DOMA Ruling

[Guest Syamantaka]

I just wanted to share; http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/12pdf/12-307_g2bh.pdf

This came a few minutes ago from the Supreme Court.

Now I am wondering about the rest of our community?

[VickySGV]

It will probably be a few hours or days, but either of these two sites will be likely to have comments on the effect of this decision for the TG community.

http://www.transgenderlegal.org/

http://transgenderlawcenter.org/cms/

[Carolyn Marie]

I think the decisions are fine, but I don't see how they effect the trans community one way or another. Even with Prop 8 in effect, my marriage was unaffected, since I was legally married at the time, and no state can force an annulment on a couple. I did worry about my Federal taxes, but the IRS paid no heed, either through oversight or a live and let live attitude. Certainly I don't have to worry about that now, which is nice.

I'm glad for all the gay and lesbian couples. Maybe folks can focus on ENDA now. Pipe dream, I know.

Carolyn Marie

[Cyndee]

YES, YES and YES !!

Happy dance, married in WA state, this is fantastic news for us.

C -

[JenniferB]

From what I understand, same-sex married couples only won a partial victory. By not ruling on prop 8,it effectively allows the appellate court ruling to stand. That kills prop 8 and same-sex marriage is allowed in CA, but on a national level, states can decide if they want to discriminate against same-sex marriage if they want. If a same-sex couple does get married in a state where same-sex marriage is allowed, the federal government will recognize the marriage.

This ruling does pertain to the trans community. There are states who discriminate against trans couples all the time. If a cis-male marries a trans woman, many states would declare that a same-sex relationship, even if the trans woman has gone far in her transition.

Jenny

[Carolyn Marie]

.This ruling does pertain to the trans community. There are states who discriminate against trans couples all the time. If a cis-male marries a trans woman, many states would declare that a same-sex relationship, even if the trans woman has gone far in her transition.

Jenny

That's very true, Jenn. But the DOMA ruling does not force states that don't recognize same sex marriage to do so, and it doesn't force states that don't, to recognize as valid the marriage of same sex couple who were legally married but moved. That will, without a doubt, be on the Court's docket in the coming years.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[megandb]

From what I understand, same-sex married couples only won a partial victory. By not ruling on prop 8,it effectively allows the appellate court ruling to stand. That kills prop 8 and same-sex marriage is allowed in CA, but on a national level, states can decide if they want to discriminate against same-sex marriage if they want. If a same-sex couple does get married in a state where same-sex marriage is allowed, the federal government will recognize the marriage.

This ruling does pertain to the trans community. There are states who discriminate against trans couples all the time. If a cis-male marries a trans woman, many states would declare that a same-sex relationship, even if the trans woman has gone far in her transition.

Jenny

The DOMA ruling does in fact affect trans people such as myself I am engaged to a transitioning transwoman so legaly we are both still male, the DOMA ruling means when we get married in sept our marriage will be federaly reconized, and I couldnt be happier

Engaged to a same sex partner

Megan Jesscia

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Honestly can't say I'm jumping for joy over this, I think the best part of this is maybe friends and family will stop randomly bringing this topic up with me. I don't particularly see this as a trans specific issue, yes it will effect some transpeople but not all.. but it isn't even remotely close to the significance to the overall trans community as say for example the recent bathroom ruling for the little girl here in Colorado.

I'm bi my self, so while this could possibly affect me.. I have a hard time standing in solidarity with the LGB community when some of the worst hatred towards trans issues I have seen recently has come from the LGB community.

Sarah

[Guest KimberlyF]

I love watching people in Gov flip flop to push their agenda.

On one side there are the Liberal justices standing up....for states rights over a law written by Congress according to their rules and signed by a President.

And on the other, the conservatives are claiming this power not written into the constitution should belong to congress. Yay strong Fed!

OK...we can return back to our regular sides for the next one.

[Guest LizMarie]

This ruling assists trans couples who marry as same sex or who are already married and become a same sex household - their tax and other federal benefit status should remain the same. In that sense it is a legal finalization so couples like Carolyn and her partner are not just "slipping through" the system overlooked and possibly subject to later changes and back taxes.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

This ruling assists trans couples who marry as same sex or who are already married and become a same sex household - their tax and other federal benefit status should remain the same. In that sense it is a legal finalization so couples like Carolyn and her partner are not just "slipping through" the system overlooked and possibly subject to later changes and back taxes.

I didn't say that it doesn't affect some, but this is still not a distinctly trans issue. This ruling helps those trans people in specific situations, and it helps transpeople who are in same sex relationships but that still makes it a LGB issue more than a trans specific issue. I'm just saying the importance of this in terms of trans issues is really quite small compared to the ruling for the transchild bathroom case.

Sarah

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I suppose I should add that I'm not opposed to this ruling it's great and all.. I just don't really feel very impassioned about it like I do about issues more directly relating to trans rights. I'm also a tad annoyed that wayyy to many family and friends think that because I'm trans that I should be out of my mind excited about this news. It's a good ruling people should be able to marry who they want, I am all for government not trying to command people who and how to love. I also have issues as I stated with standing in solidarity with the LGB community when there are many within their ranks who are complete hypocrites, and mock us for trying to fight for transrights.

As soon as they have accomplished their goals of equal gay rights across the bored, how much of the LGB political apparatus is going to hang around and keep fighting for transrights? I would reckon not a whole lot of it. So my feelings about this news is, good for them but I don't care.

I'm happy for those who's lives are made better by this though.

[Guest Bellexia]

Sarah I feel the same way, while I'm happy about it, I'm not over enthused, especially with Obama and his trips to russia and africa to spread the joy of equality when we can't even get genda passed and barely got this passed. It's great for us like me who are total lesbos and what not assuming we move to a state that allows it but Texas will probably not pass gay marriage let alone any trans rights over all any time soon and I can just cross off places like Bama and Mississipi off the list of this century. Still, while many in the GL community are jumping for joy, I will cheer them on, I am happy for them, even if many are just tossing us aside for their wins.

[JenniferB]

I think it's a big deal. I may not be married, or in a relationship, but soon I won't have to worry about what gender my partner is. The rulings today didn’t go far enough, but at least it's a move in the right direction.

Jenny

[Drea]

To me this is a GLB thing with little relevance to T.

Trans folk, of all people, could almost always and have quite frequently skirted such things.

And existing marriages to date haven't been suddenly dissolved by one partner getting a gender marker changed. But alas I have seen so many go out of their way to create angst for themselves over things that weren't anything to be concerned over.

I do think it was the right ruling from a constitutional perspective recognizing that marriage is not one of the specific powers the federal government was given the power to regulate thus it being something that the states regulate, and upholding equal protection meaning that the government couldn't selectively recognize something that is the states power to regulate.

I wonder however, if those who are cheering this decision have thought beyond the immediate consequences. If marriage is something that the states regulate, and the federal government doesn't have providence, doesn't that mean that under the arguments used in this case, the federal government can't make states accept gay marriage? That it can't be legislated on the federal level to make gay marriage legal nationally? Every silver lining has its cloud I suppose.

I dunno, seems like interesting times.

I will note one other thing. I seen trans object to the assumption, because they are trans, that they are gay, yet when trans jump up and down over what clearly is something on the GLB political agenda, it clearly suggests to the non-trans that trans view themselves as gay.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Just because older transpeople tend to lean towards same sex relationships, does not make this a universally trans issue. It's important to you yes, but not to everyone who identifies as trans. I think it's great and all, but I don't think this is a grand victory for the trans community as a whole. I don't think anyone is discounting your feelings, what I am simply saying is that just because its an issue that is important to some trans people doesn't automatically make it a trans issue.

One point I always hear trans people trying to get across to people is that being trans is not a matter of sexuality. Well you can't really have it both ways, this is an issue that is important to you and others it directly affects but not one that is directly linked to being trans.

Sarah

[Guest Jenni_S]

And existing marriages to date haven't been suddenly dissolved by one partner getting a gender marker changed. But alas I have seen so many go out of their way to create angst for themselves over things that weren't anything to be concerned over.

Just take a look at IRS Tax law and there was plenty of reason for angst. That has evaporated now.

Actually, it wasn't a problem. I know two couples, one in Minnesota and one in Wisconsin, that have remained married. Both have continued to file jointly, and the couple in Wisconsin went to the trouble of asking the IRS about it, who told them that if they had a legal marriage certificate, and any legal documents that show any names that changed are the same persons on the certificate, they may file as married filing jointly. All it took was a letter to their regional IRS office.

[JenniferB]

Just because older transpeople tend to lean towards same sex relationships, does not make this a universally trans issue. It's important to you yes, but not to everyone who identifies as trans. I think it's great and all, but I don't think this is a grand victory for the trans community as a whole. I don't think anyone is discounting your feelings, what I am simply saying is that just because its an issue that is important to some trans people doesn't automatically make it a trans issue.

One point I always hear trans people trying to get across to people is that being trans is not a matter of sexuality. Well you can't really have it both ways, this is an issue that is important to you and others it directly affects but not one that is directly linked to being trans.

Sarah

I disagree Sarah. It's important in the fact that it brings equality closer to all, even if you don't feel directly affected by this ruling. It shows that society is changing for the better, and becoming more accepting, even though many trans issues are lagging behind. I'm not in any relationship, but am very happy for those who are. I don't hold any resentment for the gay community receiving rights, even if some do not like trans people. Locally I advocate for them also, when the opportunity arises. I have friends who are gay.

I do find this ruling important to the trans community, even if it affects many of us indirectly.

Jenny

[Drea]

My comments are inserted in red:

To me this is a GLB thing with little relevance to T.

Ignoring the demographic that many older transwomen especially are gay.

So what? So they happen to be gay, didn't I say it was GLB relevant?

Trans folk, of all people, could almost always and have quite frequently skirted such things.

Ignoring the fact that living a normal life rather than skirting things is highly desirable.

I think I do live a normal life. But hey, it is pretty common for folks in the trans community who haven't been thru a fraction of what I have are compelled to tell me how it really is.

And existing marriages to date haven't been suddenly dissolved by one partner getting a gender marker changed. But alas I have seen so many go out of their way to create angst for themselves over things that weren't anything to be concerned over.

Just take a look at IRS Tax law and there was plenty of reason for angst. That has evaporated now.

I thought the IRS was pretty clear as far as pre-existing marriages. Heck I have filed plenty of such returns myself.

I do think it was the right ruling from a constitutional perspective recognizing that marriage is not one of the specific powers the federal government was given the power to regulate thus it being something that the states regulate, and upholding equal protection meaning that the government couldn't selectively recognize something that is the states power to regulate.

This is unchanged from the way it’s always been. What did we expect? The Supreme Court isn’t writing new laws, just ruling on the constitutionality of what already exists.

We are agreed here

I wonder however, if those who are cheering this decision have thought beyond the immediate consequences. If marriage is something that the states regulate, and the federal government doesn't have providence, doesn't that mean that under the arguments used in this case, the federal government make states accept gay marriage? That it can't be legislated on the federal level to make gay marriage legal nationally? Every silver lining has its cloud I suppose.

It still could be legislated at the federal level, but congressional reality is that nothing of the sort would pass through the current gridlock, and would be doubtful as long as the conservatives can filibuster. I'm glad that 14 states have done the right thing - it's a start.

It can't be legislated without running afoul of the precedents this ruling sets...but then again few really care about constitutionality as long as they can get a ruling for what they want.

I dunno, seems like interesting times.

I will note one other things. I seen trans object to the assumption, because they are trans, that they are gay, yet when trans jump up and down over what clearly is something on the GLB political agenda, it clearly suggests to the non-trans that trans view themselves as gay.

And many transpeople are gay. Younger transpeople tend to be straight. However, the older, late-transitioners tend to be gay. Probably a bigger percentage of transpeople are gay than the non-trans population.

As I said, it was a GLB issue. Just cause trans folks may also be gay doesn't make it a trans issue.

Drea, I don't know if you're gay or not, but, please don't discount the feelings of those of us who are.

Thank you, Megan

As I said I think it is a good ruling constitutionally, but also highlight that the fight was narrow minded cause it does pose problems for the bigger objective. Nowhere have I passed judgment on the merit of DOMA nor have impinged upon people's right to be happy about it. I just don't see it as a trans issue. I find it easy to separate trans from other aspects of my life and certainly celebrate things I think apply to those aspects but I would never call such things a trans issue even though it may be important to many trans folk.

I've been around long enough to see those bits of angst over an imagined molehill get pushed up into a mountain. Both at the individual level and at a legislative/legal level and at the end of the day the mountain remains causing problems for the individual or trans people as a group.

There have been lots of positive changes I seen too, but those have come about primarily thru other means.

I know some see trans as a lifestyle choice and regardless of being gay see this a validation of lifestyle choices. I on the other hand considered my issues to be a medical issue so am not particularly concerned with promoting this as a lifestyle. And unlike most angsting over some petty issue which is great fodder for discussion...I am unimpressed. Tens of thousands have been thru those sorts of things that get routinely agnst-ed over including myself and know there isn't an issue. But there are always folks out there that want to create new mountains.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Just because older transpeople tend to lean towards same sex relationships, does not make this a universally trans issue. It's important to you yes, but not to everyone who identifies as trans. I think it's great and all, but I don't think this is a grand victory for the trans community as a whole. I don't think anyone is discounting your feelings, what I am simply saying is that just because its an issue that is important to some trans people doesn't automatically make it a trans issue.

One point I always hear trans people trying to get across to people is that being trans is not a matter of sexuality. Well you can't really have it both ways, this is an issue that is important to you and others it directly affects but not one that is directly linked to being trans.

Sarah

I disagree Sarah. It's important in the fact that it brings equality closer to all, even if you don't feel directly affected by this ruling. It shows that society is changing for the better, and becoming more accepting, even though many trans issues are lagging behind. I'm not in any relationship, but am very happy for those who are. I don't hold any resentment for the gay community receiving rights, even if some do not like trans people. Locally I advocate for them also, when the opportunity arises. I have friends who are gay.

I do find this ruling important to the trans community, even if it affects many of us indirectly.

Jenny

I have friends that are gay, lesbian and Bi as well and my best friend is Bi. Don't mistake my disinclination to be over the top excited for this issue as bigotry, its great for those who it affected. I do not advocate for the LGB community, in part because yes I find a large portion of their activists to be short sighted and hypocritical, but also because they have more than enough people and resources advocating their issues. I predominantly advocate trans specific issues and I feel that more transgender activists time would be better served focusing on issues that directly impact the trans community as a whole.

The simple fact is that once the LGB activist machine has their victory a vast majority of their people and resources will evaporate off to enjoy their victories with little thought about what will happen to the T. it is simply my humble opinion that as a community we primarily focus on the issues that we need to deal with in order to achieve our own goals.

Like I stated previously, I think it is wonderful for those whos lives this decision may make easier. I just have a hard time being out of mind excited for this ruling, it's not a victory for the trans community and we have a long long way to go to reach our own goals.

Sarah

[Drea]

I have friends that are gay, lesbian and Bi as well and my best friend is Bi. Don't mistake my disinclination to be over the top excited for this issue as bigotry, its great for those who it affected. I do not advocate for the LGB community, in part because yes I find a large portion of their activists to be short sighted and hypocritical, but also because they have more than enough people and resources advocating their issues. I predominantly advocate trans specific issues and I feel that more transgender activists time would be better served focusing on issues that directly impact the trans community as a whole.

The simple fact is that once the LGB activist machine has their victory a vast majority of their people and resources will evaporate off to enjoy their victories with little thought about what will happen to the T. it is simply my humble opinion that as a community we primarily focus on the issues that we need to deal with in order to achieve our own goals.

Very well put Sarah!!!!

And while I might disagree with what the trans activists might focus on as far as trans issues and how they go about it, I am agreed that trans activists pushing GLB agenda aren't supporting the community as a whole.

There has been discussion raised from time to time about GLB exploiting T and throwing T under the bus when it is convenient for them. GLB have won most of their agenda and the marriage thing is the biggest one remaining. So your concern as to what is going to happen once GLB get their agenda is quite legitimate.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

As I see it....

What is most important and relevant to this ruling is that the federal government recognizes that adult commitment between two people regardless of gender is uniformally accepted as marriage with all of the rights and legal obligations that come with it.

This fundamental concept was an inconceivable idea 20 years ago.

Each step in the right direction must be appreciated by all. What I have seen in my life is an ever progression to acceptance and understanding by society at large towards the LGBT community. Indeed, homosexuals appear to benefit more immediately from such rulings, but the transgender community does benefit as well.

I see this all as a victory and sociological progress.

Brenda

[JenniferB]

As I see it....

What is most important and relevant to this ruling is that the federal government recognizes that adult commitment between two people regardless of gender is uniformally accepted as marriage with all of the rights and legal obligations that come with it.

This fundamental concept was an inconceivable idea 20 years ago.

Each step in the right direction must be appreciated by all. What I have seen in my life is an ever progression to acceptance and understanding by society at large towards the LGBT community. Indeed, homosexuals appear to benefit more immediately from such rulings, but the transgender community does benefit as well.

I see this all as a victory and sociological progress.

Brenda

You put it very well Brenda. That is how I see it.

Jenny

[Guest Megan_Lynn]

While I do agree its not the smartest idea for trans people to be advocating for GLB issues as they so love to toss us under the buss if it will help them out. But this time its not just a GLB issues its a GLBT issue. I have read stories of a trans MTF getting insane grief after their husband passed by family members pushing to have the marriage not be recognized at all and the trans woman loosing everything because of it. This ruling fixes this. There have also been issues with a transwomen from this very forum having and issue just being able to keep her drivers license say F on it when she moved to Florida. As the state told her if she did not get the M on the license her real marriage to a woman before transition would not be valid at all. Anyone who is trans and married or wanting to some day be married is effected by this ruling every bit as much as anyone else in the GLB community. Plain and simple as trans people we will be no more then hormonally altered men and woman in many minds. This puts us in same exact place as all GLB people when it comes to marriage. If a trans woman tries to marry a cis woman they will say hey wait thats a same sex marriage. And do the exact same if the trans woman was to try to marry a cis man as they will say hey wait you are still XY and your a dude. And yes this has happened so so many times. This ruling stops all that BS from happening ever again in all states that recognize same sex marriage. So yes this one time this is a total community win for all GLBT . While on the surface it may seem to only benefit the GLB its a win for all of us.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Eventually the LG will run out of things to advocate for and that will leave a clear path for the T.