21 in 4 months~) o..o

but different in other respects

- I do have feelings that I wish I could've been raised as a girl or so

- there were some jokes around how skinny I am....without me actually trying

- I however have interests that are more "for guys" traditionally at least (computers, computer games, computer security, esports,... well all my interests here can be mainly summed up as computer stuff + anime/manga ._. wee) (also for some other reasons out of the scope of this post and don't feel like) are reasons that I don't really feel it's a good idea to do a full transition to become a woman.

- Personally I hate heavy heavy makeup (which disgusts me) - but here some and some there seems fine for me.. I actually kinda like women's clothing and hairstyles so that's where we differ on this

The more I think about it, "woman" doesn't sound good either. I just have this image of a person in my head which doesn't really fit any stereotype. The closest ideas I can think of are androgynous elves and angels. Here's what I'm going for:

- Long and slender: Check (I wish I were shorter but that can never change)

- Soft, hairless skin: Not yet. it's soft, but far from hairless.

- Short hair: Check

- No facial hair: Not yet. Working on this.

- Athletic: Far from it. I'm lethargic and only eat about 1200 calories a day.

- Boy-"ish" wardrobe: Check. I have the same 4-5 outfits I wear repeatedly, though. I wish I had more.

- Pierced ears: Not yet.

- Small but notable breasts: Check. 2 years of hormones. Not much, but enough to make me self-conscious as an otherwise skinny male.

- Female genitals: Obviously I don't have that.

- Androgyous voice: Kind of. I sound like a young man, and my pitch is higher depending on my mood, but no one would ever think I'm anything but male after hearing my voice.

Hmm for me I guess my target would be

- skinny - I'm already like this without trying (apparently I have an hourglass figure without trying. and my parents tried to force me to eat more but it didn't really do much ............... )

- hairless skin - I'd wish for this too, but I'm waiting till I have money to buy the stuff for that... (my money is also tied up for tech stuff @_@ haha)

- I'd rather long hair, which I have medium hair... which is about to my shoulders, but not entirely yet... I kinda want it 1.5-2 more inches or so TT

- I actually don't really care about being athletic cause I'm an indoor person, but I like to use the computer and play games so go figure

- wardrobe -> personally, my ideal situation would be wearing whatever the heck I want (either gender's) and not look weird in either although that will narrow down the girl clothes I wear to more of a tomgirl like wardrobe + boy clothes... then again most of my guy shirts are random game related tshirts, and I hate to wear men's semi formal/formal wear.......... heh

- ears -> I actually don't care about this either way. maybe I would, maybe I won't

- breasts -> I'd like it... I honestly think that if I had A-B cup size'd breasts that would be nice~ but I never talked to a gender therapist nor anything (I completely thought of everything and laid down my feelings myself so go figure) so I wouldn't have easy access to get this anyways... I guess technically I have AAA cup breasts cause I don't have any (lolol) oh well.

... only thing I'm scared of is if I do the treatment (hormone or so), and I think it grew big enough, if I stop... would the growth stop or would it keep growing... also does it suddenly get bigger? /etc ... @_@

- genitals -> honestly being a hermaphrodite would be nice, but I can stay with whatever (only problem with the one I have now is that I should have to learn how to tuck them ... wee.)

- voice -> I have a really low one atm, I would want to more andro/a bit feminine (preferably andro) but I'll probably work on this later....

[Guest jennipher]

The last two posts sound really similar to me, only difference is I'd rather default as female in public. I feel and identify as mostly androgynous, but would rather look/be identified as female.

Confusing...

[Guest akikami]

The last two posts sound really similar to me, only difference is I'd rather default as female in public. I feel and identify as mostly androgynous, but would rather look/be identified as female.

Confusing...

honestly for me, I don't care what my "default" is/would be, I just like to wear whatever I'd like without looking weird/different, which pretty much means if I wear female clothes I'd look more like a female... and some other personal reasons /shrug.

I should say I WOULD like to know about though is... um... basically if I take hormones (or that breast enlargement program that lucille sorella (?) created based on herbs?) and I decide a certain size is enough and stop it, would the breasts stop growing, or would they keep on growing...

Personally I'd prefer them not to be not so noticeable that I would lol need a binder when I want to wear clothes in the more boyish mode/or whatever you wish to call it @_@ .. although I'd wish there *to be some* still ... like I said regardless gahh

I'll probably need to find ways to feminize my face with makeup too humm... (and voice too but I'll worry about that after awhile...)

[Guest angels wings]

The last two posts sound really similar to me, only difference is I'd rather default as female in public. I feel and identify as mostly androgynous, but would rather look/be identified as female.

Confusing...

honestly for me, I don't care what my "default" is/would be, I just like to wear whatever I'd like without looking weird/different, which pretty much means if I wear female clothes I'd look more like a female... and some other personal reasons /shrug.

I should say I WOULD like to know about though is... um... basically if I take hormones (or that breast enlargement program that lucille sorella (?) created based on herbs?) and I decide a certain size is enough and stop it, would the breasts stop growing, or would they keep on growing...

Personally I'd prefer them not to be not so noticeable that I would lol need a binder when I want to wear clothes in the more boyish mode/or whatever you wish to call it @_@ .. although I'd wish there *to be some* still ... like I said regardless gahh

I'll probably need to find ways to feminize my face with makeup too humm... (and voice too but I'll worry about that after awhile...)

Hello akikami sorry but we don't discuss herbal hormones on the forum there are to many dangers you can have a read about hormones in the Transexual forum there is lots of information on the dangers . Please read

Angel

[Guest Chrysee]

Confusing...

No it's not!

And no you're not!

[Guest Luca]

The thing is, I was not a woman trapped in a man's body but rather had a woman locked away in my body.

I can't get over how much I love this. I've just found the term 'gender fluid' and I think it suits me more than anything else. I think my biggest problem isn't where I get pegged on the gender spectrum-- it's the idea of not being able to move around. I love that I can sing baritone and grow a beard, but I also love that in the right clothes I've been mistaken for a girl from behind. I'm entirely enthralled by the idea of a transition, but I don't always feel that I'm a woman. I just don't identify in one place long enough to be comfortable where I am.

[Guest Lupi]

I watched some youtube videos yesterday of trans guys who were very comfortable in their guy status except around other guys-- they couldn't interact that well socially.

Dear God... Now why does that sound familiar?

Personally I identify as a genderqueer/agendered FTM. Never did have a strong sense of gender... Just had a weird feeling that something was always 'off'.

[Guest Velanna]

Never did have a strong sense of gender... Just had a weird feeling that something was always 'off'.

Boy can I relate! Up until about the age of 14 I never really felt a sense of gender. I just was. I don't how else to put it. But at the age of 14 or so is when I started noticing feelings that I was female. Up until then I didn't really have a gender identity. But at 14 when I noticed these feeling, it was just a lot of denial, confusion, conflicting thoughts, denial again, more confusion; in that order. And until I reached 12th grade, or 17 years old, it was the same thing. But when I did start my senior year, after many years of the same old same old, I decided to do some research of my own. I found out what transgender meant and bam! I cam to accept my inevitable reality. That is until about 4 or 5 months ago when it was revealed to me that I'm actually intersex. That turned my world upside down, went through the denial, confusion, and conflicting thoughts stage again, and eventually came to terms with it not too long ago. And that's kinda where I'm at now. Even though I'm intersex, I can't help but feel like I'm really just transgender. Lived my life as male as chosen by my doctors and my poor ignorant parents, and went through the same struggles as male to female transgender women. So even though I'm intersex and will probably not face as many adversaries or difficulties in life as most transwomen do/will because I have that biological aspect in my favor, still. I'll have/and already had difficulties nonetheless. But I'm all willing to go through it all if it means correcting my life where it was wronged at birth. But who was to know anything back then? So I hold no grudge against my parents, and as hard as it was, neither against the doctors. Even though in today's times I think doctors should know better seeing that we've learned a lot as a society about the transgender and intersex community.

[Guest Alexisyoi]

I haven't really thought of this until very recently, say about 2 months ago. But I do consider myself as a transwoman and I have never considered myself male. However, I do find that I prefer to express both my feminine and masculine sides. Basically, despite me being male in appearance, I dress in women's clothing and in men's clothing and act in ways to express both sides.

Basically, I'm just wondering if this is considered androgyne or something else? I'm not entirely sure. Perhaps HRT may change things around (I don't think I would just stop being this way) but maybe be altered in some way?

Btw, I do very much dislike BEING male but I like expressing myself in a masculine way from time to time...

I just don't understand! lol

I am ftm though I sort of consider myself to be an androgynous yet manly guy. I am a guy but I was born with female genitals, estrogen in my body and all that and that is something that I can't deny have contributed to me being rather androgynous. I may act a bit feminine at times though my heart is masculine and I have no desire to be nor become a woman. 19 years in a womanly body was way more than I could take. There is nothing wrong with being androgynous; in fact I think it is great. I will never be a super butch mega hairy buff guy and that's fine. That's just not me. I will probably have biological children too. Either way, none of those things make me less of a man. I am 100% male. Only androgynous as well. No need to make it any more complicated than that. Over thinking things usually only make them harder to understand and it rarely leads anywhere

So, you being a transwoman who sometimes likes to express yourself in a masculine way is just great I think. Nothing wrong with that at all! We can't deny who we are nor who we were once born as. It may be in our past but it will stay as one of the things that made us who we are today.

[Guest Jo-I-Dunno]

I guess the bottom line is... I am transsexual in the sense that I'm taking HRT and want breasts and female genitals, but everything else about me is boyish. I gave up on finding a word for it long ago. There's no "truth" to it, and if you can't find a cause or a pattern then who cares? Confused? Just think about what you want and take it one day at a time.

I gave up on being un-labeled and decided, after seeing some people I have an insane amount in-common with, that I like the label MTF butch. I'm just a butch woman who happens to be biologically male is all. So much happier now; I feel less alone.

The main problem still stands, though: how do I get the world to see me as a woman while still dressing and acting in a traditionally masculine fashion? The way I understand it, many butch cis-women face this same problem!

[Guest Jonnycastle]

Velanna,

It sounds to me you just have a slightly "boyish" streak and I certainly see no reason you should be concerned. There is no rule that states the correct ratio of gender.

This to me is an opportunity to make more friends and personal connections. That part of you that expresses "boy-like" emotions will allow you if used correctly to identify and connect with males in a way that others might struggle.

I hope I inspired some inspiration of love and inner peace in your heart and if not just know that it's with great pleasure I wrote this.

Tomm