DOMA Ruling

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I never said that this wasn't a big deal to those who are directly effected, and it's great but I do think it is being blown out of proportion this is not on the level of the 1964 civil rights act. That was an act of legislation, and the legislative branch will influence their decisions based on public opinion and as far as I know they are still too afraid to pass any real legislation on this issue. The court simply interprets law vs the constitution, and their opinions are usually not influenced by public opinion because they are not elected officials. Also remember that they chose to not rule on Prop 8 leaving states with the authority to make their own determination. There is no federal mandate that gay marriages are a constitutionally mandated civil right, and this is not the grand victory that some are making it out to be this is more of a stepping stone if anything.

The DOMA ruling may be important for many of you and that is fine, but that still doesn't make it a transgender issue. You may be lesbian gay or bi, and also trans making the DOMA ruling insanely important to you, but that doesn't automatically make this bleed over into a primary trans issue. If you look at things from a LGBT view then sure this may be an important issue to you, but I simply do not see gender and sexuality as even remotely the same thing. I am defined by my gender first, and my sexuality wayyy after that and I am far more interested in trans specific legislation and rulings. So I am just not going to be as excited about this ruling as many people seem to expect of me, LGB issues take a huge backseat to me over trans issues. I am flatly going to say I was far more elated about the Coy Mathis civil rights ruling than I am about this, because that is a purely trans issue.

Many of you are as passionate about LGB issues as you are about trans issues, but not all of us are and many of the younger transpeople I know and who I have talked too feel the same. We're happy for the LGB community but please do not thrust this on us and expect us to be as happy about it as you are. I am happy and it was the right ruling but I just don't see this as a trans issue.

Sarah

[JenniferB]

I wanted to add something else. I doubt feel that the LGB should be obligated to help us after they receive their rights. I don't want someone's help out of obligation, but if it comes from the heart because it is the right thing to do. We may not receive support from the total LGB community, but we will receive some. We will also receive support from other sources too.

Help will come from those who want to do what is right and are caring. We shouldn't turn people like this away because of our own pride.

Jenny

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I wanted to add something else. I doubt feel that the LGB should be obligated to help us after they receive their rights. I don't want someone's help out of obligation, but if it comes from the heart because it is the right thing to do. We may not receive support from the total LGB community, but we will receive some. We will also receive support from other sources too.

Help will come from those who want to do what is right and are caring. We shouldn't turn people like this away because of our own pride.

Jenny

This isn't a matter of pride to me when I say we need to learn to stand on our own, it's just a matter of being prepared to do so when we can no longer ride on anyone's coat tails. I am also not saying that the transcommunity should turn away any help that is offered, all I am saying is that there is a distinction between LGB issues and Trans issues. Can some bleed over and effect the other? Sure, but that still does not mean that our issues are the same. DOMA is a primarily LGB issue that has some effect on some transpeople, but it is still a LGB issue first and foremost.

Hugs,

Sarah

[Drea]

For those who are not believe and propagating the idea that, hey I can just ignore estate issues, and spousal right can't be challenged, I wouldn't be so reliant upon that.

This isn't going to change that materially.

But if people want to believe that, ignore real issues while hyping up non issues to find something to claim this solves...that is their choice.

I just say protect yourself legally in case one item is challenged there is still documentation.

[Carolyn Marie]

There is a lot I don't know about the legal and tax issues related to being married and trans. So some of what is being said about potential problems could be entirely true, and I may just be naive to think otherwise. My birth certificate says male and I won't be changing it. My marriage certificate has my old name, and I won't be changing that unless I have to. So me and my spouse are in some in-between world, just like many of you. I won't know if there is a problem until one crops up, and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I've been filing tax returns under my new name for two years. So far, no problems whatsoever. But with this DOMA ruling, I suppose there won't be a problem in the future. My spouse will get SS benefits someday, and I don't anticipate any problems with that. What could get interesting is when, in the next year, we see an attorney about setting up a will or living trust. With my house and other things still under my old name, and my birth cert under my old name, it could get complicated. I might find an LGBT attorney who has experience in this arena, but I don't think that will be easy.

Where I see a problem for some is when a married trans person has gotten their gender marker changed on their birth certificate, and moves to a state that doesn't recognize same sex marriage. I'm not sure what might happen, but it could be tricky. Then again, I don't think any state in the Union can force an annulment on a couple who were legally married to begin with.

Bottom line is, the DOMA decision was great. Now we move on to the next legal battle; getting the Feds to force all states to recognize same sex marriages done in those states that allow it.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I suppose my question Carolyn, would be is why the next big legal battle for the transgender community federally mandated same sex marriage laws? I would think the next big battle for the transgender community should be getting anti-discrimination laws for transgender individuals in place in more than a handful of states.

That right there is why I don't jump out of my skin with excitement with things like DOMA, it just feels to me like far too many in the transgender community are more than content that our issues take a back seat to predominantly LGB issues. Sure I want to be able to marry whoever with out worry, but you know what I want more than the freaking right to marry? I'd like to have the right to use the bathroom in any state with out fear of some lunatic trying to card me and throwing my butt in jail as a sexual predator. LGB issues do not override the importance of trans issues in my opinion, just because our community is natural allies to the LGB community does not mean we should adopt their issues above our own.

Being able to marry is a luxury issue compared to the basic rights that are still not protected in many states for trans people.

Sarah

[Guest KimberlyF]

This discussion seems to almost be floating the strawman that people who don't think our best interests are with the LGB also support the DOMA.

Is anyone here stating that marriage should be between a man and a woman?

I'm not and any kind of safety that one feels they get from that, good for you. I wouldn't rob you of that. I think it's much ado about nothing. My opinion

It has zero to do with if we should align with LGB or if it is in our best interests.

Saying DOMA is a trans law is like saying the Lilly Ledbetter act that I mentioned above that would cover about half of the Trans population at any time who are 'Federally Female' is a trans law.

And Sarah, thank you for all of your posts of reason. Which is kind of an indirect way of saying people that don't agree with me are unreasonable. I cracked the code.

[Guest Jenni_S]

There is a lot I don't know about the legal and tax issues related to being married and trans. So some of what is being said about potential problems could be entirely true, and I may just be naive to think otherwise. My birth certificate says male and I won't be changing it. My marriage certificate has my old name, and I won't be changing that unless I have to. So me and my spouse are in some in-between world, just like many of you. I won't know if there is a problem until one crops up, and I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

I've been filing tax returns under my new name for two years. So far, no problems whatsoever. But with this DOMA ruling, I suppose there won't be a problem in the future. My spouse will get SS benefits someday, and I don't anticipate any problems with that. What could get interesting is when, in the next year, we see an attorney about setting up a will or living trust. With my house and other things still under my old name, and my birth cert under my old name, it could get complicated. I might find an LGBT attorney who has experience in this arena, but I don't think that will be easy.

Where I see a problem for some is when a married trans person has gotten their gender marker changed on their birth certificate, and moves to a state that doesn't recognize same sex marriage. I'm not sure what might happen, but it could be tricky. Then again, I don't think any state in the Union can force an annulment on a couple who were legally married to begin with.

Bottom line is, the DOMA decision was great. Now we move on to the next legal battle; getting the Feds to force all states to recognize same sex marriages done in those states that allow it.

Carolyn Marie

That's it exactly, Carolyn. Aside from knowing Jenny and Victoria, and Jessica and Dawn and talking with them, I've done lots of checking with regards to this, what with that whole future in front of me. If the marriage is legal at the time the two people are married, then there is no problem down the road. You are, and always will be, married, as far as the Feds are concerned. State laws may (and of course do) vary, so couples may run into some things there.

The real fun is when you marry someone AFTER you change your documentation. Just as one example, in Kansas I believe, the children of a remarried man, who married a post-op MTF with documents changed, were able to disqualify her from the will after he died. The marriage certificate was obtained fraudulently, since Kansas didn't recognize the documentation change, and the marriage wasn't legal to begin with, by Kansas state law. Getting one's ducks in a row well before getting married post-transition, especially in states where things may be "hazy," is a must.

[Carolyn Marie]

I suppose my question Carolyn, would be is why the next big legal battle for the transgender community federally mandated same sex marriage laws? I would think the next big battle for the transgender community should be getting anti-discrimination laws for transgender individuals in place in more than a handful of states..

Sarah

Saran, I guess I wasn't clear in my comment. When I mentioned the next big legal battle, I was referring to the same sex marriage issue only. I heartily agree that the big legal battles for the TG community include health care, workplace protections, and access to restrooms, among others.

Which is kind of an indirect way of saying people that don't agree with me are unreasonable.

I think your conclusions are reasonable, Kimberly. After all, Burton Hillis said, "There's a might big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons that sound good."

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I suppose my question Carolyn, would be is why the next big legal battle for the transgender community federally mandated same sex marriage laws? I would think the next big battle for the transgender community should be getting anti-discrimination laws for transgender individuals in place in more than a handful of states..

Sarah

Saran, I guess I wasn't clear in my comment. When I mentioned the next big legal battle, I was referring to the same sex marriage issue only. I heartily agree that the big legal battles for the TG community include health care, workplace protections, and access to restrooms, among others.

Carolyn Marie

Fair enough Carolyn.

Sarah

[Guest MichellePetite]

Hi All,

Due to the topic area I steel myself and dispense with comic sans mid blue size 14. (just pretend it is please!)

Please forgive the intrusion,

As a non-combatant:

Firstly…… A truism …….. In Unity There is Strength.

So ‘steady the Buffs!’.

Always maintain a united front in the face of the Enemy!

It strikes me that the whole DOMA thing is tainted goods. The sole reason for it’s being is purely out of homophobia and to construct a ‘wall’ around what was then perceived as ‘us’ and to keep ‘them’ out and separate and so on. It appears to be bad legislation from the beginning, even the title is ……. Wrong. It does not defend it denies…..

I think that the term Marriage requires a redefinition. What is marriage? …. Essentially that is?

To me it is the union of two people who agree to life partnership in order to face the world henceforth as a complete unit. As such it requires proper provision under the aegis of Contract Law perhaps. What do you think?

The Sexuality of the couple is not relevant.

The Gender of the couple is not relevant.

Any Transexuality of the couple is not relevant.

And so on……..

What is relevant is the agreement to face things together.

That I suggest is what you should shoot for in your United States. I would imagine that many already are?

Please don’t shoot me ‘cos I’m not one of ‘you’ because I am actually one of us all.

We are having our own kind of ‘fun’ on this subject over here too you know, but even our ‘public schoolboy’ Prime minister is addressing the issue ….. quite forthrightly ….

For a Conservative P.M. - that is!

I enjoyed your debate by the way.

LnK

Michelle

[Guest KimberlyF]

Michelle,

I doubt people could be offended by your opinion. But as I stated above, there isn't a call that I see on this topic for a reinstatement of the DOMA. It's more of an indifference and a feeling that there are plenty of things out there that can be pushed for that are directly related to trans issues. But shortly after HRC made the comment of gay marriage in 50 states in 5 years, Pelosi ran with it in the US house. No mention of trans in the military though.

[Guest MichellePetite]

Hi Kimberly,

I take your point, and thank you for your kind words.

My point is that if one defines marriage as "....... " one can start anew. Without gender or sexuality or 'belief structure mix' or whatever being the issue. A marriage is ........ as defined. I leave it to you all to define your own 'marriage'.

I do point out that the current 'definition' seems to be 'wanting' judging by the failure rate in your society at present.

It is an observation not a judgement for I do know enough not to cast stones when living in a glass house!

I just deleted a bit about service in the military K if you would like that please PM me.

LnK

Michelle

[Guest LizMarie]

Ok, let me be the dissenting voice here. And let me explain why DOMA matters.

In Texas, the state attorney general has publicly stated that he intends to base all transgender rules off the outcome of the Nikki Araguz case. What is at stake in the Nikki Araguz case? Using the attorney general's own words, everything from gender identity changes on driver's licenses and birth certificates to whom we can or cannot marry. Everything about being who you believe you are is subject to revocation by an old white Republican who admits he dislikes transgender people and who bases his logic on the state's same sex marriage ban.

So why does DOMA matter in states like Texas? While DOMA doesn't directly apply to states like Texas, it does provide the further legal basis to challenge same sex marriage bans. We are seeing such lawsuits now begin in states that attempt to ban same-sex marriage as a denial of equal rights under the law. And if those bans are overturned because of DOMA, particularly here in Texas, the case against Nikki Araguz collapses and cannot be used as a basis for further discrimination against transgender individuals.

Sure, DOMA doesn't directly affect lots of us. But DOMA does directly affect some of us and not just in the realm of marriage alone but even in matters of legal documents, etc. No legal decision ever stands in isolation. Legal decisions form a vast network of precedence and priority. I am hopeful that the DOMA decision will influence Judge Randy Clapp ® of Wharton, Texas to rule in our favor and that Nikki is legally a woman.

And if he does not, this logic will be used in other states and if your driver's license currently lists you as your chosen gender, that may be taken away from you. You may be forcibly legally detransitioned if this sort of logic is allowed to occur and move forward.

DOMA is part of a network of legal precedents that hopefully can push this decision in the right direction instead of the wrong direction.