The Gay Marriage Debate

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I don't see any real point in starting a war here. All of you have it ingrained into your minds that you wish to change marriage. My conservative roots disagree and could fight for hours, but I don't think it could change your opinions. I also enjoy reading your posts because they are interesting and allow me to think about things. I still have not seen anything strong enough to shake the conservativeness out of me. I guess you could call it a transsexual stumbling block if you wish. I would challenge you to try and shake the conservativeness, but this isn't really the right thread for that.

Anyway, you know my opinion. I wouldn't call it a dissenting opinion since a lot of other people seem to agree with me.

Aww...I'm not trying to start a war. I just like debating.

Around here, I'd say your opinion is a bit counter to the majority. Either way, we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

As for shaking the conservativeness out of you, no I probably can't. Right now I'm pretty busy trying to shake the conservativeness out of my mom.

[Guest Leah1026]

I'm not trying to drag religion into this. I think there have been very few if any cultures in history to fully accept gays until recently. I also don't want to offend anyone, I just think this is a change in something great that has been preserved for thousands of years. Marriage is one of the few commonplace things to survive from that time. And this change would ruin a large part of what it was originally intended to be.

Religion is a personal lifestyle choice. Being born gay/lesbian is not.

Many of the same arguments being used against gays/lesbians today are the same arguments that have been used throughout our history against progress. Most notably the bible was used to:

Support slavery

Oppose the right to vote for blacks

Oppose the right to vote for women

Oppose inter-racial marriages

Oppose the Equal Rights Amendment

[Guest Sheila]

i think it's a matter of time. change comes slowly. people in general seem to resist change, especially if it makes them feel uncomfortable. the people that resist us find us not normal because we don't fit in to their way of thinking. it just seems to me that maybe they are the ones not normal because they are conditioned to think that way, at least that's how i see it, like they have a one tract mind. now i'm not trying to insult anybody, and i'm sorry if you feel that way but i'm just giving my opinion. i respect their views, i wish they would give me the same respect. i don't tell them how to live their lives, theirs by choice. i wish they would just let me live the life i was born into. and stranded out there, you educate well. you and leah1026 both seem to be very well imformed and experienced in these matters and i hold you both in the highest regard. i feel like i'm in good hands. thank you.

sheila

[Guest KyleMicheal]

Gay marriage = YES!

Attraction and love is normal in anyone. This can be changed a bit. Attraction can be towards the opposite sex or the same sex. You are BORN with it. You do not choose whether you are straight, gay, have 6 fingers, are blonde, are brunette, are male or female, or anything else for that matter.

Let's say that gayness was "normal" and straightness was "unnatural". Now, think about it. You opposed to gay marriage, think. Is it fair? No, it's not. You can't be with your love, ever.

Definitions change often, as well. Man and woman, you may think. Yeah. I respect that, but...

Medical definitions change often.

Slang definitions change often.

Normal definitions change often.

Law changes often.

Alcohol used to be illegal. Just because people thought it was a "bad thing", it was banned. What happened? Gangsters, scandal, and more crime. You could compare gay marriage to alcohol. Some people think it is evil, so it's banned. We would be better off with gay marriage. It won't hurt anyone. Plus, the lack of procreation can lead to a good thing: adoption of children who so desperately need care.

Children under care of homosexual parents can be more open about their little quirks. (Homosexuality, transsexuality, not fitting in, that strange deformity they have on their face)

On the subject of changing definition...who said marriage is strictly between a man and a woman? Even in the Catholic church, men had many wives. ONE man and ONE woman. I think not. The definition even changed.

To all of you brunettes wishing you were blonde, do you change it? Yes, you do. Maybe more men/women are driven to you or whatever. In essence, this is lying. You're brown haired. It may cause you pain later that he's into you because of the lie you have given him. You can never be close.

Now let's say the hair color analogy can be applied to homosexuality. Brunette = gay; blonde = straight

See, even if a homosexual went ahead and got a heterosexual marriage, it would never be true. It's lying.

Or maybe let's say your true love is trans. You can't get married because hir birth gender is the same as yours. Painful.

So, do you think gays should be denied rights of marriage? You decide.

[blackkatsen]

I guess I'll never change. Oh yes, men have had multiple wives in history. They had multiple marriages. I don't think there's been a marriage ceremony where 1 man got married to 2 wives.

I have question for you all to answer. Some gays have gone through reparative therapy. I'm not asking about the effectiveness of the therapy or anything. But some gays have done it and have come out straight. So how does this work with gays being "born" gay if they can become straight through this therapy? Just wondering what your responses are.

[MaryEllen]

Should anyone chose to enter this program voluntarily, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem with forcing someone into this program against their will. It is just plain WRONG WRONG WRONG! There have been too many suicides by people being forced into this program to justify it's existance. If this type of program works for you. That's fine. Go for it, but don't expect the rest of us to follow suit.

MaryEllen

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I guess I'll never change. Oh yes, men have had multiple wives in history. They had multiple marriages. I don't think there's been a marriage ceremony where 1 man got married to 2 wives.

I have question for you all to answer. Some gays have gone through reparative therapy. I'm not asking about the effectiveness of the therapy or anything. But some gays have done it and have come out straight. So how does this work with gays being "born" gay if they can become straight through this therapy? Just wondering what your responses are.

There's a difference between coming out acting straight and actually being straight. I haven't seen any evidence that the therapy brings about any real changes. From what I've read, the long term effects aren't so good either.

On the other hand, I have seen evidence from studies using brain scans. There are structural differences in gay peoples' brains. In many cases, gay men's brains are more similar to the brains of straight women. There are also structural differences in gay women's brains when compared to straight women's brains. I guess that kinda suggests they might have been born that way.

Dude, what's your deal?

[blackkatsen]

Well it's just my opinion. It comes from the way I'm raised. Church. Parents. Friends. All that stuff.

It's kinda off topic but it's strange how liberals call conservatives bigots and all that stuff and conservatives say the same things back to the liberals.

Anyway I didn't want to start a war or offend anyone here right now.

It also appears that I've been reported. Don't know who did that or what being reported entails.

[Guest Zenda]

I guess I'll never change. Oh yes, men have had multiple wives in history. They had multiple marriages. I don't think there's been a marriage ceremony where 1 man got married to 2 wives.

I have question for you all to answer. Some gays have gone through reparative therapy. I'm not asking about the effectiveness of the therapy or anything. But some gays have done it and have come out straight. So how does this work with gays being "born" gay if they can become straight through this therapy? Just wondering what your responses are.

Kia Ora BK,

Now I’m sure you are aware that some people call themselves ‘bi sexual’ or in my case bi-romantic-asexual [if I were to have a relationship with either a male or female, unlike the bi-‘sexual’, mine would be a ‘non’ sexual one]. Anyway what I would like to mentioned [and for you to ponder awhile before replying] regarding your comment on ‘homosexuals’ being cured through RT…

I have a friend whose been in a ‘same sex’ relationship for over twenty years, however she ‘still sees herself as ‘bi-sexual’ but she ‘chose’ to commit to a long term relationship with a female…

What if those who say that they were ‘cured’ by RT were just bi-sexuals who finally chose to commit to a female-[if males] relationship!!!…In many cases a person’s sexual orientation is not so clear cut as hetero-homo…Some going through transition their orientation may become fluid[questioning] and after they have fully transitioned they may have gone from a ‘heterosexual male to a heterosexual female or visa versa…Or their physical sexual identity changes but their orientation stayed the same ie, in a male body they were attracted to women=heterosexual and now as a female they are still attracted to females=homosexual.

Ones sexual orientation BK can be quite complex, a person could be a somewhat confused bi-sexual, whilst others might be asexual [having no interest in sex whatsoever] If you go by my friend's experience and by the way, she is a qualified psychotherapist who just so happens to have dealt with transsexual people in the UK…She is now in her early seventies, I’m sure she know herself by now…And BK she's got around sixty ‘life experience’ years more than you!!!

Same sex marriage… my vote would be yes…It's a no brainer...What right do I have to deny another person’s happiness especially when I don’t know them from a bar of soap[an old English saying] How would you feel if someone denied you the freedom to choose?…

Now if there was a vote to ban organised religion my vote would also be yes…However in time I believe evolution will eventually make it extinct ie, as a species we will grow out of it…Umm in the meantime I think I’ll become a follower of Bertrand Russell’s ‘celestial teapot’ …it makes more sense to me… BK you might like to look up 'celestial teapot' or Russell's teapot... maybe it will open your mind just a little.

BTW, I believe in miracles, but miracles for me are not of the supernatural kind, they are more when a person whose mind and eyes are clouded by ignorance suddenly see the light - seeing all people as equals and becomes more humane in their dealings with others...That's what I call a true miracle...And they are happening everyday...

Metta Jendar

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Well it's just my opinion. It comes from the way I'm raised. Church. Parents. Friends. All that stuff.

It's kinda off topic but it's strange how liberals call conservatives bigots and all that stuff and conservatives say the same things back to the liberals.

Anyway I didn't want to start a war or offend anyone here right now.

It also appears that I've been reported. Don't know who did that or what being reported entails.

Perhaps make sure it really is YOUR opinion and not your parents' opinion. It's important to look at the facts yourself and make your own decisions. Don't get in the habit of just accepting what other people say. It's good to be critical. Be critical of what your parents say...be critical of what we are saying here. Form opinions based on reason.

Yes, I've heard liberals call conservatives bigots. I've suggested to my mother and step-father (both conservatives) that they both might be bigots. However, I've never heard anyone call liberals bigots. We get called "bleeding hearts" and "hippies". If anything, liberals get criticized for being too accepting. Whatever...

I don't know who reported you...wasn't me. I don't want you to go away. I like to argue.

[Guest Drew]

Well it's just my opinion. It comes from the way I'm raised. Church. Parents. Friends. All that stuff.

i agree with StrandedOutThere...make sure it's really your opinion....it very well may be and that's fine...everyone is entitled to their own opinion....however, i was raised in a very strict, religious family with a zero-tolerance policy towards anybody remotely queer and up until i was 13 or 14 i thought i was destined to burn in hell....i don't anymore

[Guest sphere]

Well I think all marriage should be illegal, so there. I don't understand the point of it personally, but to each his own.

Haha though seriously, yes, gay marriage should be allowed, or maybe I'm just a bit biased since I'm gay myself. Civil unions are stupid, people say it's the same thing but if it has a different name it's still separate. I don't care if it's been between a man and woman for however long, I have never lived back then so I don't really care what marriage was like back then. Nothing's wrong with a little change. The world needs change or else it gets boring and no one goes anywhere. It doesn't have to be a big deal really.

I kind of dislike how people get to vote on this issue. I think we should vote on if heterosexual marriage should be legal, too, in that case. It's no one else's business who gets married to who, it's a civil right, it should be allowed.

The therapy thing to "change" people from gay to straight I find kind of disgusting really. People are who they are and everyone, including themselves, need to accept that. That "therapy" is just another pressure for people to pretend they're straight and suffer accordingly.

Yes you are born gay. No you don't jump out of the womb saying "I LIKE MEN" (if you're male). But you don't jump out of there being the height you will be when you're 25, you don't have facial hair (if you're male), you don't have breasts (if you're female), you're not nearsighted, et cetera but you will eventually and there's not much that's going to stop any of that because it's in your DNA. So is your sexual orientation. There are animals who are gay, I highly doubt they have the brain capacity to even understand what that means, let alone decide.

As for the issue with children... that's sort of irrelevant. Marrying someone doesn't necessarily mean "now LET'S GO MAKE BABIES" ...well for some it might, which is another thing, people have different interpretations of what marriage should be, and I think we should respect each other's opinions and views and sexual orientations. If you don't like gay marriage, well you don't have to attend a gay marriage or get married to someone of the same sex. It doesn't effect anyone who chooses not to marry to the same sex, so I don't see why it should matter to them.

Oh I was talking about kids. Right, right. Some say that a female role (or male role for lesbian marriages) is needed to raise a kid. Does this mean single parents can't have kids either? And someone mentioned that the kids turned out no different than ones raised by straight parents. Yeah. That too.

My grandfather was gay and he married a woman and had six children and was in a very unhappy marriage. He lived a lie and cheated on his wife all the time but he was still gay. It messed him up, and in turn it messed up my dad and his siblings. Everyone suffers.

[Guest Leah1026]

I kind of dislike how people get to vote on this issue. I think we should vote on if heterosexual marriage should be legal, too, in that case. It's no one else's business who gets married to who, it's a civil right, it should be allowed.

Get a load of this video at Pam's House Blend. Jesse Ventura tells it like it is:

http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do...20?diaryId=5532

Sometimes in our country the court DO need to force change. For example Brown vs. The Board of Education. If people were allowed to vote we would absolutely still have segregation (and slavery like Jesse said). Courts have often been used in the country as a way of forcing progress, for getting the country to do the right thing. Another example: would women have gotten the right to vote in 1920 (USA) if it was strictly up to a vote by men?

Marriage Equality is the right thing to do. The Declaration of Indeprendence says:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

Notice it doesn't say some people are more equal than others.

And for the record: I'm a Christian (Catholic) and straight, but I believe in the ideals as put forth in the Declaration of Independence.

[Guest Sheila]

i was forced to go to church every sunday and some weekdays too until i was sixteen. the churches brainwashing had no effect on me. i reject the church who won't except me for who i am. i follow my heart, not what someone tells me what is right or wrong. i consider myself a good person and i think i know the difference between right and wrong. if god made me this way, what gives people the right to tell me i'm wrong?

[Guest]

I find it amazing that a member of an anti-gay cure group would tell a homosexual that if he couldn't be converted that he was better off committing suicide. They all get the throwing stones part of the bible but not Jesus's message of "He who is without sin should cast the first stone". I don't get terrorists who kill thousands of people in God's name. Both groups are so eerily similar it is scary. The only difference is the choice of ammunition.

Laura

[Guest Leah1026]

Interesting video I saw today on another site:

I hope that cut and pasted correctly. Someone taking Faux (Fox) News to task on it's "fair and balanced" reporting on marriage equality. Their "expert" is clueless.

[Guest Leah1026]

Another video! Okay a warning for anyone who knows a lot about politics. This video may give you whiplash!

The video is Bob Barr, the Libertarian candidate for president, apologizing for having authored the federal DOMA (Defense of Marriage Act) back in 1996. He now says he agree with the California Supreme Court ruling for marriage equality.

[Guest Keiichi-kun]

I personally don't really like gay marriage. The whole term seems to be a oxymoron to me because marriage is between a man and a woman. It always has. It's just being challenged now. Sorry, but I would have to vote no on it.

You are most certainly entitled to your opinion and I respect that but I'm gonna give my two cents on the subject. With marriage comes a lot of benefits. Not only tax benefits but some that could severely affect a couple. The first is when your partner dies and doesn't have a will. Who does all their stuff go to? If you two aren't married then it's their children, if they have no children their parents, ect. You won't get a thing unless they have a will saying so. Also what about children? A teacher of mine was saying he has a friend in a lesbian relationship and the two of them are raising a child together. His friend's partner is an alcoholic and she wants to break it off but she is scared to do so because their child is biologically her partner's. She's afraid that if she were to break it off she wouldn't get to keep this child she's been raising just because they cannot get married. To me that's why same-sex couples just be allowed to get married.

Hell, I'm getting to point that civil unions with the same rights as marriages will do for me. No one should be denied the right to marry another consenting adult.

[Guest]

When the author of the bill changes his mind others will too. Thanks for the clips, Leah. What Doma does is allow states to write discrimination into their state constitutions by a simple majority vote. Some are still in favor of DOMA, others favor a partial repeal and still others want to repeal it completely. The following article lists the positions of other presidential candidates. http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Pa...L20080527a.html . Obama favors a complete repeal, Clinton a partial repeal and McCain disagrees with both candidates. This article explains what a partial repeal means http://www.republicoft.com/2007/12/28/the-doma-test/ . The partial repeal sounds like a plan to keep constituents happy in an election year as they all remember the anti-gay vote that pushed Bush to the white house in 2004.

To me partial rights are still discrimination if all don't have the same rights. It's like throwing one group a bone. Discrimination shouldn't be written into the constitution. The bill is either right or it's wrong. Any other answer is political doublespeak. I do understand the value of compromise but in this case i think a firm stand needs to be taken one way or the other. Human Rights should not be negotiable.

Laura

[blackkatsen]

Hey! I like Fox News. Bill O'Reilly is cool too.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

Hey! I like Fox News. Bill O'Reilly is cool too.

Did you see that video on YouTube where he flipped out? The techno remix was hilarious.

[Guest Keiichi-kun]

Did you see that video on YouTube where he flipped out? The techno remix was hilarious.

I can't stand that guy I love watching him on youtube just get myself all riled up.