DOMA Ruling

[Drea]

I have read stories of a trans MTF getting insane grief after their husband passed by family members pushing to have the marriage not be recognized at all and the trans woman loosing everything because of it. This ruling fixes this. There have also been issues with a transwomen from this very forum having and issue just being able to keep her drivers license say F on it when she moved to Florida. As the state told her if she did not get the M on the license her real marriage to a woman before transition would not be valid at all.

I give you credit for highlighting a very REAL issue Megan verses other things raised that has some relevancy. .

Striking down of DOMA does not address any of these things. True that with states with gay marriage it does eliminate the same sex argument, but there are several avenues of challenge.

A friend who is very involved in the legal aspects with trans people highlights the need for any trans person getting married establish other documents to insure protection against such challenges.

[Guest Bellexia]

Eventually the LG will run out of things to advocate for and that will leave a clear path for the T.

Hahah, yeah I doubt that'll play out the way we hope, they will gain normality and start treating us as the fear mongers treated us. It happened in the civil rights movement, just look how often you see a african american preacher ripping on us. We already have a decent percent of GL's them treating us like a joke. I am whole heartedly agreeing with Sarah and Drea here. I am lesbian as well, when the GL win all their rights, we can pretty much kiss any support away. After all, they got theirs. As for marriage, it'll be harder with another trans girl but as I am mostly attracted to CIS gendered even before this ruling I'd not of had an issue. I think people should stop griefing Sarah over a valid view. She isn't being a bigot, she isn't saying that this isn't a valid ruling, she is just saying it's not the best it could have been. Given what megan had said, I think we should be more worried about that. I recall the wife of the Texas firefighter. It was a very very tragic situation made even worse by family evil.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Yeah. HRC is now pushing for marriage in 50 states in 5 years.

Then they can come back and work on Trans in the military. Although adoption ranks much higher as an issue in LGBT than any trans issue including health so who knows?

[Guest Bellexia]

Yeah good luck with Texas HRC. I've just about given up on any help from the GL. I give up on politics, this country is hopeless. Think I am wrong, just take a look at what Perry just did. That is what we have to look forward too anytime we get anywhere. The only chance is a straight up revolution and we don't have the numbers for that. So I am going to live my life, in as much stealth as possible and let the rest fend for themselves. Good luck. You are going to need it.

[Carolyn Marie]

Concerning the "big picture," maybe you're all correct. Maybe the GL movement doesn't support us, at least not often. But there are an awful lot of good people within the GL community who do "get it," and who have been staunch supporters of us and our push for equal rights. I've met a lot of them. They may not understand everything about us (how many of us understand everything about us?), but they want for us what we want.

If we are good ambassadors for our community, we can change hearts and minds, and educate folks, one at a time and a few at a time. That's how progress is made. I don't advocate for giving up on the gays and lesbians. They were, are, and ought to be our natural allies. You don't win by giving up, you win by persistence and persuasion.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

They may not understand everything about us (how many of us understand everything about us?), but they want for us what we want.

Well maybe not as strongly as us. In a survey where you had to go through the effort of clicking a box (4 of the lesbian's choices scored over 50% so you could have multiple choices) the trans health issue came in last by a substantial margin in each category. More would accept domestic partnership than strongly support trans health first.

They were, are, and ought to be our natural allies.

Why exactly would this be?

[Carolyn Marie]

.

They were, are, and ought to be our natural allies.

Why exactly would this be?

Because that's my opinion, dear.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

.

They were, are, and ought to be our natural allies.

Why exactly would this be?

Because that's my opinion, dear.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

I totally get that. I obviously have enough opinions. And I change mine from time to time. So I'm not sure if I'm right now or if I was right then. I hope to finish life being correct at least 51% of the time. That would have to be better than average, wouldn't it?

I asked for clarification because your post was laid out in the format of "You may believe this, but I believe this...". So I was just wondering if you could explain your opinion. Of course nobody is required to explain their actions or beliefs, but its sometimes helpful for me when trying to see another's POV. As I've said, I have changed positions on numerous issues over the years with careful consideration.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Concerning the "big picture," maybe you're all correct. Maybe the GL movement doesn't support us, at least not often. But there are an awful lot of good people within the GL community who do "get it," and who have been staunch supporters of us and our push for equal rights. I've met a lot of them. They may not understand everything about us (how many of us understand everything about us?), but they want for us what we want.

If we are good ambassadors for our community, we can change hearts and minds, and educate folks, one at a time and a few at a time. That's how progress is made. I don't advocate for giving up on the gays and lesbians. They were, are, and ought to be our natural allies. You don't win by giving up, you win by persistence and persuasion.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

It's not a matter of giving up on them for me, it's a matter of never had faith in them to begin with. I simply fear where the trans community will be when the LGB community moves on from their activistism because they have accomplished their primary goals. It just seems that we (as a community) will be cheering on their victory as though it's our victory, but completely unprepared for them to move on from us when they have what they want. It's inevitably going to happen, because a gay man doesn't even have the slightest remote clue what a MtF transsexual woman goes through to get to where she is.

Yes, some trans people are Lesbian, Gay, and Bi... I am in a lesbian relationship right now my self but that doesn't change the fact that they aren't us, and our issues will never matter to them the way they matter to us. My issues lie in the fact that there is an attitude that I have encountered from the LGB community that we need their permission to fight for OUR rights, that we should be thankful for what we get. We don't need their permission to do anything, period. It's great that this ruling does help some Transpeople but that still doesn't make this a key trans issue it just doesn't, being trans is not about sexuality meaning this is primarily a LGB issue. Trans activists would simply be better served spending their time and resources on issues that are primarily trans issues. LGB issues are well advocated for as it is, trans issues do not have nearly the level of advocacy that LGB issues do.

The ruling is great and all, but it certainly isn't the grand victory for the trans community that some make it out to be. I personally believe that the transgender bathroom laws holding up in court here in Colorado in the Coy ruling is a far bigger deal for the trans community then the DOMA ruling.

Sarah

[Guest KimberlyF]

Exactly Sarah. One day later, and being trans still prevents you from a group of FEDERAL jobs. What should be the focus?

[Drea]

I don't think LGB are natural allies at all.

Even within the trans community there is a huge rift that kind of gets glossed over..

GLB are sexualities, T is identity. I can't count how many times have trans folks made that distinction. That trans isn't about sex.

For GLB being out has many benefits. They don't have to hide their choice in partner, they can more readily find compatible partners. For many trans, "transition" is a temporary state as a result of dealing with a medical condition and have no wish at all to be identified as a "Trans woman" or "trans man". Just a man or woman be they gay or not.

And this is where the big rift in the community occurs. For under the umbrella there are lots of folks for which trans is their identity. Some may neither want to conform to male or female. Some do want to be recognized as a trans woman or a trans man. Folks that make choice to be open for which medical condition may not even apply.

And what bothers me is that the activists, perhaps from such close association with LGB inevitably use the medical argument to gain legitimacy to pushing for actions that would benefit the portion of the community that see trans as a lifestyle choice even if it is at the expense of those for whom it is a medical issue to get past and get on with life. I find that a bit exploitive.

Our natural allies, if there is one would be the BIID folks (Body Identity Integrity Disorder). Why? Because it is a medical issue for them. They claim very similar roots in development to cause their dysfunction. They experience dysphonia with their bodies. They seek medical intervention to correct their bodies. It seems to me that there is far more in common and they frequently use the same type of language used in the trans community like "I just want to be myself". "that part of my body was never part of me".

[JJ]

I agree that association with the LGB community is a two edged sword but the one justification is that they are also people who are variant as far as mainstream society is concerned and fighting for the rights of those outside the mainstream. The other is that when we transition legally we can find ourselves being redefined as gay or lesbian in a sense sometimes. Or we were in that situation prior to transition in some instances. Either way the issues that that community faces with discrimination and denial of equality then become our situation as well.

Not to mention that there are just too few of us and we have too little political and economic power to successfully challenge the status quo as a separate group.

Is it an ideal marriage? Definitely not. But a necessary one? At this point I suspect it is because we will be riding their coattails. We have little to offer them in return and it does not surprise me that there are resentments and rifts. But you find that in any alliance.

DOMA is vitally important to us because it also signals progress in the attitudes of our society toward extending equal rights to all people and ending discrimination on moral grounds. We DO face the same denials by the same people for the same reason even if what we are is fundamentally different.

Johnny

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I can't say that I agree Johnny, we won't be able to ride the coat tails of the LGB community forever. It doesn't change the fact that once they achieve their own goals a large majority of them will ride off into the sunset. We are as a minority going to have to stand on our own two feet eventually and deal with our own issues, as I said before LGB issues have more than enough resources advocating for them, they don't need us focusing on their issues more than our own. I still maintain that DOMA is not a primarily trans issue, it is at most a ancillary issue that effects some trans people, so let them focus on their primary issues while we focus our energy and resources that actually effect gender related issues.

Sure great some trans folk identify as both trans and LGB activists, but that doesn't mean that by default we all do or even need too.

The DOMA ruling also was not a national referendum on gay marriage, it was a ruling by 9 judged appointed by individuals.. Even then they failed to rule on prop 8 meaning states still can ban gay marriage, so this isn't really a huge sign that anything has shifted beyond perhaps the balance of power in the supreme court.

Sarah

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Every inch won is the result of miles of work.

From 1950 to 2050 will be the most dynamic years for us.

In the end, Transgendered will not be seen as deviant from the norm.

Transgendered will finally be understood as natural, and consequently, normal.

[Guest Maria_B]

Agreeing with Drea and Sarah.

A trans issue is an issue based around the needs of transpeople.

This is an issue based around the needs of GLB people, some of which are transpeople. It has effect on transpeople, but it is not a trans issue.

If we were to push for anti-weight discrimination, would that be a trans issue, because there are overweight and underweight people who are trans? Nope, but its sure as hell a very very good thing for those transpeople. That should be celebrated, but we shouldn't be saying it is a trans issue.

[Charlize]

This may not be a trans issue but it certainly affects some of us. If Gov. Christy removes his veto of a marriage bill i can legally change my gender. Until then i might end up with a legal battle to maintain tax and insurance as a legally married person. Been married 42 years as a man. Becoming a woman and changing my legal name does seriously jeopardize that. I wasn't sure if that was the case and had an opportunity to ask the head of the ACLU and the head of LAMDA legal shortly after they returned from being at the supreme court. They thought i had a legitimate problem and took my card. Oddly they had never thought about our issue of change within a legal marriage. Somehow we in the T community have to raise our hands sometimes and mention our issues. We are a small group and are easily forgotten.

Hugs,

Charlie

[Cyndee]

This is not trivial for us that are married as Charlie says above, I know those that are activist minded think of T only, that's fine.

This action this week helps my children and my wife by removing possible "discrimination" at the federal level regarding my social security and taxes, it's huge for our family in the long term. Married, trans and in a same sex marriage, legal in WA state here, there are probably more of us out there then most people realize. I know of several on this board alone,

Again it's a big deal for us !!

C Rae -

[Guest KimberlyF]

I don't remember anyone claiming the Lilly Ledbetter act as an important piece of Trans legislation even though it indirectly could impact about half the group.

[JJ]

My point is that it does affect us because we ARE variant and linked in people's minds with the LGB community. When society gets a message that they have rights it WILL change perceptions of us as somehow lesser citizens because we are linked in their minds. Legial decisions can and most often do send a powerful social message. The civil rights movement taught us that. And others who were also discriminated against benefited as well. Because the message was and is that discrimination on the basis of personal prejudices is not acceptable.

I am not saying we shouldn't be active on our own. Though some activism can actually be counterproductive if it encourages the old mentally unstable stereotypes by being over the top. What we need is to be seen as normal people with an unusual condition that does not make us weird or crazy. Gays and lesbians used to pretty generally be seen that way too and getting dragged along on their coattails as people think LGBT=people far more like than different from themselves with the same basic rights they have can only help us.

People don't think overweight or other things and automatically add trans to the group as they do with LGBT. The misconceptions about us and sex are already firmly established unfortunately. being allied with the LGB community definitely won't help that. But we just have to then also be active in promoting education about gender variance and what it means.

And as I said for the TS community who transitions we would by default by and large be gay or lesbian either before or after transition.(By societal definition. I am not nor ever was a lesbian but if I had been able to express my attraction as a straight man mentally to women society would have defined me as such. We are talking about societal definitions here and not the realities we know instead) It does affect us. Dramatically and on several levels. The most powerful being the message that discrimination because some people have moral issues with how other people are born and live their lives is no longer acceptable.

Johnny

[Cyndee]

It does affect us. Dramatically and on several levels. The most powerful being the message that discrimination because some people have moral issues with how other people are born and live their lives is no longer acceptable.

Johnny

Well put Johnny, could not agree more

Hugs

C Rae -

[Guest KimberlyF]

And as I said for the TS community who transitions we would by default by and large be gay or lesbian either before or after transition.(By societal definition. I am not nor ever was a lesbian but if I had been able to express my attraction as a straight man mentally to women society would have defined me as such. We are talking about societal definitions here and not the realities we know instead)

Johnny

Perfect example of one of the problems with this relationship. For the almost 30 years I have been in and around transsexuals there has been a concern with people seeing an early transitioning pre-op woman as a gay man.

I don't care about societal definitions. If we start that then maybe we should focus on how society views someone born w/a penis?

How is it not sending a mixed message when we continue to rally that this is NOT about sex and we continue to show up at parades w/people who define themselves by who they sleep with?

[Guest Maria_B]

In alternative medicine, there's a mantra to ''treat the problem, not the symptoms'', and I think largely same sex marriage is a run of effect of non-recognition of gender identity for straight couples (whereas it is the actual discrimination for homosexual couples). So this is a win for homosexual couples, but for people like the wife of the firefighter in texas, the problem was, and was always going to be, the non-recognition of her gender.

Thats the trans issue, the other is the GLB issue, which, as I have said before, but other people seem to berate me for not saying, affects some transpeople, and when we win it is fantastic.

I am not saying this is trivial.

I am not saying it doesn't affect you.

I am not saying it isn't a good thing or has run on benefits for the future.

[Drea]

This may not be a trans issue but it certainly affects some of us. If Gov. Christy removes his veto of a marriage bill i can legally change my gender. Until then i might end up with a legal battle to maintain tax and insurance as a legally married person. Been married 42 years as a man. Becoming a woman and changing my legal name does seriously jeopardize that.

Here is a case where there are lots of precedents that exist in NJ that show it is not an issue.

And if simply changing a gender marker or birth certificate were to invalidate a marriage, why won't the state recognize such as not married unless they get divorced?

This is the perfect example of what I was saying before, creating an obstacle.

This is not trivial for us that are married as Charlie says above, I know those that are activist minded think of T only, that's fine.

This action this week helps my children and my wife by removing possible "discrimination" at the federal level regarding my social security and taxes, it's huge for our family in the long term. Married, trans and in a same sex marriage, legal in WA state here, there are probably more of us out there then most people realize. I know of several on this board alone,

And yet another example of the same thing.

If these things were an issue thousands if not tens of thousands of affected trans people would be screaming cause of first hand problems....but no. Instead, those thousands have had no problems long before any of these changes.

I am all about finding solutions and dealing with realities and these assertions have as little connection with the realities as some of the fantasy claims about hormones.

[JenniferB]

I think the same-sex ruling is on the same level as the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The fact that this thread has gained so much attention, and stirs emotions attests to that. For us progressives, it really is a good day and shows the country moving forward. I can't help but to think that's a good thing. It shows our country is becoming a more tolerant and accepting society overall.

Obviously, we don't have the resources the LGB community have. But brushing them off isn't going to help either. And there are LGB people who advocate for us. I know a LGB member of city council who spoke at the last TDOR. I think this person understands. Frankly, we are so few in number that we should seek and have gratitude for any help we can get, and not be so cynical because of others who were never going to help us.

As far as helping, if it weren't for the local LGB community accepting trans people, we would have a much harder time. They allowed us to share their facilities, and help pay for a trans employee on staff. They allow us to use their facility for at least six meetings a month. We have a special place for LGBT youth. Transgender youth are welcome there. At least here in Tucson, the LGB people have been very good to us. And Wingspan is a safe haven for all LGBT people. I actually owe them thanks, and don't feel resentment at all. I'm happy for them.

Jenny

[Cyndee]

Gee, I am free to be just like any other citizen. Isn't that the big deal we are all seeking?

Love, Megan

You bet it is Meg, this means my children won't have to deal with any discrimination on my estate taxes, or my wife on receiving my social security benefits if I were to pass, I've put in over 36 years into Social Security, better darn tooten, it's a big deal, and that's the tip of iceberg for me. So please I respect all opinions here, I am so grateful for all of the activists that are struggling to make our lives better. That woman that sued and won in the supreme court is my hero, bless her.

Cynthia -