Hormones to Feminize Myself

[Guest FruitOfTheLoom]

So my name is Peter Sanderson, i am a gay male, 19, a student of massage in Los Angeles and i needed some feedback with a decision i made a bit back.

I enjoy being Androgynous and i aimed to make myself more so by taking small doses of Spirotone and Progynova. I buy these online and have been on them for about a month and a half and i need to purchase more soon if i am going to continue to take them.

The results so far are that my face and body (i feel at least) has been slightly more feminized, the only result that i knew would happen, but didnt need (personally) is that my nipples hurt and are a tiny bit bigger, which is fine since they are still male looking (no breasts for me yet).

I do not wish to go M to F but i do wish to keep feminizing my body, i was hoping people could give me some information about possible negative side effects of doing such a thing (hard facts people =] ) or any feedback. All of my support has been from a beautiful Transgendered friend who suggested i do it. I do not have much more information outside of that.

Thanks. =]

[Guest Sophie Jean]

Hi Peter, and welcome to the forums.

I got some of the following information from Wikipedia on Spiro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spironolactone):

Adverse effects and interactions

Spironolactone is associated with an increased risk of bleeding from the stomach and duodenum, but a causal relationship between the two has not been established.[3] Since it also affects steroid receptors elsewhere in the body, it can cause gynecomastia, menstrual irregularities and testicular atrophy. Other side effects include ataxia, erectile dysfunction, drowsiness and rashes. A carcinogenic effect has been demonstrated in rats. Spironolactone has been shown to be immunosuppressive in the treatment of sarcoidosis.[4]

People using this drug should avoid salt substitutes containing potassium.[5]

I need to stress that the hormone balance in the body is a very delicate thing, and getting it seriously out of kilter can kill you. If you are going to take any form of hormone supplements or blockers, please make sure you have a doctor that knows your goals and is monitoring you. There are a lot of invisible lethal things that can happen, and not everyone's body reacts the same ways to the same meds.

The other thing I recommend is to get in touch with a gender therapist. There are a lot more aspects to gender transition (becoming physically androgyne is a gender transition) that just changing your body. And in addition, she will have good resources to help you live as the person you know you are.

- Sophie Jean

[Guest Sophie Jean]

I think we can give some good advice here. There may be a lot of other people contemplating the same thing, not knowing the dangers involved of self-medicating.

[Zufrieden]

Hi Peter:

If I read your post correctly, you're taking progynova (estradiol valerate, an estrogen) and spirotone (spironolactone, an anti-androgen) but don't want to get female breasts?

Most genetic males who take an estrogen and an anti-androgen are trying to go the whole way. I've no information on people who are trying to tread a delicate line of not going "too far". I don't think it would be easy without lab tests. Moreover, since most of the effects are cumulative and sneak up on you you might go further than you expect.

I think to get any objective changes in skin or hair, you would have to embark on a regular MTF transsexual regimen. I don't really know how low dosage for a month and a half could have any perceptible effect on your face.

If you go for a regular MTF regimen you will eventually see permanent breast growth, a decline in libido, potency and fertility and genital atrophy. Do you really want this? Do you want to be like your friend the transsexual? Do you want to have female breasts for the next 50 years of your life? It's Ok if you do, but think before making a decision like this. You really can't play around with hormones.

We're not sticking our heads in the sand, but it's the policy of these forums (Rules & Regs Rule Q) not to encourage unsupervised medication.

Hope this helped.

Z.

[Petra Jane]

You really can't play around with hormones.

We're not sticking our heads in the sand, but it's the policy of these forums (Rules & Regs Rule Q) not to encourage unsupervised medication.

This is true and we strongly recommend that you SEEK MEDICAL ADVICE immediately! Anyone who advises you on dosage on unsupervised/un-prescribed medication, if not a practising doctor, is doing so illegally! You must seek professional medical advice as a matter or urgency!

As Z said, the rules here prohibit anyone here for discussing specific dosages and definitely prohibit encouraging the taking of unproscribed drugs/hormones, it's illegal for a non-medical professional to do so!

[Guest Mani]

My suggestion: Stop taking the hormones untill you are under doctor surpervision. Becides just being illegal, it is also dangerous for many reasons. Find a gender therapist, perferably one who is androgyne friendly. Talk to the therapist about feminizing your appearance, about what you do want and what you don't want. Also, once you get to the stage of getting the perscription from the doctor, make sure you are both clear on what you want, don't want, and what would likely happen.

It is possible to feminize your body to become more androgynous, but it is not pratical to to this on your own. The hormones affect everyone's body differently, and without a doctor you could end up with results you don't want, or you could injure your body, and there is a possibilty of death especially with stuff from the black market (by my definition: any place where you can get something that is normally illegal to get, including the internet), which is not controlled so whoever is selling it can put whatever they want into it.

~Mani

[Guest FruitOfTheLoom]

Well is there a person i could seek in LA who would understand what i am trying to do? I am taking the low doses but i will stop if everyone feels they are so dangerous "without a doctors approval". Is there like some sort of hormone test that says how much i can and cannot take or what? I mean im taking only a bit less then my Transexual friend, will taking a bit less then her kill me? In the long run i wouldnt have a problem having breasts, i just want to be happy and be an equal part male to equal part female =[. Im so confused about all of this.

[MaryEllen]

Hello Peter,

Taking hormones without being under a doctors supervision is very dangerous. What is a safe level for one person could be very toxic to another. There are tests that can determine what a safe level of hormones would be for you but only a qualified doctor could do that. Some of the risks of unsupervised hormone taking are thrombosis (blood clots), liver disease, stroke and heart attack. Think long and hard on this. You're gambling with your life. I can well understand your confusion. Seeing a qualified gender therapist will give you a lot of the answers you need to know. I would urge you to do this.

MaryEllen

[Zufrieden]

Hi Peter:

I think that's the most important thing is not to take action on something when you're confused.

Gender is a difficult subject, there are long-term convictions, short-term desires and outright fantasies.

If you're not 100% sure in your mind, you really should seek a professional to help you sort this out.

L.A. is a big city and I'm sure they've plenty of everything. I think talking about finding somebody who understands what you want to do is putting the solution before the problem. The first step is to keep an open mind and not to dwell on solutions until you know what the problem is.

Z.

[Guest FruitOfTheLoom]

Ok thanks for all your input, ill try and find someone in person to talk to about this, are there really therapists who will understand? I dont have much experience with therapists but im so afraid they wont understand what i want to be. =[

Im just super confused about all this. =(

[MaryEllen]

Yes. There are therapists that will understand. Try this link and scroll down to California. You'll find a list of California therapists. Good luck.

http://www.lauras-playground.com/gender_therapists.htm

MaryEllen

[Guest Kaimialana]

From what I have heard, there doesn't seem to be any recognition. I was ready to start hormones unsupervised until my friends who I told said not to. I probably will never take any, simply because I am afraid of doctors, hospitals, and syringes, cannot have a conversation with a therapist or psychologist without feeling like they are being condecending and patronizing, and I doubt either of those groups recognizes non-binary gender.

In otherwords, even though I want to, and I was completly decided and ready to, its not going to happen.

[princecharmless]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6318043.stm

Apparently lavender and tea tree oil have feminising properties (just threw my tea tree oil shampoo out lol)

[Guest FruitOfTheLoom]

Heh thanks for that, to bath and body works i go? Im also very bad with face care products, any tips to looking a bit more Androgynous? =]

[Guest Zenda]

Hi FOTL, get your eyes brows plucked you will be amazed at the change this will make to your facial appearance.

Metta Jendar

[Zufrieden]

Hi Jendar:

That's pretty good advice on the eyebrows.

But besides having a professional do it, how you can you do something that still looks roughly natural?

When I sse woman with completely shaven eyebrows and penciled in substitutes, I think they look like aliens.

The same goes for women with dramatically thinned eyebrows so that they're at a 45 degree angle.

I just don't want to look like Andy Rooney!

Now that I look at my eyebrows (probably for the first time in my life) I realize that they're practically like droopy little mustaches.

I'm going to have to keep my eyes open what non-vampire women do.

Z.

Z.

[Guest Zenda]

Kiaora Z and FOTL Everything in moderation this includes eyebrow plucking, just lightly plucked will create a slight change in ones appearence.....By the way it was a spelling error on my part ie,'eyes' brows plucked' please don't take it literally [otherwise without eyes one wouldn't really care what one looked like]

Metta Jendar

[Guest Link48010]

I think you should try cosmetic changes before you touch hormones. change aspects of your hair, face, clothes, etc. to look more feminin. Hormones are a dangerous and thin rope to walk, and although I don't know much about them myself, I do know some of the side effects, infertility is one, I don't suggest any hormones if you plan on still having kids. Your breasts will continue to hurt and become bigger as well. Again I suggest not going down this path. I myself can look considerably more female if I wanted. It's rather easy with some cover and a bit of foundation makeup. Hormones can be very hard on your body and give lasting, very negative results, certain hormones can cause side effects in conjunction with something as small as a cup of coffee and can kill you. Some hormones are high in potassium and depending on how much potassium your body makes naturally can put you in cardiac arrest. I'm the son of a medical doctor, and the brother of a respiratory therapist, I've been in and out of the hospital, for my own surgeries as well as others many times, and I've educated myself a lot about the human body for my own sake. take my advice seriously, please don't use hormones unless you are making a full transition to a female. Trust me, some makeup, some teeth work to make them even if they aren't already, and a hairstyle change can easily switch *anyones* gender.

[Guest farawaysun]

I agree with the above post! I've been able to accomplish a lot simply through cosmetic changes. A year ago I wouldn't have been considered "androgynous" in the least, but I've plucked my eyebrows, changed my hairstyle, changed my wardrobe, and am starting to experiment with makeup and it's definitely given me a dramatically more feminine appearance. In fact, the girl at Panda Express said "how are you, miss?" just yesterday! :S (To which I replied "I'm quite alright, sir!")

[Guest Link48010]

In fact, the girl at Panda Express said "how are you, miss?" just yesterday! :S (To which I replied "I'm quite alright, sir!")

....... wow O.o, never been mistaken myself

[Guest Karen-1954]

Taking any prescriptiom med without medical supervision is dangerous. Besides all the risks that others have mentioned there are also dangers of interactions with other foods and medications. An example is Spiro, it is a potassium sparing diuretic and if you are not carefull you can end up with too much potassium which can be fatal. Try the cosmetic approach first while you seek a therapist and doctor if hormones are where you end up.

[Guest androgynous]

I read about "Hops" also the natural Phytohormones found in Hop plants, they seem to be an alternative with the same result as synthetic hormones and are not illegal, you can but them anywhere and they are cheap, about ** a year to get changing results.

I did have the idea to change my gender a little bit with Hops, but not completely, anyone a suggestion if this is a good idea? to be neutral body wise as well? That would be such a good idea if it works, 50% male 50% female.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I read about "Hops" also the natural Phytohormones found in Hop plants, they seem to be an alternative with the same result as synthetic hormones and are not illegal, you can but them anywhere and they are cheap, about 50$ a year to get changing results.

I did have the idea to change my gender a little bit with Hops, but not completely, anyone a suggestion if this is a good idea? to be neutral body wise as well? That would be such a good idea if it works, 50% male 50% female.

I tried every protoestrogen herb and food I could find - for fifty years. They may sustain existing feminine characteristics, but they won't develop new ones or increase old ones.

They make your urine more yellowish - as your liver dumps them outta your blood strean - same as it does with unused vitamins. Thats about it.

I suggest it is a waste of money to use that stuff... by the way, soy is probably one of the strongest protoestrogens, its cheap and easily available. So use soy if you still want to try herbs and foods for natural estrogen-like content- don't make the internet sellers rich by buying a product that you can get at the supermarket or health food store.

But only true estogen will work for feminization of the body. NEVER use it without medical supervision. ALWAYS be legal. You can easily damage your liver or circulatory system.

My opinion

From your Great Aunt Lizzy

[Guest androgynous]

I tried every protoestrogen herb and food I could find - for fifty years. They may sustain existing feminine characteristics, but they won't develop new ones or increase old ones.

They make your urine more yellowish - as your liver dumps them outta your blood strean - same as it does with unused vitamins. Thats about it.

I suggest it is a waste of money to use that stuff... by the way, soy is probably one of the strongest protoestrogens, its cheap and easily available. So use soy if you still want to try herbs and foods for natural estrogen-like content- don't make the internet sellers rich by buying a product that you can get at the supermarket or health food store.

But only true estogen will work for feminization of the body. NEVER use it without medical supervision. ALWAYS be legal. You can easily damage your liver or circulatory system.

My opinion

From your Great Aunt Lizzy

I just sent her an email, I also read her story a bit further, and she says that she now has breasts totally due to hop usage, even the body hair will be gone and turned into fluffy hairs (which doesn't happen with synthetic hormones she said) She also said that she completely transformed due to hops use, even sexual experience in totally changed for her, her male genitals did shrunk a bit she also mentioned. I wonder then why it works for her? she doesn't sell anything, she buys the hops granular (which is compressed Hop) in a local store I read.

I'll await her answer, send here a couple of questions

[Guest androgynous]

Also found this research:

Hops have phyto-estrogen.

Researchers from King's College, UK, identified a potent phytoestrogen in hops,

8-prenylnaringenin, which has an activity greater than other established plant

estrogens. 8-Prenylnaringenin competed strongly with 17ss-estradiol for binding to

both the alpha- and ss-estrogen receptors. [4] Its strong estrogenic activity was also

reflected in its relative binding affinity to estrogen receptors from rat uteri. This

phytoestrogen can also be detected in beer containing hops, but the levels are low.

[2]

The difference seems, as Irene told that the Hop binds as well on alpha and the ss-estrogen, whereas the synthetic only 1. hence the reason why Hop use will result in retarding hair growth. I also read that they use Hop in breast creme as well. Maybe it's not that bad at all?

Just looking into it, I'm always eager to look for a natural way