How About Asking An Actual Mormon?

[MaryEllen]

If there's anymore off topic rhetoric, this thread will be closed

[Guest Jenn348]

I just know when I talked with the local bishop about transitioning, he kindly told me to please stop, and offered reparative therapy. That alone took away any desire to become active again, even though I believe in a lot of their doctrine. I don't believe I could go back without being judged. And it would also cause fear and anxiety among many of the members of the ward. I would not feel welcome. Attending a ward for the first time, when you don't know anyone, is hard enough.

Here is my question:

Since I'm saving money for GRS, what would be the chance I could be a part of the ward, or not be excommunicated?

Jenny

How did you approach the bishop on the issue? Specifically, how did you explain gender identity to him and how did you present the need to transition?

In my experience, leaders need a crash course in the medical side of this issue followed by evidence of medical necessity for any such procedure/hormones/etc. The handbook says a disciplinary council 'may' be necessary for transitioners, but evidence of medical necessity will show that the transition isn't just being done for reasons of perversion or some sexual thrill, and is therefore not sinful.

But, then again, no guarantees. There are bigoted local leaders out there who you might need to bypass by talking directly to a stake president or higher leader. YMMV

[Guest Jenn348]

is it true a mormon male can have several wives - but a female can have only one husband? If so why? I may be mixing this up with that other religion where they live in villages, i cant think of the name of them, they go around in horse drawn buggies.

Are mormons seen as a cult rather than a religion?

Sorry for the delay in response.

Currently, no, Mormons cannot have multiple wives. Pre-1890, that was the case, but it was not something an individual man just chose to do. The leaders would basically issue an order for a man to go find more wives. The scriptural justification for this is that the purpose of polygamy was to increase the population more rapidly as needed and only as commanded by God.

When polygamy was outlawed and later the church decided to comply and end the practice, many members left the church and formed splinter groups who practice polygamy to this day.

In some ways, polygamy is practiced still, but only one wife on the earth at a time. For example, a man's wife dies and he finds another wife and marries her. This is still somewhat polygamous because we don't believe in "til death do us part" marriages, they are considered eternal.

When it was practiced, it was only men who had multiple spouses and not women with multiple husbands, but I have heard stories of women whose husband died and they got clearance to get eternally married to another man...so in the next life the polygamy may run both ways. Who knows

As for the "cult" label, that is usually applied by people of other faiths who want to bash us for whatever reason. This is usually because the professional pastor feels threatened by the fact that there are so few paid positions in the LDS church and if we spread too far, he'd be out of a job

Hope that answers your questions. Feel free to ask more.

[Guest Xeriis]

Assuming there is a god, wouldn't it still be his opinion we should be worried about and not that of a church head?

This is exactly how I feel, it is a big assumption but if true then yes it is their opinion that matters, not that of the church. This I believe to be universally true of all faiths.

It sounds to me as if you are apologising to them for being trans

None of us asked to be this way.

Hannah

The LDS church is just trying to clean up their image with these efforts - WHY ? There must be perception problems, they must feel a need to correct a perception of being narrow minded in the first place. I don't think PR campaigns are going to do much really. People will have their opinions about this and it's not going to change anytime soon from within, sorry. The person that posted here may have found some way to work within the church and that's great, go for it, it's your life. Having endured their culture growing up in the church (60,70's), I would have never brought up these topics to any church officials. Knowing this now, it's like why bother ? From their own website referenced here in this post,

Where the Church stands:

"The experience of same-sex attraction is a complex reality for many people. The attraction itself is not a sin, but acting on it is. Even though individuals do not choose to have such attractions, they do choose how to respond to them. With love and understanding, the Church reaches out to all God’s children, including our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters".

So you can be gay or lesbian, but you just can't act on it ? Sorry this is nothing but a culture to panders to openness but at the end of day "you are a sinner".

I had some bad experiences with the LDS church, they used guilt a lot as a way to make you comply. You were judged with your peers in your quorum (group) a lot, somebody was always looking down upon you, uggg. What a manipulative experience, not very peaceful. I realized I did'nt need others to tell me what to do with my life by age 15. God answered me, told me to get away, and it was for the best. I have kept my spirituality and faiths to myself now, for some folks it's best to just not go there.

Respectfully

Cynthia -

Assuming there is a god, wouldn't it still be his opinion we should be worried about and not that of a church head?

is it true a mormon male can have several wives - but a female can have only one husband? If so why? I may be mixing this up with that other religion where they live in villages, i cant think of the name of them, they go around in horse drawn buggies.

Are mormons seen as a cult rather than a religion?

I just know when I talked with the local bishop about transitioning, he kindly told me to please stop, and offered reparative therapy. That alone took away any desire to become active again, even though I believe in a lot of their doctrine. I don't believe I could go back without being judged. And it would also cause fear and anxiety among many of the members of the ward. I would not feel welcome. Attending a ward for the first time, when you don't know anyone, is hard enough.

Here is my question:

Since I'm saving money for GRS, what would be the chance I could be a part of the ward, or not be excommunicated?

Jenny

I very much hope that anything I say here does not affect how others view or treat me on the forums or in chat.

I would like that thank Jenn348 for starting this topic and for what she has already shared. As many people have posted concerns here I would merely like to address those to the best of my ability. I have tagged everyone's posts who I felt had real concerns or questions and were sincere about asking. I have also tagged everyone to hopefully bring it to their attention that I trying to answer their questions and I hope I haven't left anyone out. Also so I have a direct reference to your posts and don't have to reread the entire topic to find them. My responses will be in my next post, which will be Extremely long (and will take most of the day), but I will break it up into topics and hopefully it will be easy to navigate to whatever question or concern you've expressed. I will add many quotes, stories and examples in an effort to try help others. I hope you'll read more, but certainly do not expect you to do so.

I very much hope that anything I say here does not affect how others view or treat me on the forums or in chat. While I will express many views of my religion, I in no way am trying to 'push' or 'force' any of my beliefs on anyone. I am more than willing to answer questions to those who have them. Outside of this forum I will never mention my religion, unless I am directly asked a question about such. I am more than happy to PM or chat about it, but will only do so as long as there are good feelings about such. As soon as hate or anger is brought into the discussion I will simply ask that we move the discussion to a forum topic so we can better prepare our questions and myself, my responses. Thank you to all those who will read this and are understanding in such.

I little about myself as I feel it is important you know a little about myself and my involvement in the church and how it pertains to my life. I was born into a very large family (7 kids, of which I'm the oldest, comprised of full, half & step siblings). I grew up in the LDS (Mormon) church and while growing up I made friends from all sects and groups of people. For the most part, I never fit in with the normal 'mormon' group of kids and was always a bit of an outcast. I simply moved past that and made friends where I could (some being many other mormons who never fit in with the normal group). If you wanted to be me friend, then I was more than happy about it. Growing up I've always wished more than anything I was born female and over the years developed major self-hated issues. I hated what I saw in the mirror (even in excellent shape), but thought there was no way to change this so I tried to move past this and live my life. I found out what a transsexual was in early 2012 and realized there were other people who felt like I did. Knowing how I've always felt, I have tried to be accepting of everyone, although I never always knew how to go about doing so. I went on a mission and was one of those missionaries you saw walking door to door or riding their bicycle. I enjoyed my mission and spent most of my free time on it reading, seeking more knowledge about anything and everything. While on my mission I bought The Qur'an and also read a lot about other religions. If I was asked a question, even if the person was extremely and and seemed to hate me, as long as they were sincere and seemed they actually wanted an answer (and not an argument) I would write the question down and would seek out an answer and later return to them to tell them my findings. Often they were surprised that I came back even after everything they had said and much less angry that I took the time to answer their questions. The majority of these people were not 'converted', but I still felt good about what I've done and hope that I've at least given these people a different view of the church. After my mission my life has slowly fallen apart.... twice (that is a story I've shared a couple times elsewhere), but it has brought me to where I am today and for that I am glad. My mission made me a lot less shy and more open with myself and others. Since then I have slowly become inactive in the church (attends very little or never). I never stopped believing, I simply had trouble fitting in, feeling like I belonged. I always felt there was something wrong with myself and I grew to hate myself more and more. I am slowly starting to accept myself and am very grateful for reading Jenn348's post as it has brought me peace concerning my beliefs. I have not always done everything a 'good mormon' should do. I have done a lot, much that I wish I hadn't. I have found myself often at places in life and wished I was elsewhere. I hated being where I was, but did not know where I should be. I have made the decision twice to end it all and each time something has happened that has given me pause and made me re-think my life. I have always been raised that if you do something, you do it right. If you're attempting/trying something, then you are simply approaching with the intention of failing; failure isn't tolerated. I was 100% sure of my decision both times and I know it wasn't an accident I found something each time that made me reconsider. It is at this point in my life that I've decided to share my story and to reach out to any and to all.

I am not afraid to answer people's questions, no matter how personal they may be. So if you ask a question be sure you actually want an answer. This often makes others uncomfortable and I'm trying to be better about that, but like the advice I've heard so often on here, that ultimately is their problem and not mine. I will share most anything in my life and hope no one thinks less of me for doing so.

[Guest Xeriis]

In an effort to keep myself in the right mindset I made a list of songs I've always found peace in, in hopes that I will keep anything said here just that, peaceful and positive. Everything I say here is my own opinion, in no way is it meant to represent the view or stance of the church.

I will talk simply about the questions presented, myself and how I've come to accept where I am in relation to religion. To any other more general questions I would refer you to one of the church's two websites: www.mormon.org or www.lds.org

If you're not comfortable visiting the sites, I'm more than happy to talk.

The church will sometimes state its stance on different subjects as well as give advice to help better our lives (a stance and advice is not the same thing, so be aware which one you're reading). We learn basic principles growing up (hopefully good), but ultimately it's our decision on how we choose to live our lives.

"We live in a world where finding fault in others seems to be the favorite blood sport." "Whenever we meet anyone, our first, almost unconscious reaction may be to look for imperfections." "If we look for human frailty in humans, we will always find it." ~Henry B. Eyring (one of the leaders of the church)

In the church I've learned that while I may not approve of the way someone else is living their life, that doesn't give me the right to dismiss that person as a whole. I should try to be understanding and accept the person for who they are. Someone who appears to be neglectful or rude, may simply be going through a lot of things in their life. I do not know the circumstances that brought them to where they are today. As such I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

I've often looked at things I've been doing in my own life or how I've been treating others and asked myself, does what I'm doing build me up, does it make me feel better or is the opposite true? It always leans a little more in one direction or another. We've always been taught the former, but nobodies perfect and people often forget this in how they treat other people. Some church members may be mean, very outspoken, make you feel down right uncomfortable or try and guilt you into doing something; this doesn't reflect well on the church and is definitely Not something taught within our faith. I'm sorry for those who have gone through such experiences. If you look at any group of people though, you will always find people like this. We are taught very much not to judge others, but many forget these things over time, simply do not notice they are doing so or feel this principle only applies to 'certain things' when it doesn't.

Relationships (LGBT)

In how it pertains to my life, I've come to a better understanding and moved to a better place if I don't think of a same sex marriage as wrong, but unnatural (there probably is a better word, but I can't think of it). A fact of life is that two cis-men or two cis-women cannot have a baby together. While it sounds harsh, it is a fact of life most of us have to come to terms with (with or without religion). Although I am MTF I am attracted to females (cis or trans). I have reached a point in my life where transition has become necessary. I do want to start HRT and even though that will make me sterile it's part of how I decided to move on with my life. In the Bible the very first thing God says to man and woman is: "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth" (Genesis 1:28 King James Version). Multiply I take to mean as have children and for me I know that the possibly of never having kids is scary. When I start HRT it'll also groups me into the same category as the rest of the LGBT group, it's not a possibility. The LDS faith is built strongly around the family and because of these reasons this is how I've come to accept where I'm at.

Church Leaders Opinions Of Ourselves

It is most definitely God's opinion I am concerned about with first and foremost. I would like to relate this as best I can to the transitioning process (although I haven't gone through it, I think many of the same principles apply)(I'm sorry if I get any of the steps wrong). When you start transitioning you talk to the doctors, psychologists, GT and so forth. After talking to them they help you with the process, guide you in the right direction and overall help you determine where you're at with everything. Talking with a church leader is very much the same process. They help you determine where you're at and help guide you on your journey there. In the end though, it is your decision where to go and when to stop. I'm sure psychologists and GT have been a big help to many of us, but you don't Have to use them (DIY). It becomes much more difficult though and there is a lot less support trying to do things on your own (I'm assuming there is).

Several Wives

An example that makes sense to me is such: Imagine the world pretty much ended and almost everyone died off, except for 30 cis-women and 3 cis-men. Multiple wives would make sense to build up the population again quickly. To those who are already thinking that's wrong, then try the reverse. Say each man was exclusively with only one woman, How would you feel to be one of the other 27 woman? I am sure depression, suicide and other things would soon become very real problems. If I was one of those 27, I would probably opt for suicide eventually knowing I would literally never find someone to be with. At the time it was started in the church, the membership was such that there were significantly more women then men. There are many examples of similar situations in the Bible and in history.

I hope what I have been able to write addresses many of the questions that people asked.

[Guest Xeriis]

Since I'm saving money for GRS, what would be the chance I could be a part of the ward, or not be excommunicated?

Jenny

I personally think it was wrong for him to suggest reparative therapy, but I do not know your story or situation.

Two people may do the exact same thing, but their motivations or reasons behind doing so could be drastically different. It's most often those reasons that lead to the answer. Given the right circumstances and how you approach the subject, you probably could be part of the ward. Some people will be understanding and some will not. When I do go back, I might end up talking to a few people if my Bishop is very anti-LGBT.

The pamphlet brought up by Tessa159 in "Family Acceptance Program" in this forum was a really nice find and something I am thinking of using in the future.

[Guest Jenn348]

Xeriis, thanks for coming into the thread and sharing your insights. Much appreciated.

[JenniferB]

I just know when I talked with the local bishop about transitioning, he kindly told me to please stop, and offered reparative therapy. That alone took away any desire to become active again, even though I believe in a lot of their doctrine. I don't believe I could go back without being judged. And it would also cause fear and anxiety among many of the members of the ward. I would not feel welcome. Attending a ward for the first time, when you don't know anyone, is hard enough.

Here is my question:

Since I'm saving money for GRS, what would be the chance I could be a part of the ward, or not be excommunicated?

Jenny

How did you approach the bishop on the issue? Specifically, how did you explain gender identity to him and how did you present the need to transition?

In my experience, leaders need a crash course in the medical side of this issue followed by evidence of medical necessity for any such procedure/hormones/etc. The handbook says a disciplinary council 'may' be necessary for transitioners, but evidence of medical necessity will show that the transition isn't just being done for reasons of perversion or some sexual thrill, and is therefore not sinful.

But, then again, no guarantees. There are bigoted local leaders out there who you might need to bypass by talking directly to a stake president or higher leader. YMMV

I didn't approach the bishop, he approached me, or rather called me. He didn't know I was an inactive member.

It started some months before the call when a member at work told the missionaries. They would come by the house about once every month or two. I finally told the last set of missionaries, a retired couple, that I did not desire for them to drop by anymore, since I was I was transsexual and over five months into transition.

It was a couple weeks later that he called. He said he wished I would stop, and that he would find therapy for me. I told him I already had therapy, when he emphasized not the kind I had. It was later that he actually found out I was a member, but inactive for over 20 years.

I can't see myself in the church now anyway. I don't know anyone, too old to have a family, and being trans won't find support. I never felt comfortable as a convert and never had much support when I was a member.

I don't have anything against the church, it's just not for me. Maybe the general authorities will accept transsexuals one day. Then I would take another look. I will tell you I'm not holding my breath.

Jenny

[Guest Xeriis]

I have thought about possibly going back, but only after I can pass all the time easily. I have also wondered what it would be like to have children that are biologically yours and a cis-female partner/spouse. I've wondered how they would react and really what I'd do in the situation. I will probably go back and at least talk to some of the church leadership, but only after being able to pass easily.

[JenniferB]

I have thought about possibly going back, but only after I can pass all the time easily. I have also wondered what it would be like to have children that are biologically yours and a cis-female partner/spouse. I've wondered how they would react and really what I'd do in the situation. I will probably go back and at least talk to some of the church leadership, but only after being able to pass easily.

I think about going back once in awhile. But i didn't start HRT until I was 51. I am 6'1", and with broad shoulders, and built like a football linebacker. So I will never pass fully. Plus I was never married, so don't have a family. Having a family and raising children is at the core of LDS beliefs.

The one thing I really enjoy is when I feel the warmth of the holy spirit. Feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost really brings peace and comfort, plus the desire to do right. That's what I miss the most.

Jenny

[Guest Xeriis]

I'm lucky in that regard. I'm 28, haven't been married, no kids, and only 5'6".

I also enjoy the feeling. I have only recently come to terms with being trans and even more recently my beliefs and how they relate to that.

[Guest Jenn348]

I just know when I talked with the local bishop about transitioning, he kindly told me to please stop, and offered reparative therapy. That alone took away any desire to become active again, even though I believe in a lot of their doctrine. I don't believe I could go back without being judged. And it would also cause fear and anxiety among many of the members of the ward. I would not feel welcome. Attending a ward for the first time, when you don't know anyone, is hard enough.

Here is my question:

Since I'm saving money for GRS, what would be the chance I could be a part of the ward, or not be excommunicated?

Jenny

How did you approach the bishop on the issue? Specifically, how did you explain gender identity to him and how did you present the need to transition?

In my experience, leaders need a crash course in the medical side of this issue followed by evidence of medical necessity for any such procedure/hormones/etc. The handbook says a disciplinary council 'may' be necessary for transitioners, but evidence of medical necessity will show that the transition isn't just being done for reasons of perversion or some sexual thrill, and is therefore not sinful.

But, then again, no guarantees. There are bigoted local leaders out there who you might need to bypass by talking directly to a stake president or higher leader. YMMV

I didn't approach the bishop, he approached me, or rather called me. He didn't know I was an inactive member.

It started some months before the call when a member at work told the missionaries. They would come by the house about once every month or two. I finally told the last set of missionaries, a retired couple, that I did not desire for them to drop by anymore, since I was I was transsexual and over five months into transition.

It was a couple weeks later that he called. He said he wished I would stop, and that he would find therapy for me. I told him I already had therapy, when he emphasized not the kind I had. It was later that he actually found out I was a member, but inactive for over 20 years.

I can't see myself in the church now anyway. I don't know anyone, too old to have a family, and being trans won't find support. I never felt comfortable as a convert and never had much support when I was a member.

I don't have anything against the church, it's just not for me. Maybe the general authorities will accept transsexuals one day. Then I would take another look. I will tell you I'm not holding my breath.

Jenny

The acceptance is already beginning to happen. Recently an MD who takes an interest in such issues wrote the Quorum of the Twelve and explained the issue from a medical perspective. He actually received a reply from Dallin H. Oaks, who said he learned a lot and would share the information to others who need it to make informed decisions.

I'd attach the letters, but I can't find the attach option. I'll see what I can do later.

[Guest Jenn348]

I have thought about possibly going back, but only after I can pass all the time easily. I have also wondered what it would be like to have children that are biologically yours and a cis-female partner/spouse. I've wondered how they would react and really what I'd do in the situation. I will probably go back and at least talk to some of the church leadership, but only after being able to pass easily.

I think about going back once in awhile. But i didn't start HRT until I was 51. I am 6'1", and with broad shoulders, and built like a football linebacker. So I will never pass fully. Plus I was never married, so don't have a family. Having a family and raising children is at the core of LDS beliefs.

The one thing I really enjoy is when I feel the warmth of the holy spirit. Feeling the influence of the Holy Ghost really brings peace and comfort, plus the desire to do right. That's what I miss the most.

Jenny

Funny thing, there's a woman in my ward who has a very manly face, tall, broad shoulders and a deep, masculine voice. The only reason I know she is not trans is her grown daughters, who have many of her features (so I know they're not adopted).

You'll pass better than you think. You are probably already more womanly than her

[JenniferB]

I want to thank both Jenny and Xeriis for showing up on the forums. I wasn't going to post anymore here, but that would be unfair. Plus you have helped give me some hope.

I also want to apologize for the mean spirited way I acted. I acted in the same way that I've seen others act. You were the recipients of problems I've had with the church. You have been patient and thoughtful. I appreciate that.

I don't want to return without putting in the time to present properly. I need to work on my weight, exercising with the goal of becoming more feminine looking, and my voice. I am reading a book called "The Practicing Mind". It teaches that the best way to learn is to practice, and that the enjoyment comes from practicing, and growing. Live in the moment and don't be concerned about not doing things right. Eventually you will reach your goal. If you focus just on the goal, you will become disappointed. It's the process that is important.

With Love,

Jenny

[Guest Xeriis]

I am now inactive, but I used to go often. I've avoided it more recently because when I do go I usually skip out on priesthood (as I've never really felt very comfortable there and could never relate). I've often felt the pressure or sometimes feel like I am 'guilty' from other singles in the ward when I do this. I have one friend that for whatever reason, won't let me push him out of my life and just continues to occasionally text, call, or stop by to see how I'm doing. He never makes me feel like I am forced or pushed in any one direction, so I've simply stopped trying to cut him out. When he has been at church I simply sit next to him. I haven't been for quite a while (10 months), but am making steps to do so. I'm meeting my singles ward bishop on Saturday and just explaining everything to him. I informed him I wanted to meet, that it would likely be a very long meeting, to please not be pressed for time afterward in case it went long and that I wanted to meet somewhere other than the church (so I wouldn't have to wear a suit). He has always been very understanding in the past, he isn't someone who is quick to rush to decisions and I feel comfortable talking to him (something I can't bring myself to say about any other male in my life). I hope it goes well and will let you know of the progress. I am hoping I'll be able to attend the first 2/3 of church and then leave or something like this. I'm hoping the ward will start to change to be more accepting, but also do not plan on outing myself yet.

In Canada, if you go through the proper channels, health care covers vocal coaching so I am looking forward to that. I very much dislike that I have to 'pretend' and change my voice. I wish there was a good surgical option and this is one of my biggest hangups with transitioning and just being fully out there. Until I reach that point, there is still much more I can do while still not outing myself; I will work on those. I will get in the waiting lines for the doctors for therapy, hrt, voice and other things and do what I can. I have no problem being out later, but I will work on myself and my support system before going there.

I am always happy to read others posts here in this forum Jenny. Though they are just words on a page, they make me feel like I am not alone in this journey.

~Scheris

[Guest Jenn348]

"I very much dislike that I have to 'pretend' and change my voice."

Not so, really. If you were raised female, you'd have learned to talk like a girl. The only thing really non-learned about your voice is the pitch, the rest is software, and can be rewritten In other words, the only thing you'd be 'faking' is the pitch.

[Guest Xeriis]

"I very much dislike that I have to 'pretend' and change my voice."

Not so, really. If you were raised female, you'd have learned to talk like a girl. The only thing really non-learned about your voice is the pitch, the rest is software, and can be rewritten In other words, the only thing you'd be 'faking' is the pitch.

I'm sorry I was unclear, I have nothing against learning to talk like a girl (i had several sisters close to my age, 2 mothers and mostly female friends growing up, so I am better off than most) I very much dislike having to learn to control my pitch and how I actually will vocally sound. This is what I was referring to in my post.