Opponents Of CA TG Student's Rights Bill Send Petition to Gov

[Carolyn Marie]

http://www.kcra.com/news/opponents-of-bill-for-transgender-students-deliver-petitions/-/11797728/21396282/-/d46s5xz/-/index.html

I am probably one of very few TG people to agree with the opponents, that this bill is written too broadly, and doesn't take the privacy rights of non-trans students into consideration. IMO, it needs to be re-written.

You may now throw the tomatoes. I'm ready.

Carolyn Marie

[VickySGV]

I think that a DMV like sign-off on Gender identification issues by a licensed medical professional should be the minimum litmus test, or at least an application that is signed by parents or caregivers of the student in addition to the student's own declaration. I have not yet fully read the bill myself, but if those who have read it note that those minimal safe guards are missing, then I agree that the bill needs some work on it. There also needs to be provision for the Inter Scholastic supervision groups to medically monitor the cross gender participants. In the past we have had parents who needed supervision in regard to their pushing their children athletically for the parent's vicarious gratification.

I am not nearly as concerned about boys trying to looky-loo the girls' locker rooms due to adolescent ginger as to the other items mentioned above. Our own GD children have enough legitimate problems with abuse and bullying, that the idea of a cis male teen with more hormone activity than good sense will get loose in the wrong PE locker rooms is low on my worry list. Peer pressure can work both ways there I agree, but I do not hold a cup of water out to the folks who believe there will be an inundation of T fueled cis males abusing any of this.

An inaccuracy in this article is that Brown does not have to VETO the bill by Tuesday, if he does not APPROVE it by Tuesday it is dead for this session. (Pocket veto is the term.)

[Carolyn Marie]

....the idea of a cis male teen with more hormone activity than good sense will get loose in the wrong PE locker rooms is low on my worry list.session. (Pocket veto is the term.)

That isn't my concern either, Vicky. What is being overlooked in this bill is that teenage girls somewhere will face someone in the next locker, or in their shower, who is naked and very clearly a biological male. It won't matter whether that person is absolutely a TS girl or not. What matters is their discomfort at being forced to deal with that situation. There is nothing in the bill requiring any privacy for that hypothetical non-trans girl (or boy, with an FtM kid in the shower). I don't believe our rights should trump anyone else's. This bill makes it inevitable.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest chibi_usa]

....the idea of a cis male teen with more hormone activity than good sense will get loose in the wrong PE locker rooms is low on my worry list.session. (Pocket veto is the term.)

That isn't my concern either, Vicky. What is being overlooked in this bill is that teenage girls somewhere will face someone in the next locker, or in their shower, who is naked and very clearly a biological male. It won't matter whether that person is absolutely a TS girl or not. What matters is their discomfort at being forced to deal with that situation. There is nothing in the bill requiring any privacy for that hypothetical non-trans girl (or boy, with an FtM kid in the shower). I don't believe our rights should trump anyone else's. This bill makes it inevitable.

Carolyn Marie

I don't think you have to be naked anymore. Lol! I was in Middle School and High School recently and no one took showers or had to get naked. Just strip till your panties and bras and then change clothes. If you want to take a shower bring a swimsuit. That sounds reasonable. And if it makes them feel safer the people the kids should be on HRT with a doctors permission before going to the bathroom or gym. I'm pretty sure VERYYYY little few men are going to be desperate enough to have HRT and become a girl just to see girls. XD

[Guest Jenn348]

Carolyn, I think you're taking a middle-of-the-road approach that few want to take in our extremist society. I tend to agree with you.

Adding some safeguards to ensure that only somebody who is really transgender accesses female spaces would help assuage any concerns from concerned parents. This could be done by setting a benchmark, like a certain time on hormones, a letter from a therapist and a requirement that the person live in the gender role full time could do that.

As for concerns over teenage girls finding that one of the girls has a penis...I'm not sure how to deal with that one. The extremists against trans rights would demand that anybody with a penis stay out of women's spaces, while the pro-trans people on the other end of the pendulum would demand that they be allowed in unconditionally. Both parties are being unreasonable.

Perhaps they could require schools to refit locker rooms to give everybody more privacy so the girls don't see other girls naked?

I'm sure a reasonable compromise can be reached, but I'm not holding my breath that unreasonable people can accomplish compromise.

[Drea]

I am with you on this one Carolyn. I been pretty vocal on many of the pushes because the broadness is so wide. Years ago the push was to have language that said "gender presentation" which I think was eventually recognized has having some problems cause some presentations may appear neutral externally but internally it is different than outward appearance. So the push these days is to have language related to ones "gender identification" which is a "because I said so thing" and subject to self declaration. In my view, unless one is in some medical treatment plan where a public gender role change is currently being sought, and one has medical documentation, that access can't be based on a "I say so" basis.

Now I don't know if you would be a restrictive as I would Carolyn, but I appreciate the recognition there needs to be some limits. It is far more sensible and worthy of discussion to talk about where those limits are than what I see argued mostly which is no limits and denial that such could be abused by nefarious peoples (which has happened) and denial that the feelings and rights of non-trans have any relevance.

As I see this as a medical condition, I am wholly for the reasonable accommodation for the medical needs. On the other hand, drag queen are likely to want allowances for their lifestyle, but in my view when someone has a choice I think the burden is more on them to accommodate others than others accommodate them.

In this particular article, one thing that stuck out to me was that it mentioned sports teams. No requirements of hormone intervention or anything like that? Even with hormones, the skeletal differences and general build on average give advantages in some sports such as softball or basketball. While I have no issue for anyone, trans or woman testing themselves and competing in mens sports, competing in womens sports which were set aside for women I have issue. Men and women on average aren't physical equals sorry to say. Now if MTF wishes to compete in women's gymnastic where balance and smaller size often are advantages, I say go for it, but too many sports bigger size, upper body size convey significant advantages.

[Carolyn Marie]

I am with you on this one Carolyn.

LOL! I'm going to frame this.

In this particular article, one thing that stuck out to me was that it mentioned sports teams. No requirements of hormone intervention or anything like that? .

That's right, Drea. The NCAA has some rules in that regard, and I think this bill should include the same, or some variation of those rules. Otherwise I agree that it would be unfair. I also recognize that it is much harder for a high school student to get on T-blockers or hormones than a college student, but even so, fair is fair. It is not a simple issue, because obviously, there are genetic girls who are much stronger and larger than "average." But it at least deserves some discussion.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

Is there anything in this current bill that would prevent a group of boys from being TG girls tomorrow and then detransitioning the next day after playing around?

[Guest Melissa~]

My personal perspective is to limit TS access to people that have actual treatment underway. In the US where numerous people don't have access to healthcare that's a bit of a problem though. I have no solution.