Pedestals, a commentary.

[Guest EvaO]

I kinda have to agree with Shilo on the refusal to use proper pronouns because the person is in jail or a murderer or a communist or a whatever. If transitioning is not a medical need, but a privilege bestowed only to law-abiding Americans, then that insinuates it's not a medical need like (even hardcore criminals are treated for heart disease and depression in prison)...and if it's not a medical need, then insurance companies are right about not covering the cost of trans-related medical treatment, since it's elective. And if we start calling Chelsea Manning "he" simply because we think she's X or Y or Z, then that we're really saying is that we can choose to misgender anyone just because we think they are a bad person. In other words, they're gender identity can be easily contested. Isn't that what we're sort of collectively fighting against? Do people call Hitler a "she" because he was an evil man? Aren't we all fighting for the same rights as cisgenders?

[Guest Robin Winter]

I don't see the community supporting her. I see a pretty divided opinion.

I think the threads on this subject on this site supports that view. I have no idea how the debate is going elsewhere, but I assume that there is a debate.

Carolyn Marie

Of course those who aren't the target of the community displeasure don't see the issue. Nothing new with that.

I wasn't aware of anyone who was the target of displeasure of the entire community?

[Sakura]

"That isn't what really happened and the police report is online. CF was reported on two occasions by two different schools with HS girls that practice at the pool. CF was not in the process of getting dressed. CF who has stated publicly that CF enjoys exebitionism and making people feel uncomfortable (CF had a very big online presence) was siting around naked. When asked to cover up, CF said CF has the legal right to expose little CF to whomever CF chooses."

Wow, I didn't know that, Kimberly;

That is kinda the point of this post i think

Having ones own opinion and not just swallowing the party lines. or what activist want you to believe.

they make colleen francis out to be the victim, but it is far from the case, in many of thier own blogs they are a self describe sexual deviant, that loves their penis . has no intention of getting rid of it and likes to make people as uncomfortable as possible. in one of thier blog enteries they almost blantantly admit that they are attracted to young girls emphasis on young , seeing as how they chose this locker room knowing young girls would be changing in there. i think Colleen francis motives were fairly clear, with all that is now known about this person funny the activists have suddenly stopped shinning the spot light on them as soon as the rad fems began eating up all the back story about this person. "she" was suddenly taken off the pedestal they were so readily thrust upon

while i have nothing against non op trans folk. Colleen francis is one of those that set my creep meter on red alert.

Personlly i do not think there is such a thing as trans-activism . the laws our activist fight for do not only encompass transsexuals but will stretch out to encompass virtually any one who says they are gender non conforming individuals, with no medical documentation needed to back that claim up, which opens the door far wider than most realize , when a law that allows any male to just walk up into a female only locker room and be like " oh don't worry ladies i am a woman on the inside, just go about your buisness" with out any proof. that is not just dangerous to natal women. it is dangerous to our reputation as well. if one useing the gender umberlla to protect them self does anything nefarious while in female only spaces it is us who will shoulder it. and if one thinks that is not an issue * points up to her previous paragraph * But that is a non issue to many so long as we get our rights.

In any case . it is a beautifully written thought provoking post Sarah. Thank you.

[Guest EvaO]

Sakura, reading online news reports and blogs does not mean you're not forming your own opinions. We all use (I hope) news and the media to learn about what's going on in the world. Furthermore, the argument that "transgender rights opens a door for pedophiles and men to prey on women" is the same argument bigoted politicians use to deny trans-people access to appropriate bathrooms. That means, I, a pre-op trans woman, am at risk of being policed for using the women's restroom. This is not cool. Now that argument has gone from being a political disagreement to affecting my life and my access to my gender's bathroom. Yes, there will be potential men like Colleen Francis who will abuse the trans community for their own perverted gain, but policing women-only spaces and saying trans women are not women because they have a penis or are not "passable" because of someone like CF is illogical. There are many, many, many men AND women who abuse systems everyday and they should be caught and prosecuted, but that doesn't mean we should all be denied rights. Sorry, I don't like that insinuation.

As for proof, are you saying all "real" trans women should walk around with papers or a sign that suggests their "realness" or trans status? Isn't that an awful lot like a certain period in European history where a certain group of people were made to wear stars of David on their arm?

I don't know how this subject ties in with the original post, but I feel I have to call this out.

[Sakura]

I my self have not formed an opinion on Manning , hell i did not even know of this person til like two weeks ago.

With reguards to violent "transgendered" offenders

I find it interesting that many of them. their gender identity disorder did not manifest its self until they were caught tried and convicted of their crimes. " oh i only raped and murdered that woman , because i was struggling with my gender dysphoira " and soon laws will start coming into effect that allows them into female prisons regardless of physical sex status. so i see many using it as a convient attempt to escape the harsher realities of male prison. i will i ever refer to a raping murdering male as a woman or she.

Also my ideas on medical treatment for prisoners in general is a bit more hard nosed. if one is sentenced to life in prision , that sentence is for the remainder of thier natural life, if you develop heart problems or cancer while doing a life sentence , then i am sorry but to me that marks the end of your natural life. i think if one is being treated for a condition before entering prison, treatment should continue , but not advance. prison is a punishment not a second chance.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Many interesting points being made here, the point of this thread was to make people think a little, maybe examine how their own opinions are shaped by the larger community narrative. I am not making assumptions Shilo, there is inevitably going to be a majority opinion in any community or any group, I made an observation from my own experiences with this community. This community has a habit of becoming very angry at anyone who challenges certain lines of thinking, I used Kristin Beck as a great example of this. This was someone who was put on a pedestal by our community I see her being mentioned here and elsewhere time and time again, I can honestly say the Beck hero worship annoyed me but I kept my opinion to my self because I could see why many of our members especially our Veterans may feel a kinship with this woman. However.. she makes a statement that is not popular, possibly hurtful towards some and instantly many of the very people who made her into their personal hero turned on her in an instant.

As others have said here in this thread, this very type of stuff happens here all the time, there is definitely at times a popular opinion that everyone marches forward with and there is always a few people who don't quite see eye to eye.. Sometimes yes this turns into a healthy and very interesting debate where both sides make interesting points.. Unfortunately other times those with the majority opinion go out of their way to quiet those opinions that they do not like, or are uncomfortable with hearing. The fact is that this is a community that is based around something that can at time revolve around uncomfortable subjects, and it is unreasonable that we expect people to keep quiet just because their opinion may possibly be offensive or hurtful. Yes the terms and conditions are clear about certain things, however that does not mean that we get to avoid anything that makes us uncomfortable. Even worse some topics can be very very muddy and have much more context then just "This person is like me, this person is trans." This is why I brought up Colleen Francis and Kosilek because while yes you could place them under that trans umbrella there are circumstances beyond merely being trans that muddy the waters.

I think Sakura's post is a fantastic example of this, she has strong feelings about people like Kosilek and Francis and their situations that has her question the veracity of their claims of being trans. What is the natural reaction in this community to a stance like that? Accusations that the person who feels this way is transphobic, bigoted, narrow minded, and a near demand for them to stop immediately and use the proper pronouns, but there are some really good reasons to be suspicious. This is actually why Eva, that I will continue to refer to Private Manning with gender neutral terms only, because I am making a point in support of those who have their own reasons and opinions as to not buy into the veracity of someones claims of being transgender right off the bat. You certainly do not have to like that someone has that opinion, you can speak out against that opinion.. but this community has absolutely no right to demand anyone change their opinion about anything. Debate is a far better and healthier option then outright cooling any opposition to these popular opinions.

Eva I understand your position, and I certainly welcome your opinion on the matter. I personally feel that just saying one is trans doesn't mean they are telling the truth, I think that yes having a diagnoses of Gender Dysphoria should be a bare minimum of using the gender appropriate bathroom. Just being able to claim within a vacuum with no proof at all that one is trans should not be an easy out for someone who goes into a bathroom that does not match their birth gender. Inevitably there will be trans people who get arrested because someone freaks out, and I think that diagnoses should be enough to clear them.. But just saying "Yeah IM trans" with absolutely no history or evidence to back it up is dangerous and it truly does open the doors to dangerous individuals abusing our community to get their jollies.

Shilo, I can tell you are angry by this post and I know that some others like your self that I also consider friends here feel offended by what I have said here. I knew going into this that saying this would draw anger, and possibly cause me to lose a few friends and I accept those consequences I stand by what I said and I will not apologize for it. You and anyone else who may dislike what I have had to say is certainly welcome to feel that way, you are welcome to hate me or think anything you like and I will accept that. I certainly welcome your own opinions on what I have brought up here, I welcome anyone's opinions and I certainly respect anyone's ability to state how they feel about it.

I do know for a fact that some I know here are making assumptions of my own feelings about Private Manning due to my stand of refusing to use pronouns.The fact is like Sakura I hadn't really been following this story much at all until all of this blew up like crazy in the trans community, and I was largely staying out of the discussions about it because of that. However some friends of mine on this forum took a stand that was not particularly popular and and then when Private Manning released the document stating their gender preference, some took that as a queue to inform those in the dissenting opinion that it was time to accept Manning as one of our own and use the proper pronouns. I found this demand to be offensive, so instead of trying to silence that persons opinion I chose to regardless of my own feelings on this subject to make a stand for the dissenting opinion. I will always support someones right to have an unpopular opinion no matter how unpopular that may make me. I am doing what I believe is right.

Thank you for all the thoughts from everyone so far, I certainly welcome all opinions and perspectives on what I have said.

Sarah

[Guest LauraJen]

I am going to probably be publishing this in other locations, but I felt the need to share it here as well even though I know it will make some unhappy I do feel it is something that needs to be said and I am doing so with out apology.

...

I have only been active in the transgender community for the last 8 months, but the truth is I have spent many many years watching the community. I came out in 2009 my self at the age of 24, and I spent the years after that working on transitioning. I finally decided to get more vocal in the community because I had been through a lot and I felt there was a good deal I could share to help others. Of course there have been moments where I needed support as well I am not quite as sunshine and roses as I often portray.

...

Sarah, I for one don't think any less of you whatsoever for posting this. Hopefully you know I have a great deal of respect for you from the various posts and comments I have made, and I also feel this way about anybody who can speak like this about something that was always going to upset some people, but is nonetheless important. I saw this post briefly last night before there were any responses but because of the time zone difference it was late and I was heading for bed. I made a note to read it properly this morning and didn't expect so many replies in such a short time - having read it from start to finish I now see why. It's a controversial topic, but one that deserves attention. I know you have only been active for a few months but I am still very glad that you decided to get involved. Personally I have gotten a lot out of knowing you and I know you aren't always "sunshine and roses", but understandably I don't think many of us are. Heck I know I can get very low at times. We all need support sometimes so it is good to get involved, to whatever extent.

As I am not even in the US I don't really hear in detail about a lot of what you describe here - Private Manning was only very briefly mentioned at the end of the 1 o'clock news a few days ago and it wasn't until towards the end of this thread when I finally realised who we are talking about here. Instead I end up hearing about completely different trans public figures, like for example we have a trans woman on a reality show at the moment, and I come to my own conclusions based on what I see and hear. Nevertheless, I was able to fully understand your post all the way through - for a while I have been aware that as a community, we unfortunately have our problems. I can't say this any better than you have.

But really, well done for posting this Sarah and I hope that you can come to a swift and constructive resolution with those that have been made upset by this post. Sometimes we do need to take a good look at ourselves. Sometimes how we behave is public (like this forum for instance) and if we are not careful we just end up giving bigots more to fight with.

[Guest Maria_B]

But if you do agree with the majority, what then? You become ''the enemy'' to those who don't agree, you get called mindless sheep and your thoughts and ideals and narrowed down to worshipping someone because they share the trans label.

That being said, I don't post my opinion on a lot of stuff because I don't want to start a fight with people for disagreeing. I don't like to keep up with any news because it makes me sad and depressed about the world, I don't even know the names of people you're talking about except Manning because they were mentioned recently.

Heck, I'm thinking about not posting this to avoid a fight.

We are allowed as transgender individuals allowed to have opinions that offend you. You do not have a right to try to quash and silence all opinions that you find uncomfortable or offensive.

Now I realise in here the you refers to the ''group'', but the wording here actively puts the foot in someone's rear. Someone who has never tried to quash or squash or silence or mash, but is being told off for something they haven't done.

Its the same with religious stuff too.

''Catholics are busy doing x and x and x and they shouldn't be allowed too'' rather than ''WBC is doing x and x and x and it's not right''. Or ''Catholics are bigots'' instead of ''That group you were talking to are prejudiced''.

Differing opinions is healthy for discourse, but only healthy discourse thrives from differing opinions.

[Guest DianeATL]

Once again, just like coming out and transitioning, you show a great deal of strength, courage, and conviction as well as a wonderful writing style.

To me, the fundamental issue always seems to boil down to trying to put labels and group any group of people into a single box whether that be Trans, Democrat, Wealthy, or whatever the label. Just last night I was at a TG meetup dinner and the girl to my right got into a heated political discussion with the two girls across the table. Two things struck me about it, first, each side was only interested in stating and defending their positions, no one was open for listening or change, secondly, whenever a label was placed, attributes were automatically assumed. You came from a family of means therefore, you don't know what it is like to be poor, you have no appreciation for those who are, you only care about making more money at others expense, and so forth.

I know for myself, and probably most people, I am more like a Chinese Buffet, one from column one, one from column 2, not a prepackaged meal. My political, social and economic beliefs can vary from far left to far right and everything in between so don't call me a "x", I am me.

I think that is true of the "trans" label too. It means one thing about my mind and spirit being out of sync with my body, you can't assume any other beliefs or positions based on that one fact. We all are individuals on our own personal paths through life. Feedback (dissent) is welcomed when constructive and hurtful when it is defending a position by trying to devalue another's position. I have always sought to have dissent and discussion as valuable way to understand alternatives, risks, and rewards. If we both agree on everything, one of us is not needed.

I think that one of the traits that is generally associated with men (here I go putting a trait with a label) is the ability to have a heated disagreement on one subject, then go have a beer together and remain friends. That is one male trait I hope to keep as I transition.

It's OK for us to agree to disagree, that is what brings all of the variety to life.

[Sakura]

As Sarah mentioned. I knew it would not be a popular line of thought it never is any time or anywere else i mention it around the community.

I do not deny your right to not like what i am insinuating . and i am not trying to make you like it. but i will also not redact what i have said either to make it more palatable.

As i said my issues with what we feel we are entitled to. is as a i said. in that fight it has extended the scope to go well beyond those with a medical condition, where transition is a theraputic and necessary step in treatment of ones GID. to encompass any one who claims they belong there. regardless of actual reason. if one does not pass, they virtually wear thier trans identity on their sleeve anyway. so having a diagnosis of GID is nothing but benifical to them. and a small step and price to pay in protecting ones self from legal action and the cisgender we claim to identify as.

I feel the right to dignity and safety should be afforded to every one. i do how ever have an issue when ones rights infringe abolish and other wise trample on some one else rights to feel safe and maintain their dignity. with out giving any amount of due consideration. or any amount of sympathy in most cases. it is the "who cares they will adapt mentallity". i often times see with our "activists" that is upsetting.

[Sakura]

i will no longer hijack your post Sarah. again great topic

[Guest EvaO]

Just for the record, and I'd have to reread the entire thread (which I kinda don't wanna do), I don't recall anyone calling anyone a bigot or a transphobe or a Martian on this particular post. I just saw a bunch of people arguing about certain trans-related topics -- some were more passionate or aggressive than others and were called out for their anger (as should be done). Furthermore, I think the argument that we are all drones or sheep can pretty much be thrown out the window now because, as the thread proves, we all had varying opinions about things that we were all very passionate about.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

But if you do agree with the majority, what then? You become ''the enemy'' to those who don't agree, you get called mindless sheep and your thoughts and ideals and narrowed down to worshipping someone because they share the trans label.

That being said, I don't post my opinion on a lot of stuff because I don't want to start a fight with people for disagreeing. I don't like to keep up with any news because it makes me sad and depressed about the world, I don't even know the names of people you're talking about except Manning because they were mentioned recently.

Heck, I'm thinking about not posting this to avoid a fight.

We are allowed as transgender individuals allowed to have opinions that offend you. You do not have a right to try to quash and silence all opinions that you find uncomfortable or offensive.

Now I realise in here the you refers to the ''group'', but the wording here actively puts the foot in someone's rear. Someone who has never tried to quash or squash or silence or mash, but is being told off for something they haven't done.

Its the same with religious stuff too.

''Catholics are busy doing x and x and x and they shouldn't be allowed too'' rather than ''WBC is doing x and x and x and it's not right''. Or ''Catholics are bigots'' instead of ''That group you were talking to are prejudiced''.

Differing opinions is healthy for discourse, but only healthy discourse thrives from differing opinions.

Maria, you never have to be afraid to state your opinion with me regardless of how it may make me feel. I wouldn't have posted this if I wasn't open to hearing out other people's opinions. The majority is every bit as entitled to an opinion as those who dissent, I am simply saying that the minority opinion has a right to be said regardless if one thinks its foolish, offensive, or whatever.

Yes I did write what I wrote in a way to make a strong statement, the words I used were absolutely meant to sting a little. The statement I made could apply to more than just the trans community, this same issue is rearing its head all over society in general. People seem to be less and less likely to defend speech they do not agree with, and often only concerned with their own views or opinions. I wrote what I wrote as a commentary and it is only based upon my own observations, I am not expecting a thread full of posts that agree. People are free to feel whatever they want about my post or me, I did what I feel was right.

For what its worth Maria I think you should voice your opinion more often, I think you have a lot you can contribute and I appreciate you voicing your self here and I hope everyone who has an opinion on this or anything really will share it here.

i will no longer hijack your post Sarah. again great topic

Thanks Sakura, I certainly don't feel like you've Hijacked the thread I think you have contributed quite nicely.

Diane thank you and I agree, like I said earlier everything I have mentioned here about Majority Opinions vs dissenting opinions can be seen through out society. If we're not careful the ability to voice unpopular opinions may be lost, I don't have to agree with someones opinion to see the value of what that person has to say.

Sarah

[Guest KarenLyn]

Thank you Sarah. Your observations exactly match my experience with the local support group.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Thank you Sarah. Your observations exactly match my experience with the local support group.

Sadly I think there are some who believe that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that the trans community tends to only allow one way of thinking at any given time. Bullying and Censorship is absolutely wrong beyond all shadow of a doubt, and yet I have been basically told that the bigger person steps back and sees the bigger picture. NO the bigger person does not see people stomping on other people with differing opinion and step back to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that bullying is bullying and the bigger person does everything in their power to scream from the rooftops and say its wrong.

I still stand by every word of my post, and I believe in every single word.

Sarah

[Guest LizMarie]

Right, Sarah. Bullying is bullying. So bullying anyone is still bullying. We could apply the Golden Rule but instead some of us choose to bully someone, someone unpopular and not in a position to defend themselves.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Thank you Sarah. Your observations exactly match my experience with the local support group.

This matches so many people I've known and also comments on this board by people who have transitioned and want to connect with someone and have never been able to do it. Seems like very few people involved with this longterm if they haven't made some type of job out of it.

[Guest Tamar]

I was also appalled by the high suicide rate among Transgendered Folk. The suicide rate for Pre-op Transsexuals is 31%. Over 50% of our users have had at least one suicide attempt by age 20 in a survey here. Our mission is to stem that dismal tide. Another estimate puts the rate at nine times the norm. Online Suicide Prevention is what we do best having handled 78,800 Crisis's in our chat room since we began operations.

Our Mission is to lower the horrendous suicide rate and provide online support for all Transgendered persons and their families.

May I respectfully suggest,this topic has had it's share of attention?

[MaryEllen]

Yes Tamar, this topic has had more than its share of attention. If the negativity doesn't cease and return to a rational discussion, I will close it.

MaryEllen

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Yes Tamar, this topic has had more than its share of attention. If the negativity doesn't cease and return to a rational discussion, I will close it.

MaryEllen

Well I understand and I agree. I wrote what I wrote because I felt it was the right thing to do and to say. I certainly welcome any and all opinions on what I wrote, and I think there are some very well thought out and well said responses through out the thread and they have sadly been lost in some of the negativity.

We have some truly thoughtful members and I really do thank everyone who contributed their opinions positive and negative to this in a respectful manner.

Hugs,

Sarah

[Guest KimberlyF]

Sarah,

I think your topic is very important and needs to be restated again and again.

This site preaches moderation, not censorship. That has been the wish of the board owner stated again and again. The fact that she has restated it in posts says it doesn't seem to always work that way.

Our Mission is to lower the horrendous suicide rate and provide online support for all Transgendered persons and their families.

Yes...and this is related to Sarah's post.

There have been so many intro posts that started with something along the lines of 'long time lurker'. After reading for a while, they feel comfortable and decide to post.

What about people who's positions or groups are mocked? They are trying to find a place to fit after never belonging and see their views belittled or whatever...why would they ever register?

It's understood that TGs cut across every racial, social, religious and political line.

It is possible to ignore all of that and find happiness. There are people of every racial, social, religious and political group that has found a path to self-acceptance.

My opinion...the TG community is more a PAC concerned with politics and PR than concerned about the mental and physical health of people who ID that way.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Sarah,

I think your topic is very important and needs to be restated again and again.

This site preaches moderation, not censorship. That has been the wish of the board owner stated again and again. The fact that she has restated it in posts says it doesn't seem to always work that way.

Our Mission is to lower the horrendous suicide rate and provide online support for all Transgendered persons and their families.

Yes...and this is related to Sarah's post.

There have been so many intro posts that started with something along the lines of 'long time lurker'. After reading for a while, they feel comfortable and decide to post.

What about people who's positions or groups are mocked? They are trying to find a place to fit after never belonging and see their views belittled or whatever...why would they ever register?

It's understood that TGs cut across every racial, social, religious and political line.

It is possible to ignore all of that and find happiness. There are people of every racial, social, religious and political group that has found a path to self-acceptance.

My opinion...the TG community is more a PAC concerned with politics and PR than concerned about the mental and physical health of people who ID that way.

Kim I agree, and that is often my concern as well how many people choose not to come here for help because they feel that we are not going to be kind to them if they do not have an opinion we like. I remember a few months back a newer member made a post about this very subject saying she felt her political views being unpopular here were regularly being belittled and she tried to have a conversation about it. I will say most people did respect her opinion and respond well but there are always those who do not and feel the need to preach as though that persons opinions are smaller than theirs.

The simple fact is, that the problem of stomping on speech one doesn't like isn't even just a trans problem its a Human problem. The transgender community tends to hold a very high opinion of its self in open mindedness, but the problem is just being accepting of non gender conforming people does not represent being wholly open minded. Truthfully as I said this is a problem with human nature in general Apes are highly territorial and very hierarchial in nature, Humans being creatures of ideas we tend to be highly territorial when it comes to ideas and if someone has something that intrudes on those ideas its human nature to stomp it out.

I absolutely wrote what I wrote in a strong tone because I think when you make a stand about freedom of thought you absolutely cannot give an inch on it. When it comes to the freedom of thought and the free exchange of ideas each of us has to stand up and use that ability and stand up for that ability. We as a society, as a community, and as a group we all have to make the decision to stand up and use our freedom of thought and stand up for those freedoms and even the freedom of others to stand up and say things we don't like.

Sometimes standing up for unpopular opinions is hard, and it will earn you a number of enemies but anything that is worth doing often is hard. I believe in everyones right and ability to have opinions that others don't like, and I believe in my heart that writing this was the right thing to do. I also feel that as a moderator of this forum it is important that at least I personally make a stand to show members, and potential members that we are accepting of all ideas even those that are not commonly accepted in the trans community.

Like you said Kim, transgender people come from everywhere from all kinds of backgrounds, there are bound to be all sorts of different variations of opinions on things. I may not always agree with what people have to say but I am definitely appreciative that they are able to and willing to say what they believe. Like I said before we have some very thoughtful members and mods who are able to share their opinions in a respectful manner and I think that should always be encouraged.

Sarah

[Guest CassieX]

An interesting read which seemed to alternate between pointy sticks and hugs in the discussion.

As a recently retired Navy Veteran the whole Private Manning debate really troubles me when I see hordes of Transgender Rights supporters flocking to condemn that individuals conviction. To me the issue was never about that individuals sexuality but about the fact that they violated their oath of enlistment and deliberately leaked classified information to the public which put the lives of who knows how many service-members in jeopardy. Every service-member who serves suffers from stress and for transgender service-members the stress can be that much higher but that is ZERO excuse for doing what that individual did. Today I work alongside several veterans who are still suffering from the nightmares and effects of having served in some of the more recent conflicts. I have the utmost respect for what they did as they served Honorably. For Private Manning I have none.

I don't know, maybe you had to have served to get this or maybe you don't, but it's my opinion, so take it as you will.

I missed the whole throw Kristen Beck under the bus back lash from our community as the last last thing I read about her was about the Healing Grounds charity she established.

So, I just played Google catch up and found out that she had expressed similar views on Private Manning to mine, even with the Washington Post correction/retraction. Ahh well, it takes more that two retired Navy Vets to be right.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the other so-called Transgender Community Heroes you mentioned to opinion one way or another. I'd have to fall back on my moral-compass and say, if they are/were doing something that is obviously wrong then don't reward them for it. But our community, just like the World population as a whole has more readers of the National Enquirer than the New York Times.

Thank You Sarah for starting this. I do so enjoy your thought provoking posts. I can't wait to see the next one.

Hugs,

Cassie

[MaryEllen]

You're right, Cassie. This topic wasn't meant to be about this persons gender identity. Although some turned it into that. It was the crime committed that was supposed to be the focus.

It's strange that no one seems to be concerned about Edward Snowden.

MaryEllen

[Sakura]

I certainly apperciate edward snowden and what he did, exposing the largest and highly illegal act our government has done in prolly the past 100 years. dude deserves a medal. i my self purposely did not speak of "manning" as i was ignorant of the case ( i only knew of this person. like 2 weeks ago , show you how much i pay attention to that stuff) With Manning , now that i too have played google catch up. What Manning leaked was in its self depicting a violent an excesive use of force. on unarmed civilians . killing several and injuring two children , not to mention killing two CBS( i think was the news station ) photagraphers. several acts of unlawful touture. among other things. By military law and the geniva conventions rules of warfare . the acts were highly illegal , and Manning was legally obligated to report the findings, which manning did and was pretty much laughed off by their superior officers.

Being not of a military back ground my self i will not pretend to under stand the oath Bradly manning took. or what that means. but due to the nature of the highly illegal acts depicted in what manning leaked . i do not think manning should be thee only one doing prison time, same with what snowden leaked. there should be impeachments and inquires . but have yet to really see any of that thus far.