Manning, Gender Identity and Military Prison

[Guest Jenn348]

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/08/20/60451.htm

Apparently the military has stated that they don't go beyond counseling for people with gender identity issues in prison. However, civilian courts have held that not providing appropriate hormonal and/or surgical treatments is considered cruel and unusual punishment.

I looked into the UCMJ, and apparently they have similar restrictions on the use of cruel and unusual punishment with established military case law to back it. Unfortunately, nothing I could find addresses the issue of gender identity issues...yet.

Hopefully, if it's necessary, Manning will be able to get the treatment. However, it looks like there'll be quite a fight ahead in military courts.

[Carolyn Marie]

Even in civilian prisons, HRT is usually only available if one is diagnosed and under treatment when they are incarcerated. I've never heard of therapy being offered for inmates. I don't think Private Manning is going to be getting hormones anytime soon, and frankly, we don't even know if he needs or wants them.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

Franky, if someone hasn't been in treatment before prison I have little sympathy for advancing treatment.

[Guest Always Good]

Wait, why is he (she?) even in prison? I mean, the government doesn't exactly have the right to brush their screw-ups under the rug!

[Guest Jenn348]

Franky, if someone hasn't been in treatment before prison I have little sympathy for advancing treatment.

We wouldn't do this for other medical problems that crop up in prison. For example, if an inmate developed heart problems, would they let him or her die because it wasn't a pre-existing condition.

Either we believe in treating prisoners humanely or we don't. If not, that doesn't reflect well on us as a society.

[Carolyn Marie]

.

Either we believe in treating prisoners humanely or we don't. If not, that doesn't reflect well on us as a society.

IMO, there is a substantial difference between offering someone therapy, and ultimately HRT, for Gender Dysphoria, and treating a life threatening medical condition. If other prisoners are offered therapy for conditions they weren't being treated for pre-conviction, then perhaps in the interest of fairness, the authorities should offer gender counseling. But not otherwise.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Jenn348]

.

Either we believe in treating prisoners humanely or we don't. If not, that doesn't reflect well on us as a society.

IMO, there is a substantial difference between offering someone therapy, and ultimately HRT, for Gender Dysphoria, and treating a life threatening medical condition. If other prisoners are offered therapy for conditions they weren't being treated for pre-conviction, then perhaps in the interest of fairness, the authorities should offer gender counseling. But not otherwise.

Carolyn Marie

Not really. With suicides and attempts at self-castration, it could be argued to be life threatening. Courts have held that if a prison doctor and counselor decide HRT and even surgery are necessary, then it should be provided just as with any other treatment the Eighth Amendment would require be provided to avoid cruel and unusual punishment.

http://pacer.mad.uscourts.gov/dc/cgi-bin/recentops.pl?filename=wolf/pdf/kosilek%20eighth%20amendment%20decision.pdf

[Guest KimberlyF]

Hopefully the gov spends the min they can on Manning. And being TG as an excuse for lawlessness and plea for leniency is a slap in the face to everyone in the community who somehow found ways to follow the rules all these years.

[Carolyn Marie]

Here is some additional information on the subject. The whole issue concerning Manning seems rather complex. I'm still unclear on whether he has ever been diagnosed with GD.

http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/08/20/60451.htm

Carolyn Marie

[Guest LizMarie]

Such anger and bitterness here from some. And lack of humanity.

For those of you who were never military, Bradley Manning was faced with 2 choices:

1. Cooperate with his commanders in covering up a war crime, which he DID try to report, and thus become an accessory to murder; OR

2. Report it anyway via some other means.

Manning chose #2.

The following article of the UCMJ is what drove Manning to leak the video showing US helicopter pilots firing on wounded civilians (and killing them) and on children, none of whom were armed:

UCMJ Article 78: “Any person subject to this chapter who, knowing that an offense punishable by this chapter has been committed, receives, comforts, or assists the offender in order to hinder or prevent his apprehension, trial, or punishment shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

Further, in direct violation of UCMJ Article 37, both President Obama and General Dempsey both publicly declared Manning guilty before trial was even convened.

Finally, Afghan massacre suspect Robert Bales, accused of killing 16 civilians, 9 of them children, and his lawyer get words of encouragement, again from General Dempsey and President Obama both. Does anyone see the hypocrisy here?

Hundreds of veterans have viewed the leaked video and concluded that opening fire on the second vehicle was a clear war crime and constituted murder. International authorities have said that video clearly shows a war crime of murder being committed. But are those officers or their commanders being prosecuted? No, they are sailing ahead with their careers without even a verbal reprimand for committing murder.

And Bradley Manning, the young man who reported this crime to the world? He's going to be punished for doing the right thing.

I'd love to say more but this forum is the wrong place for such.

[Guest Jenn348]

It goes to show that these leaders are committed to their own careers and interests and not the principles they swore to defend.

When those who uncover crime are punished more than those who committed the crime, you know there's moral rot.

[VickySGV]

In the field, they have absolute power, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Not all officers are that way, and these involved here are generally the exception. This is far from over though in my estimation.

[Guest Jenni_S]

Not really. With suicides and attempts at self-castration, it could be argued to be life threatening. Courts have held that if a prison doctor and counselor decide HRT and even surgery are necessary, then it should be provided just as with any other treatment the Eighth Amendment would require be provided to avoid cruel and unusual punishment.

http://pacer.mad.uscourts.gov/dc/cgi-bin/recentops.pl?filename=wolf/pdf/kosilek%20eighth%20amendment%20decision.pdf

So once again, the convicted wife-murdering killer is being used to justify getting what "we" want. Hey, why not? I mean, if the killer can get theirs, why shouldn't I? And hey, that way I don't have to pay for anything, either! It's only fair, right?

Well that's it. Any community that keeps going back and using one of the most heinously vile people I've come across, and uses them to selfishly advance their own agenda, without regard to the damage it does to the perception of the community, without regard to a dead spouse, that only thinks of how something will benefit them, is not one I want to be a part of. I'm done. I am truly disgusted that this keeps coming back, again and again. "Kosilek! Let's all rally 'round the imprisoned for life murderer, it'll help get what I want! It's all about me, me, me!" Well, why not? You want to be equated with that? Go right ahead. I want nothing more to do with such a "community."

Have fun, trans-community. See how well that works out for you. You can have your murderer. I'll be out living my life. I hope the woman that had to die, so that your prisoner could be convicted and get their therapy so you could get yours, finds a way to haunt your dreams.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Manning also released information about our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and there was lists of civilians in Afghanistan who were working with our government. Their names obviously needed to be outed so that the drug kings could kill them...for trying to stabilize their homeland.

Another poster child for the TG community.

Maybe Manning could have shown some humanity when Manning put the innocent lives of good people at very serious risk beyond a theoretical suicide attempt?

[Guest Jenn348]

Not really. With suicides and attempts at self-castration, it could be argued to be life threatening. Courts have held that if a prison doctor and counselor decide HRT and even surgery are necessary, then it should be provided just as with any other treatment the Eighth Amendment would require be provided to avoid cruel and unusual punishment.

http://pacer.mad.uscourts.gov/dc/cgi-bin/recentops.pl?filename=wolf/pdf/kosilek%20eighth%20amendment%20decision.pdf

So once again, the convicted wife-murdering killer is being used to justify getting what "we" want. Hey, why not? I mean, if the killer can get theirs, why shouldn't I? And hey, that way I don't have to pay for anything, either! It's only fair, right?

Well that's it. Any community that keeps going back and using one of the most heinously vile people I've come across, and uses them to selfishly advance their own agenda, without regard to the damage it does to the perception of the community, without regard to a dead spouse, that only thinks of how something will benefit them, is not one I want to be a part of. I'm done. I am truly disgusted that this keeps coming back, again and again. "Kosilek! Let's all rally 'round the imprisoned for life murderer, it'll help get what I want! It's all about me, me, me!" Well, why not? You want to be equated with that? Go right ahead. I want nothing more to do with such a "community."

Have fun, trans-community. See how well that works out for you. You can have your murderer. I'll be out living my life. I hope the woman that had to die, so that your prisoner could be convicted and get their therapy so you could get yours, finds a way to haunt your dreams.

I'm not using Kosilek to argue for free access to trans medical treatment for all people, only prisoners. The Eighth Amendment and subsequent case law (including the Kosilek case) dictates that the government has a moral and legal obligation to provide treatments to prisoners that doctors deem necessary.

I'm arguing on principle. The law and morality still apply to even the worst offenders. Anything less is just situational ethics, IMHO.

[Guest Jenn348]

Manning also released information about our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and there was lists of civilians in Afghanistan who were working with our government. Their names obviously needed to be outed so that the drug kings could kill them...for trying to stabilize their homeland.

Another poster child for the TG community.

Maybe Manning could have shown some humanity when Manning put the innocent lives of good people at very serious risk beyond a theoretical suicide attempt?

I thought Wikileaks redacted that stuff. If not, care to cite a source that shows that Manning's leak resulted in innocent deaths?

[Guest Jenn348]

It's official, she has announced that she considers herself female and wants people to use the name Chelsea Manning.

http://www.bradleymanning.org/featured/heroic-whistle-blower-addresses-gender-publicly-ready-to-move-on-to-next-phase-of-her-life#comment-27569

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chelsea_Manning

Love her or hate her, it's time to start using the correct name and pronouns.

[Carolyn Marie]

In an interview on "The Today Show" this morning, Manning's attorney released a letter from her, saying that she is transsexual, wants to be referred to as a woman, and wants to be known henceforth as Chelsea. In keeping with our site rules, please conform to the pronoun rules.

Her attorney said he will fight for her right to be given HRT while in military prison, but that he had not discussed the issue of surgery with her and doesn't know her intentions regarding that. He is also planning to request a Presidential pardon for her. This is far from over.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

Manning also released information about our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and there was lists of civilians in Afghanistan who were working with our government. Their names obviously needed to be outed so that the drug kings could kill them...for trying to stabilize their homeland.

Another poster child for the TG community.

Maybe Manning could have shown some humanity when Manning put the innocent lives of good people at very serious risk beyond a theoretical suicide attempt?

I thought Wikileaks redacted that stuff. If not, care to cite a source that shows that Manning's leak resulted in innocent deaths?

Lets say hypothetically I'm wrong. Are you defending the actions of Manning?

[Guest KimberlyF]

In an interview on "The Today Show" this morning, Manning's attorney released a letter from her, saying that she is transsexual, wants to be referred to as a woman, and wants to be known henceforth as Chelsea. In keeping with our site rules, please conform to the pronoun rules.

Which rule? This one?

1) Rule number 1 here is that proper pronouns will be used at all times when talking to other users.

Is Manning a user here? I always try to address Manning the same way whenever discussions about Manning come up.

[Carolyn Marie]

In an interview on "The Today Show" this morning, Manning's attorney released a letter from her, saying that she is transsexual, wants to be referred to as a woman, and wants to be known henceforth as Chelsea. In keeping with our site rules, please conform to the pronoun rules.

Which rule? This one?

1) Rule number 1 here is that proper pronouns will be used at all times when talking to other users.

Is Manning a user here? I always try to address Manning the same way whenever discussions about Manning come up.

That is the rule I cited, yes, although you didn't copy it in its entirety. As long as I've been here, it has applied to anyone, member or not, who self identifies as TG/TS. Obviously, if you refer to her as simply "Manning" or "Private Manning," you need not worry about it. Thank you.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest KimberlyF]

In an interview on "The Today Show" this morning, Manning's attorney released a letter from her, saying that she is transsexual, wants to be referred to as a woman, and wants to be known henceforth as Chelsea. In keeping with our site rules, please conform to the pronoun rules.

Which rule? This one?

1) Rule number 1 here is that proper pronouns will be used at all times when talking to other users.

Is Manning a user here? I always try to address Manning the same way whenever discussions about Manning come up.

That is the rule I cited, yes, although you didn't copy it in its entirety. As long as I've been here, it has applied to anyone, member or not, who self identifies as TG/TS. Obviously, if you refer to her as simply "Manning" or "Private Manning," you need not worry about it. Thank you.

Carolyn Marie

So then if someone were to call Mike Penner 'Christine' despite the express statements to the contrary by MP, that would be against the rules as you see them and as they've been enforced?

[Carolyn Marie]

.So then if someone were to call Mike Penner 'Christine' despite the express statements to the contrary by MP, that would be against the rules as you see them and as they've been enforced?

I'm not going to debate hypothetical situations with you, Kimberly. I've cited the rule as it applies in this case. Thank you.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Billie De]

I have many Mixed Feelings on this whole subject of Manning.

The part of me that served in the ARMY feels she is a Traitor to our country in some sense or another....I agree something had to be done about the War Crime Video and somewhat agree with the way she handle it.. I haven't followed it closely so I don't know if she tried to go through the proper channels, Chain of Command and didn't get the response she wanted.. It is your duty as a Soldier to report War Crimes to your Command. But that Didn't give her the Reason or the right to release all the other Documents she did.. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Now for the Treatment of Trans in the prison system. This is a Minefield. On one part I can sympathize with treatment in prison but on the flip side maybe the Trans in question should have thought about that before breaking the law....I agree with maintaining the level of care that she/he was at before entering the system but not furthering it. This where I agree with our Tax $$ not be spent on Further Transition. Prisoners seem to get more civil rights then law abiding citizens.

Living in Prison Town USA ((17 Prisons within a 15 Mile radius)) I see and hear about a lot of this so I am a tad bit Jaded, The Prison System here actually has a system that will sell products made by Prisoners at a substantially lower price to the General Public (Usually around my cost) thus forcing me to compete against my own tax dollars with a Labor force that gets Paid $1 a day. Yes there is someone worse then Walmart.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I loved Kristen Beck's take on FB

"This person took an oath to protect American interest and defend the constitution, and took additional oaths due to security clearances to protect information that leaders deem secret. There are legal avenues to whistle blow or bring attention to issues. THIS person is a liar and a thief and a traitor to many people. If Bradley is truly "Chelsea" then "she" is a traitor to ME personally"

"Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "I have a Dream" speech was 50 years ago....I am still hoping for HIS dream of equality for ALL. America to be a beacon of Freedom and equality, to see his dream of the "red hills" come alive. I am still dreaming of equality....

Manning is a tarnish on my dream, he is a tarnish on Dr. Kings Dream."