Christianity and transgenderism?

[Guest Jay Smooth]

Ok im jay and im a christian and i want to know what the bible says about transgenders because alot of the time i get told im going to hell alot. And i already know that it says being homosexual is an abomination but what does it say about us.

[VickySGV]

Not one blessed thing!! All the scriptures quoted against GLBT people refer to religious practices of other religons of the days in which the first goat skins were inked, back several hundred years before Christ's active life, to about two hundred years after that. By other religions, I mean non-Jewish and non -orthodox Christian or (non-Paulist Christians) religions. We have plenty of discussion on the good scriptures, that while not specifically toward GLBT, are toward the inclusion of ALL people in these relgions here in other posts on this forum where this topic belongs.

[Guest lostflower]

Specifically not a single thing

Ignorance of LGBT issues is rife in organised religion, mix it with stagnant, dogmatic thinking, teaching methods and philosophy, so I think you know what to expect

In general most major christian groups see us as either like homosexuals only moreso or in the case of the catholics as mentally ill and homosexual

Although the vaticans official position on someone like me who identifies as a Lesbian is a little rocky to say the least I wonder how many Scottish catholic men get married in a skirt.....oops I mean kilt

I was raised in an atheist household so I wasn't brought up believing in any superstition, so your churches official position is entirely up to them and it will be either tolerance (and I do mean tolerance not acceptance) or they'll call you an abomination too

[Guest Raging Shadow]

don't think it says anything. most people seem to twist scripture to support their personal belifs/agendas (whether good or bad)

. also, because there are SO many different branches of christianity, some are more liberal than others.

i personally identify as no denominational. I believe in Christ and all, but I don't want to get lumped in with some other followers. I was quite unhappy with Christianity for a while because all I saw were hypocrites teaching predjudice instead of love and I didn't want the association. I'd like to think my transition has helped me grow. certainly closer to God then I used to be

[Guest Melissa~]

Due to translational issues, the bible is silent as far as direct transexual reference. I do believe some of the translations out there are clear in that the old laws, nor jesus was against eunuchs, at all. It does in fact place righteous eunuchs in heaven. There are a few expansive translations that make this very clear, to make it to heaven you must love yourself, and sometime that does involve modifying the body.

I'm not religious just aware of the references out there.

[Guest ckoa97]

It doesn't say anything about trans people. Even those quotes about gay people were labeled as being gay until years after they were written.

[Guest ~Lana~]

Hello Jay

Have a look at Lee Heller's essay's

www.http://drbecky.com/grace.html

Happy Reading!

[Guest Angelica Alice]

Well, my mom told me if I don't want to go to hell then I might as well not die cause hell is the grave. Not sure what she means by that but I know changing your sex organs or any organs is not ok and a sin.

[Guest Megan_Lynn]

Well, my mom told me if I don't want to go to hell then I might as well not die cause hell is the grave. Not sure what she means by that but I know changing your sex organs or any organs is not ok and a sin.

So by this logic then anyone whom has a heart, liver, kidney, ect transplant is sinning. Never once did Christ speak out against anyone gay, lesbian or trans. True christians know the old tesiment is just that old. the new testiment tells us how to live and love. The old is now a tool for the wicked to twist to spread their fears and hate. The best lies are 90 percent truth. Evil will misrepresent rules and laws to further its agenda. And oh how it loves to use so call christians to do it.

[Guest Clair Dufour]

Here is an interesting collection of papers on the subject. http://epistle.us/homobible.html One point he makes is that children not respecting their parents is an abomanation too.

[Guest Angelica Alice]

Don't get me involved!!! I'm just saying what my mom said, she's not Christmas soo yeah. Doesn't mean that I believe in it.

[Guest DanD]

Jesus warned not to judge others. it was one of those things he said many times in different ways, so youd think he must have meant it to make an impression. He also hated liars and hypocrites, and some other things along those lines.

He was real big on things like "Love your neighbor" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".

That does not include telling people theyre going to hell, one of the biggest No-no's in the christian world is to do that; he warned strongly against doing that very thing.

[gennee]

The bible says nothing about transgender people. I've done a study about this and about LGBT in particular. The Hebrew texts say nothing about transgender people. Eunuchs are mentioned in the old and new testaments. In Isaiah 56 verse 3 to 5, eunuchs were included into the fellowship of God. Jesus in Matthew 19, verses 10 to 12, covered the subject. It wasn't an issue with him. The most important issue is our relationship with God, not our gender or sexuality.

[Guest Madison_Always]

There is this pastor and his name is Sy Rogers. He was at my church recently. The unique thing about Sy is that about thirty years ago he was only months away from srs to go from genetic male to female. He says the reason he didn't go through with it was because he had an encounter with God. His story is very troubled and his childhood was awful. He has been married to his wife for thirty years now. I'm sure you could find it on the internet. Anyway his message is that there is only one reason someone goes to hell, and that is not accepting the free gift of eternal life by believing and trusting in what Jesus did on the cross. He, in my opinion, does not judge anyone and simply believes that if you have a strong relationship with God you will live already live a virtuous life. He also has several YouTube videos that discuss things relating to transgender people. Be warned you may not agree with everything he says, but as far as mainstream Christian leaders I think he really gets what it is to have to live with being trans.

[Guest Sarinah]

There are no verses specifically about trans people. The concept didnt exist as we know it. Trans people were either labeled as homosexual, eunichs, or some cross gender label such as effeminate.

The Bible is a universal guide to living not because it has the same answers for everyone but because every individual can find the answers that they personally need. Its about having a relationship with God. If you accept grace and have a relationship with God than he will show you what he wants you to learn from the Bible as you read it.

-Evalyn

[Guest TiredTraveler]

I want to take the OP's question in a slightly different direction. Not all Christian communities are purely bible-based in terms of their ethic. That is, the mere fact that something is not mentioned in the Bible does not mean there is no grounds for calling it sinful or spiritually unhealthy. Neither does the absence of something from the Bible imply that it is wrong (that is, the tendency among some towards reactionary behavior is also poor theological reasoning).

Drinking and Driving is not mentioned as a sin in the Bible; given the amount of irresponsibility it demonstrates and the lives it puts at risk, though, one can clearly identify it as immoral on the basis of things that ARE mentioned in the Bible (e.g. the command to preserve life).

Historically, Christian communities have rejected the practice of castration or intentional self-sterilization; this, for the more traditionalist churches (e.g. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, conservative Anglican, etc.) would tend to be the basis on which they object to a transsexual transitioning to his or her identified gender.

In the past, though, these restrictions against castration / sterility were targeted at some of the more philosophically extreme elements in late antiquity. Some groups (on the basis of Plato) viewed all of the material world as inherently "negative" or "bad." Christians, in contrast, were remarkably positive on the material world (because Christians believe that God took on matter and became human). It is an ironic twist of history that, today, Christians are accused of (and often, without knowing it, represent) precisely the negative attitude towards matter which, formerly, they so valiantly resisted. Many Christians today continue to resist those negative and dis-embodying attitudes as unhealthy and contrary to the faith.

Regardless, some of those who rejected the material world as "negative" rejected marriage and sex right along with it. That got combined with some other late antique philosophies that praised self-control as a means of spiritual purity, so that, again, sex was viewed as bad.

The Christians, though, wanted none of that. While they supported and celebrated those who, by God's calling, chose to lead a celibate life, the Christians encoded into their church law (called "canon law") restrictions against sterility and castration precisely to AFFIRM the goodness of sex and marriage against the "cultural winds" of the day.

The point was this: the material world is good, and life is good. We should value, in all ways possible, life.

Since, in the Christian world view, God has given to us bodies capable of producing life, we should guard that as a gift. Self-castration rejects the gift of life and is, on that basis, spiritually unhealthy (a sin).

That is, in a nut-shell, the argument against transitioning from a traditionalist Christian standpoint.

I would add, though, that this is an extrapolation from an ancient canon that targeted not transsexuals per-say but radical Greek pagan philosophy. Rather different things! Furthermore, given the suicide rates within the transgendered community, there is a very real, very important life-concern that argues in favor of transitioning.

As this is highly relevant to me personally, I've been thinking of ways to approach the question that are acceptable from within a traditionalist Christian framework.

So far as I know, traditionalist churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc.) show incredible sympathy towards intersex individuals as having a medical condition which, like other medical conditions, warrants whatever necessary medical attention one might require. If someone is intersex, and they chose to present as one gender or the other, this would not remove them from the Church or compromise their spiritual health - it would be viewed as normal, healthy behavior.

If one recognizes the brain as a body part which, like the genitals, expresses sex-differences, then transsexuals are, in a real sense, intersex. They have one body part matching one sex and other body parts matching another sex. This situation seems analogous to the one outlined above and would, on that basis, morally justify transitioning.

I could say more but I've probably already said enough.

I'd like to make the following clear, though, as I recognize that the above may be controversial: I am, in no way, attempting to instruct others here how to behave or how to live their lives. The above are my current thoughts, as a Christian, and they are not merely intellectual but deeply personal (as you can tell by the very fact that I'm posting here). They're more my "working through" the issues in my own heart than an attempt to prescribe my answers on to others. I am a traditionalist Christian; I value Christian history, and continuity with that history, as a critical component of my faith and, therefore, of my identity. Because of that, I've studied that history a fair amount, and felt I had something to share about the possible historical roots of Christian resistance to transsexuals transitioning; I'm not advocating for a simplistic understanding of (or application of) that history. These are just really, really deep questions. They grip me.

Please forgive me if I offend.

[Guest Alternative Emo]

@TiredTraveler

Your post was very informative. Are you non denominational? I've heard a lot of what you said from my old pastor. I'd like to respond to this but am busy ATM. Thank you for posting that. I'll try to answer that as soon as I can.

-cheers

[gennee]

Tired Traveler reminds me that we need to look at the scriptures from the perspective of the particular time it was written. In April I will discuss transgender and cross dressing in a radio broadcast. I'm sure that Christianity and transgenderism will be discussed also. I sense that as transgender people have become more visible this topic will be a hot button issue.

[Guest RachelAnn]

In my church, which belongs to a denomination that numbers 400,000 members in the US and another 150,000 worldwide, we teach and believe the Bible to be the inerrant Word of God. Our pastors learn both ancient Hebrew and Greek in seminary, so they are capable of reading the actual languages the Bible was originally written. Our confessions - those things which we hold to be true - are seen by the world as being "old fashioned", "naive", and "ultra-conservative".

Shortly after I had found out what I had felt all my life was REAL, I went to my pastor and poured my soul out to him, holding back on nothing. It took about an hour, with me crying a good portion of it. At the end of all that, my pastor - in his 40s and a very reserved and proper Godly man - looked at me and said:

"You've done nothing, wrong. In fact, you are to be commended for taking care of yourself, your body, and your family."

You see, the thing is that being born transgendered is no more a "choice" than being born blind, deaf, blonde, or left-handed is a "choice". And if, as a believer in God, you see your body as a temple, then taking care of it to the glory of God is a good thing. True, he counseled, I would not be able to make a full transition, but not because of any restrictions. Rather, I should not transition completely (what my doctors recommend) because of promises I made. Promises to be a husband to my wife and a father to my children. Were I a single person, he said, then SRS would be a proper path to take, provided it was medically recommended and financially feasible. As a husband and a father, though, I needed to uphold my word and serve my wife and sons to the best of my ability in those roles. (Look at Jesus' example: Authority is a means to serve God and others, NOT have others serve you.)

My pastor was one of my guides through my transition. He counselled with other pastors in our denomination and was given encouragement. (Though not a lot of specific advice; he was a real pioneer in this area.) He was there to help me keep my balance through HRT, as well as my focus on caring for my family. After I had an orchiectomy, I asked him (again), if I had done the right thing. Without hesitation he said yes. He continues to be my pastor, and my friend, to this day.

Oh, and the story of the Philip and eunuch in the Bible? That's in Acts 8:26-40. If you choose to read it, note these things:
1. An angel of the Lord sent Philip to meet the eunuch. This was no chance meeting.
2. They traveled together, studying the Scriptures (Isaiah 53), with Philip telling him about Jesus.
3. When the chariot came to some water, the eunuch asked to be baptized, which Philip gladly did.
4. After Philip was whisked away by the Spirit, the eunuch went on his way, rejoicing.

The Lord used this eunuch - what some people today would call a mutilated man - to spread the Good News to Ethiopia. God not only worked through Philip to tell the world about his Son, he used the eunuch, too. Again, I'm not intending to get preachy here; I'm just telling you what is really in the Bible.

TTFN!

Rachel

[Guest Jaques]

A public convenience said it all to me the other day - someone had written "Christ is Lord of ALL" on the back of the toilet door! Sometimes I feel the established churches just dont get it......................

[Guest Tamar]

I feel that ALL the time Jaques. To me, the person who has retired to solitude and communned with spirit has a far greater understanding of spiritual truth as it pertains to them than any teacher could provide. Heck, even Jesus did it before starting his ministry, as did many of the well knowñ teachers of history. In my opinion, scriptures are someones attempt to express the indescribable, and as such, while useful guides, fall far short of what is real.

[Guest Jaques]

Yes Tamar, even the Buddha got it wrong, spending years half starving himself and living in a way he thought he would attain enlightenment - then he realised going to extremes didnt help, so he took the middle path, neither indulging nor neglecting himself. And he also was reputed to have told his followers not to follow nor listen to him but to take their time, look inside and listen to their own mind (heart) rather than their head, that way they would know truth for themsleves - i think it also says in the bible "be still and know that I am God" - which amounts, i feel, to the same thing. There are many biblical references about not judging one another - in the end, i feel we are our own judges and will reap the rewards, whether negative or positive for our behaviour - that we come back into this world in what ever mode, be it insect, animal, human, because of the way we have lived in our previous lives and will face many trials and tribulations, including struggling with our bodies whether it be an illness, disability, etc. I feel, for myself, having gender difficulties may also be attributed to karma.

its a shame that all references to reincarnation were removed from the bible - in 325 AD the roman emporor constantine was said to have deleted references to reincarnation declaring it a heresy. Other major religions of course still accept that we do have many lives, as do some Christians. but Christianity is about truth, love and compassion so I feel that any organisation who turns their backs on their fellow men because they were born with gender dysphoria may as well do so because someone is born with any physical or mental abnormality. I dont need anyone or any religion to tell me what im doing is right or wrong, its down to me - if im wrong about anything and deliberately do harm to myself or anyone else, then it will be me who pays the price...........

[Guest skittles413]

wow, some really great stuff posted here. Thanks for sharing everyone. I found this article last month http://johnharmstrong.typepad.com/john_h_armstrong_/2009/09/transgendered-persons-and-the-christian-faith.html

I really enjoyed it. She hits the main points pretty well I think

Corbin

droppingfigleaves.com

[VickySGV]

Corbin ---Some of this is a little dated and hopefully "M" has changed some views along with it. Since the time it was written (4 years + ago) the Episcopal Church USA has changed it's canons in regard to Transgender people and includes them at the highest levels of clergy and laiety. Not only have two bishops of the church been gay/lesbian, but there are a goodly number of Trans* clergy as well. "M's" view of celibacy is her own choice, and I honor her for it as her life, but with the Church's ratification of a Liturgy for blessing monogamous GLBT unions in 2012, celibacy is not now the only choice for GLBT folks.