A General Discussion about "Passing" as a woman

[Guest LizMarie]

Here are the things that I find most influence being accepted as a woman:

1. Voice (pitch/resonance)

2. Facial Hair (#1 and #2 are interchangeable in my book. These two are the two single largest visual/auditory immediate cues that will lead to you being misgendered.)

3. Personal confidence

Less important but still important.

4. Appropriate dress - if you are full up drag queen made up at noon getting a burger, you're calling attention to your self. Dress like other women!

5. Pitch, aka "prosody", which is not pitch or resonance but how women speak, the intonations, rhythm, cadence, usage of tone, etc. I've met women who speak more like men (in terms of "prosody") but they get away with it because the other parts of the package all say "woman".

6. Mannerisms.

Things that matter much less but which can work for or against you depending on the above:

7. A heavily "male" face. This matters less and less as you get older. Don't believe me? Go to the mall and look at women, especially older women.

8. The size of your bustline. This matters a lot less than people think, however a large bust line that shows clear cleavage can be a distraction to male eyes.

9. How "curvy" you are. This matters a lot less than people think because lots of women are not that curvy. This can also be accentuated or disguised based on choice of clothing. See #3 above.

In short, the first three items have the largest impact on your acceptance. The second three items aren't nearly as important. And the final three items (over which so many people seem to fuss) actually are some of the least important factors, in my experience. I'm sure others have had different experiences though and so might rank these factors differently or even point to other factors that I've forgotten or discounted.

What do each of you consider as important or unimportant factors in passing?

[Guest DianeATL]

Good points all - I think confidence is really big. The old saying "fake it till you make it" applies to passing too. If you move and carry yourself as a woman the details will still give you away on close examination, but most people will not examine you closely enough to see them.

I have been practicing walking and carrying myself as much as possible even when in boy mode. I watch how women walk and stand and there are a couple of quick tips I have noticed.

Men stand ready for a fight, feet shoulder width apart and balanced. Many women naturally assume what I think is ballet position 1 (never took it) but with the heel of the front foot against the instep of the back foot at anywhere from a 45-90 degree angle. So I practice that position when standing at rest to try to program that to be my natural default position.

Similarly, men tend to walk with their feet shoulder width apart. Their footprints would be two parallel lines, one for each foot. The runway model exaggerates the feminine walk by actually crossing over the center line with each step, If you drew a line along their path the right footprints would be on the left side of the line and vice versa for the left. Women don't go that far, but I do try to bring my steps more onto a line so that my footprints would be right up next to the center line of my walk. To do that takes a little hip sway which I don't want to over do, but just become fluid with more of a hip movement in the walk than my man counterpart.

Of course I practice sitting with my knees together and hands in my lap instead of elbows on table and legs spread.

Hopefully these little mannerisms will help me make the 50/50 pass - that is passing at 50 mph or 50 feet away. ;-)

[Guest KimberlyF]

I don't think there is a single magic bullet.

Hair length & style is very big though.

People for example call me 'sir' from the back based on short hair, jeans and t-shirt or shorts and holding my kids hands w/my long haired wife. I can do a decent voice at this point and have had laser and don't have a noticeable shadow after shaving. It never gets to that point.

[Guest LizMarie]

Oh, I don't think there's any single magic bullet either, Kim. I was just listing what, in my personal (and limited) experience has made the most difference for me. That's why I encouraged discussion.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I agree that some things are more important than others...like if you had 7 of 9 on that list spot on you could have an easy time of it-only the two you aren't good at cant be a baritone and deep beard shadow. But at the same time, if you just had a clear face and perfect voice, the two top ones listed, it would be difficult to be pegged as female.

[VickySGV]

For my experience, I would switch your number 1 and number 5. But in current #5 the speech mannerisms such as smiling when greeting another women, and being neutral, but pleasant to a male serve me well. "Hello (and possibly 'dear') to another woman along with a smile. "How do you do Sir" with less smile and eye contact, for a male. As long as you are in the high baritone or the tenor range, its the rhythm of the words and choice of vocabulary that have helped the most.

[Guest -guest-]

Even after having worked for over two years in busy offices, encountering and interacting with all sorts of people, I can't say for sure whether I passed as a woman or simply as a transgender person.

I never worked on honing my "skills"; I softened my voice a little and did pay attention to mannerisms and eye contact. And I dressed appropriately. But I didn't think anyone would mistake me for a natal female.

Not a single person ever looked at me funny or treated me in some way that indicated curiosity or discomfort. I assumed that they were just being polite. Even now, though I'm hardly a paragon of femininity, I just don't attract any undue attention.

[Guest Carla_Davis]

Thanks for posting this LIzMarie,

In my case, Facial Hair and Personal Confidence are tie for #1

I also agree with Dress and Mannerisms being next.

My Personality and Smile overcome some of my flaws such as Voice.

One thing that I also do to improve my walk is wear shoes with a small heel causing me to take smaller, more feminine steps.

Apparently I am doing something right because I have never been "Outed" in Public.

[Guest LizMarie]

This is exactly what I hoped to see, how others prioritize things in their own experiences. As Kimberly noted, there's no absolute right or wrong here. This is about what each of us has discovered that for ourselves has made the most difference.

And it's educational to see how each of us has prioritized different aspects in order to reach being passable.

Oh, and Carla, I love a skirt and a low heel for exactly that reason. It helps accentuate the feminine.

[Guest lostflower]

Just remember this joke

How do you find the transsexual in a room full of Drag Queens

She's the one wearing jeans and a t-shirt that looks like a woman

Act as if you pass and show no fear or doubt in how you look even if you're scared to death that you look like a man with boobs and you'll do better than you believed possible, it worked for me.

The reason for this is transgirls are still incredibly rare even though there are more of us every year, gender binary indoctrination actually works in our favour in this case the conclusion most people will reach is if you look mostly female which as said above contains huge widely variable characteristic) then the most likely conclusion they could reach is you are female.

Hannah

[Guest Kylie2112]

Thanks for posting this LIzMarie,

In my case, Facial Hair and Personal Confidence are tie for #1

I also agree with Dress and Mannerisms being next.

My Personality and Smile overcome some of my flaws such as Voice.

One thing that I also do to improve my walk is wear shoes with a small heel causing me to take smaller, more feminine steps.

Apparently I am doing something right because I have never been "Outed" in Public.

I agree with voice tending to be lower if you have high levels of confidence and more or less look the part. Mannerisms in particular seem to be the biggest "sell" since that is how most everyone will get their first impression of you; your mannerisms don't necessarily need to overtly feminine/masculine, they just need to appear natural.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I will agree with the facial hair being one of the most important factors to passing, for me I couldn't shave my facial hair very well due to how it inflamed the skin on my face so I was never ever seen as female. Then I started laser and I started getting referred to as miss and all that while I was still presenting as male.

Confidence at first wasn't really in great supply either I went full time because I kept getting referred to as miss, so I was super nervous when I went out for the first time presenting as a woman. Things just sort of fell into place for me with the facial hair going away.

As for clothes, I dress how I like usually no one has complained about my style yet.

Liz you point out the face shape, and curvyness not being important, and I think that's true many of tend to want to become sort of this idealized woman but the fact is most women out there are not as perfect as the magazines and tv ads would have you believe. Women come in all shapes and sizes, we're no different.

Sarah

[Guest LizMarie]

Exactly, Sarah. We're not all going to be beauty queens as women just as not all guys are going to be the perfect hunk guy. It's very important to accept ourselves as much as we can.

For me, confidence has been self-reinforcing. Going to local TG support meetings, going shopping with a close friend, visiting en femme, have all helped. Having cisgender female friends who love me, support me, and constantly praise me has been liberating as well.

[Charlize]

Passing has just happened with time i think. At least not worrying. I laugh and chat and the smile seems to be the most important part of passing.

That is probably #3 on your list.

Now when i'm out on the street the clues i see that make me see male or female are hair, dress, size, and movement. Those assessments are the clues and often my mind is made up before i hear someone or see if they have a 12 o'clock shadow. I've certainly seen women who need a shave or talked like a guy and i knew they were women.

I don't know if i pass but i move through the world like i do and that alone puts a happy smile on my face.

Hugs,

Charlie

[Guest Amanda Whyte]

Kay, I completely agree with you. The only reason I even think about if I "pass" or not is outing any trans-person with me. By themselves they may pass but if seen in company of someone who doesnt then they get tagged. This bothers me. If by myself, I just dont want to look the fool.

[Carolyn Marie]

I only do well with about half of your items, LizMarie. I certainly don't have the figure or the face, and the voice is just so so. But I do have great self confidence, my mannerisms are pretty good (I think), I dress to fit in (even if these days its jeans and casual blouses most of the time), and my face is clear and smooth. It also doesn't hurt that I'm petite.

Honestly, I don't know how well I "pass." All I know is that I get treated as a woman, and if people clock me, they don't show it. I've said this before, but I deal with the public at a busy museum, talk to people from five years old to 85, and not once in six months has anyone said a doubtful word. I have no clue what people think, all I know is that they treat me the right way. I can't ask for anything more than that. Personally, I think its mostly confidence and a smile. Works wonders.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Guest]

Hi Liz,

There are two methods to "passing". The term has mostly been used to imply that a person's trans origin has been sufficiently hidden to avoid notice. The second method is as Kay implies - being a transperson who is accepted as their presented gender regardless.

I think I'm the second group - can avoid notice for moments, but obviously trans for any time longer than that. Yet, I've gone to work in a new job, spent three weeks in a training facility halfway across the country, and have never felt that anyone was bothered by who I am. And, for me, that's all I care about: whether accepted as a woman or a transwoman is immaterial as long as I am accepted.

So - what's important to me? I often think of the nostrum, "If it walks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, it is a duck." I do put effort into my mannerisms and my speech, attempting to filter the masculine and emphasize the feminine. I dress well, I try to appear clean and neat always. But, after several years, it's so much a part of me that I can't say what's important. I'm just being myself!

Back to your priority list - it's pretty accurate, I think. Yeah, there are possibly things I would take in a bit of a different order, but not worth a quibble for certain!

Love, Megan

[Guest -guest-]

I think the effort I put into effecting a more feminine presentation was, to a large degree, fulfillment of an obligation to the wonderful women who accepted me as a co-worker.

These were business offices, and I wasn't there to be a distraction or to draw attention.

[Guest LizMarie]

Carolyn, my point about curves and figure is that some of us obsess over what cisgender women often lack as well. You don't need the curves or figure at all. I have cisgender female friends who are overweight and aren't curvy and I have two who are thin enough (with minimal breasts) that unless viewed from the front, they report getting misgendered occasionally as well. One of them is 6 foot, a rancher, and manages horses. It's her hair, her face and voice that immediately otherwise cue people as to her gender. And she's a biological female.

Megan, I think you might be surprised. You've simply decided to be you and you said that you think anyone that looks for an extended period is going to see trans but I really doubt that. Women are so variant and trans women are so rare that most people probably don't even make that connection, particularly about older women like ourselves.

And finally that list is just my list and definitely not what others prioritize. That's why I asked, to see the diversity of opinion, to get feedback about why something matters to someone but not to someone else. I also created that list to try to show to newer members that the things we most often obsess about are often the least important things in passing socially as a woman.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

cis-gendered people get mis-gendered all the time. My grandma has been sired before, the problem is that we as transpeople are just far more sensitive to it. We just assuming it happens because we assume they think we're transgender.

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

For me, and this is all based on my personal experience, I would put facial hair as #1. Once I covered up the beard shadow, I was being called ma'am more frequently. After several sessions of laser where my beard shadow was nearly gone (minus a few spots) and I wasn't wearing makeup, I was being called ma'am and miss almost constantly. That, I think, was the most surprising change I noticed. Once the beard was gone, so were the male pronouns.

I would put confidence at #2. You can look the part, act the part, sound the part but if you don't believe in yourself, people are going to pick up that something just isn't right. But then again, I've always stressed the importance of confidence.

Overall appearance I would put as #3. It has to be age appropriate for people to accept you as one of the team. You can let it slide in more accepting areas but for the most part if you look like other women your age, you won't raise any red flags. Sure, one could make a case that you should be able to wear whatever you want, wherever you want but conformity goes a long way no matter where you live.

Voice, I guess, would come after that. I've been misgendered but only on the phone, never in person. Pitch and tone, at least in my case, haven't been as important for me as communication style, phrasing and word choice.

Tied for voice, I'd put mannerisms. You can't act like a dude and expect to be treated like a lady. Ladies get treated like a lady. That machismo attitude you may or may not have had back then won't fly now. Don't walk like John Wayne, don't sit with your legs spread apart and if someone holds the door open for you, don't nod your head and say "thanks, bro." Now I'm not saying go the exact opposite way and be super-ultra dainty, but it won't be held against you if you do.

7, 8 and 9 I would keep the same. You don't need big boobs to pass as female. You do need big boobs to make men drool and have them do things for you, but female prowess isn't covered until the advanced class. I think Sakura teaches that one.

[Guest LizMarie]

Ha! I agree three, Lizzie! Sakura definitely has that one down pat!

[Michelle 2010]

One thing that has really become apparent to me is that I consciously take up less space, whether it is standing in a check out line, sitting at a table, relaxing in a comfy chair...

I have also been practicing the "hip drop' described in TS Roadmap. Yoga has made the spine more flexible and the subtle "sashay" or hip swing produced by the hip drop comes more easily that would have been possible in the past.

When sitting, legs are usually crossed but if not, the knees, ankles and feet are never seperated by more than a few inches. Elbows are more likely in, hands lightly resting in lap (often touching or lightly holding each other)...

So far, I have not had issues with strangers verbaly clocking me. I really don't care any longer what people think as long as I don't have to listen to unkind thoughts or comments. Those comments are not materializing, at least yet.

I agree that we make other people comfortable being around us when we are comfortable being ourselves. How do we accomplish that? Go out and experience life.... we can't think our way into self confidence

Hugs

Michelle

[Sakura]

Female prowess isn't taught it is natural *flicks hair *

[Guest KarenLyn]

I'd like to add one to the list and you can place it where you like as they're all equally important depending on the situation.

My addition would be: Be yourself and stop worrying about what other people think.

My 2 ¢

K