Ok, Girls, Are You Learning?

[Guest Donna Jean]

Well, girls....

Having spent some time in a male body (YUCK) and now working on getting things corrected..

I am learning girl things ...some with the help of my wife, some through experiencing them myself, some through observation. I'll show you what I mean.....

When taking a top off over your head, make sure to hold the neck hole open far enough so as not to rip your ear rings out! OWwwww (experience)

When sitting in a long skirt and standing up, make sure you don't step on the bottom and send your face into the wall. (experience)

Mascara is WAY easier to put on than take off. (experience)

Going to the store now takes at least double the time that it took before...there's SO much nice stuff. (experience)

Girls jeans sizes don't work like guy's sizes...a size 10 by one company may be WAY different than a size 10 from another company! (experience)

Walking into work wearing ear rings that you forgot to take off because you are not out yet. (observation)

Painted toe nails are pretty, but, they take maintenance! There's a lot of work there! (experience)

The clasp on a necklace will NOT stay behind your head no matter what! It will move down towards the bottom and there's nothing you can do about it short of putting a thumb tack in it and that's kinda severe. (experience)

After applying lipstick, smack your lips on a piece of tissue to get off the excess and

"SET" the color (wife)

When putting ear rings on over the bathroom sink looking in the mirror, put the stopper in the sink first....if you don't, you may have to revert to some male type plumbing skills...(Observation)

See? What did I tell ya? There's a LOT to learn!

So, lets have it..what are YOU learning?

***HUGGS***

Donna Jean

[Guest TBForLife]

Advice from a Transgender boy turned drag queen:

When your pantyhose start to run use clear nail polish- Keep in purse at ALL TIMES.

When wearing pointed heels like stilettos buy them a size larger and stuff the toes with something soft like cotton from a pillow.

When you can't seem to get the hairline to fill out no matter how long you grow it, extensions!

You can buy real human hair for $30 a bag and glue it in yourself for $5 more if you are brave, I do it all the time!

The less makeup the better. Using neutral tones and then drawing a line from the center of the top lid to the outside corner of the eye in a color that compliments is enough to make a huge impact on every day makeup. Blending is key.

Never underestimate the power of the power suit. Women use this all the time to show they are large and in charge in the office so use it ladies.

The reason this works amazingly for mtfs is that lots of girls have broad shoulders, now these jackets often come with shoulder pads in them. Rip them out, wear the jacket. No one will know you have broad shoulders because you're wearing a power suit that looks great on you.

Womens clothes are DESIGNED TO MAKE YOU FEEL FAT.

Don't fall for it. OR read the sizes. Just put it up to yourself, walk into the change room and try it on.

They make a size 0 and call size 8 and up plus sized. Yea right.

My friend fits a 28 and takes a size 0. When's the last time anyone fit into a size 28? 14 years old?

Never cook in your nice clothes, "nice" usually means synthetic fibers unlike a cotton T and trust me you don't want to know what it feels like to get bacon grease on a synthetic top, anything that burns will stick to your skin, this includes pantyhose, if you get on your boyfriends motorcycle (experience) and touch the header pipe the nylon WILL MELT into your skin. Cigarette burns are terrible too. Remember that clear nail polish!

Most synthetics are flammable and melt to the skin if burned.

Don't ever cut across the grass in heels unless they are thick or chunky. They go Right In like tent pegs.

When sitting in the ladies room ALWAYS make sure nothings hanging down into the toilet. Be it a wrap, a sash or skirt, and it's real easy to miss and get your pantyhose.

Thats some awesome advice so I just had to add a few things that you don't ever want to learn from experience.

[Sally]

I suddenly realized that I have learned nothing!

Do remember when getting in your car sit down and pull your legs in togehter - this is especially important if you are wearing a skirt! The same applies for getting out! (Experience on a windy day in Texas)

If you are wearing a pendant, check where your seat belt goes and adjust it so they don't touch each other. (Experience I released the seat belt and it grabbed my necklace by the pendant and almost chocked me!)

Alway s keep one hand emoty to hold your skirt down in the wind. (Experience)

If you are grossly overweight, like moi, never wear tight fitting spandex outer wear, use the industrial strength underneath loose and flowing clothes. (Observation - shudders)

If you are 6' 4" or taller - do not wear 5: heels - doorways are only 6'8". (Observation)

Unless you are drop dead gorgeous do nit wear the brightest colors or biggest prints, solids and muted tones draw less attentiion and look very nice, small prints are good too, something delicate. (Observation)

Along with your voice, work on coughing and sneezing - a big boomer will draw attention to you. (Observation)

Well maybe I have learned something,

Sally

[Guest Irielle]

Wow, you ladies and gents sure know a lot! Someone should make some kind of permanent post topic thing somewhere so all these things can be listed and not get lost. One for the ladies and one for the gentlemen.

As we each learn something from *ahem* experience and think it might help others we can add it to the list.

I'll start! How about this - I learned this one the hard way, from experience - "Toes go in first".

[Guest Ashlee]

Ok, my turn!

Formal wear sizes are completely different than regular sizes. I usually wear a size 14 dress, this becomes a 16 or 18 in formal wear (experience)

TB is right, clear nail polish is your friend when wearing pantyhose (experience)

Another turn on taking off tops - instead of grabbing the collar first, cross your arms in front and grab the bottom left side with your right hand, the bottom right side with your left. Then pull the top up and over your head. It takes a bit of practice, but it works! (experience and observation)

I found out recently that I don't HAVE to wear a dress or skirt to feel pretty. I have a wonderful pair of those "flare" leg slacks that are plenty long and look awesome with a pair of heels! (observation and experience)

Neutral tones are my friend when going out shopping (experience)

However...

I can go out in just about anything to go shopping as long as I am feeling comfident and hold my head up high. (experience)

The salespeople in the womens departments are usually very nice people and will usually help in any way they can. (experience)

This is fun!

Ashlee

[Guest Irielle]

Whee! I can add to Ashley's tip on taking off your top. Do it her way until you get your top up to your neck. Then change your hand position. Put your left hand on the left side and right hand on the right side. Bunch up the sides of your top in each hand and then stretch the neck opening before pulling your top up over your head. You won't catch your earrings or ruin your hair.

[Guest Kelly Ann]

TBFL...I kneel at you feet...that is soooo good. Donna Jean went and spilled a bunch...LOL...is there anything that can stop uncontrollable giggling???HELP!!!! Hmmmm...er...make sure that your thong is put on correctly(?) nah...er, make that...try not to mix more than 5 colors when wearing jewelry. HHHHmmMMMmmmm...not quite right either...how about...

1) If you HAVE to wear stockings...wear a skirt long enough to cover the tops, or pants of some sort...whatever

2) Take care of your hair...leave the 'gunk' out of it

3) Smile at least 4 times more than you 'think' is normal...just trust me here on THIS

4) SEE no Evil...HEAR no Evil...SPEAK no Evil

5) Treat others as you would like to be treated...even if it hurts to do so, be better than ANYone else if only because you are, better

6) Find a place that no one can invade...in this place YOU ARE invincible

7) Cut the video games by some percentage...go figure...I would if I had any video games...

8) Take the wildest...most OUT THERE...idea and write it out...you'll remember it then...it's cool, again just trust me here

9) Breathe in and remember ALL of the friends you've ever known...breathe out and remember those that have passed on, kiss 'em all

10) Tell somebody you Love them and...hug someone if they're close enough...yourself if that's you...listen to a heartbeat

Kelly Ann

[Guest Little Sara]

Mascara is WAY easier to put on than take off. (experience)

You have to take it off? I just sleep with it, the next day, I got none. Just do the laundry (and it doesn't even show on my pillows either), don't expect real big black stains or anything. (experience)

I never remove make-up. Though I also don't use eyeliner or eyeshadow, which would probably need to be removed. Lipgloss and lipstick wear themselves out, even if wetproof. (experience)

Nail polish needs to be removed by about ~1 week, or it will chip and look pretty tacky, it removes itself unevenly. (experience)

I agree about formal wear being different from casual wear. I wear size 0 normally, but couldn't fit less than a size 4 formal dress. Lolita fashion is considered formal wear (well, it IS based on Victorian-era clothing, which, by our standards, is very formal for everyday wear). (experience)

Shoe sizes for men have vanity sizes. Much like a woman who's "really" a size 8 can fit into clothes labeled size 6 without stretching it - men who wear size 10 men's shoes, could wear size 8 women's shoes, even if it's equivalent to size 11 in women's. Basically, the size on the men's shoes is bigger than the shoes. And women's clothes sizes are smaller than the clothes. (experience)

People may have noticed, very clearly, that you had female mannerism (body language) beforehand, but not said anything to not hurt your feelings. It's typically the "Ah, it's not such a big surprise" people when you come out or go full-time. (experience)

Cycling hormones can give PMS-like symptoms (observation)

Progesterone is often ignored or neglected in breast development of MtFs although its considered NECESSARY in a girl's puberty to achieve breast maturity. (observation)

Libido may not be entirely tied to hormone levels, wether testosterone or otherwise. (experience)

The BDSM community is overall more accepting of gender-variance and trans people than society at large. Cross-dressing and forced feminization are two categories of BDSM 'like' (that some people say they like). (observation)

The DSM got it wrong with regards to transsexual people transitioning for gender role reasons. (observation)

Therapists who are comprehensive and not outright asshats are very hard to find, especially when it comes to anything regarding trans (and not just in the US either). (observation, experience)

Hair let loose looks more feminine. So does bangs. (observation, experience)

Bad hair with very long hair "doesn't exist" (it might not look gorgeous, but you don't have hair standing up, its own weight makes it all go down). (experience)

Geekyness (liking videogames, anime, electronics, computers) seems to be common amongst trans people. (observation)

Going without make-up is acceptable if you don't have a 5 O'clock shadow. It also looks sort of cute and younger. So does very light make-up. (observation)

If you make something like no big deal, routine, or feel entitled to having no one react by making them seem like they're overreacting, you can get away with almost anything. You can buy very girly hair accessories as a manly-looking guy, in male clothes. You can buy tampons, or condoms. You can buy adult diapers. You can buy anything from a store - the fact is, the clerks don't even care, if you don't make a big deal of it, they won't have a reason to care either. Calm and confidence is key to passing and blending in. (experience)

[Guest Kelly Ann]

Hi Sara...have a heart shaped snicker doodle...I'm headed to Sally's...if I can find her place, the fog is settling on Florida...10 is a loooong way to Texas. You have most excellent observations...generally I just build up my mascara too. Kelly Ann

[Guest Elizabeth K]

FUN TOPIC

Well so much has been said - let me see.

Lip gloss - the new stuff in a tube - applies in a very different color than it appears when you buy it (lighter) so it is okay to buy what looks much darker

Foundation comes in many forms - but the new mineral type lasts a longer time and is easier to apply (and costs a fortune)

Ditto on concealer - and when tryin to find a shade to match you skin tones - have an experienced person help you

When buying concealer and foundation remember that you will use it in full daylight most of the time so look at it in sunlight rather than store lights.

You may have to buy two shades - one if you are mainly outside, one if inside (especially at night)

Buy GOOD cosmetics - they are worth it. Lip color ranges are influenced by fads - don't buy fad colors that don't work on you

The reds in lip color are hard to make work - usually lighter shades but not pink are better -or - the darker tones with brown work

Put on lipstick - THEN use the liner pencil - saves a lot of time - always blot - if you crossdress and are in the closet - flush the blot tissues

ALWAYS carry extra tissues in your purse

Sometimes a chap-stick is better than lip collor - and then wipe and apply color

Lipstick sorta melts in your purse in the summer or even in cool weather in a car - the better brands are more resistant

Going to bed with lipstick on will get funny red smears on the pillows and comforters - and they WONT COME OFF

Mascara disappears after a while on your lashes - nobody knows where it goes?

When using mascara - lightly wipe off the excess in the brush either at the top of the tube or on a tissue - this help prevent clodding

Use make-up brushes from a good set - rather than the brushes provided in the cases - for better results.

If you use a big brush to apply foundation evenly - it usually fills up real well after a while - and you can do a quick touch up just using the brush

NEVER store brushes at home any way but brush end up - never flat - in a little cup or vase if possible

When you buy a new foundation, buy a new brush - except for those nifty big ones - throw the old one out

Cosmetics have a shelf life - also throw out old stuff you don't use after a while - the less stuff in you kit the easier it is to find and use

Keep your selection of eyebrow colors limited- after you find the shade that looks best on you

NEVER share cosmetics

Some can keep on make-up for a long time - but it is best to keep it on only when awake - allowing your skin to recover overnight

Proper facial skin care is MORE IMPORTANT than the proper application of make-up

You should be spending at least 30 minutes a night with facial skin care

Skin care product selection is tricky - and can be pricy - so ask for samples (Soporia does that) and find what works

Always watch the moisture in your face - it can change with the weather or with your habits of staying inside or outside

The area around the eyes is number one with facial skin care (dryness, redness and puffyness) - the cheek area is second

Always remember to moisturize the forehead and under the chin

Mosturizing regime can also include hands, nails and arms. Also remember the neck and breast area

Legs moisturized daily tend to make shaving or depilation easier

Use of sented moisturizer at night will make your sheets and pillows smell good

Estrogen will make you smell like a woman - so you will have to reevauate your perfumes, colognes and powders

Estrogen will also change the way pets and children react to your body scent

If you get a HRT regime set up - make certain to take an adequate supply when you travel - including a few days extra in the event of a schedule change

you WILL spill some of your pills down the sink hole - so make it a habit to keep it closed

Pills disappear somehow - so be careful that you can make the prescription time

Progesterone has taken a bad rap - talk to your prescribing physician - they work super for me

Herbals are not efficient - and can give false readings on your blood tests

HRT is real - it is a huge step in starting transition

Natal women are often on HR - not HRT - the theapy part does not apply to natal womem - but HRT and HT carry about the same risks for women's diseases

Nail polish stays fresh longer when refrigerated

Throw out nail polish after about three months - fresh polish applies better

ALWAYS buy expensive nail polish OPI is my recommendation - it won't chip - the color selection is super

Buying nail color at a solon? You will pick it out - they will never have it

Use a clear primer coat or filler first - it will keep dark colors from staining your nails

AWAYS allow at least one hour drying between coats if you can - it will give profesional results

NEVER do anything for at least 15 minutes when drying

If you over run your cuticles slightly that is okay - a day later after the polish is set, you can peel off the over run - trying to repair immediately won't work

Use pretty colors, but match your skin tones - you can apply a darker coat over a lighter but not the other way

Never let your nail color stay on over two weeks - remove and reapply

And when you break a nail? super glue works sometimes - but lasts only a day or two so you need to get home and file it down or get a solon to fix it

Salon nails are very difficult to remove on your own

Acrylic nails are terrible - and overuse incourages fungus growth

Trimming your toenails regularly is recommended - natal women rarely keep toenails long in length

Red is DJs favorite and is considered verrrry much on the evil side

And Topics like this go on forever

Women watch other women - and dress for other women and themselves - men are incidental

A well dressed T-woman passes best - probably because we carry ourselves with pride

It seems a natal woman will defend a T-woman she considers her equal in style and grace

Prepub teen girls are ALWAYS the ones to notice - they can see things we don't realize we are doing differently as they are students of femininity

So that's enough - grin

[Guest Felicia Anne]

(writing down on a tablet furiously, sweat pouring as i try to remember all of these...)

[Guest TBForLife]

Haha I have a few more in that respect.

Mary Jane style Heels + Capris = hotter than a tight skirt on the right girl

DO take off your makeup, I have skin peeling off my eyelids right now from falling asleep in drag!

Gold with Gold - Unless you are wearing tricolor gold which is really classy then you can get away with tri color+ white gold.

Never wear too many rings or necklaces. Pick signature matching pieces that compliment your dress.

Dressing Casual is always hot in it's own way. You can look great in a pair of levis and a t shirt.

(I have a black tight foot ball jersy that has a big neon pink 12 on it for the younger girls)

Flowers are not feminine, they can get tacky. Very tacky.

I had a MTF gf last year who wore this ugly t shirt with pretty flowers on it and NO. Stick with the trends, just because it's floral does not make it cute.

Same goes for prints and cutesy stuff, it's ok while you're pulling weeds in the garden to have that sweater with the kitty cats on it. But don't leave the yard.

Tight on the middle, loose on the bust shows off figure. There are lots of tops out there that can do this.

BIO GIRLS WOULD KILL FOR YOUR BEHIND. Flaunt It Girl!

In all my experience people born male at a healthy weight have nicer behinds than most girls could ever dream of having. Put on the hotpants and the high heels lady you own the world.

Nice nails are better than long nails.

Keeping good care of your nails and having them kept nicely rounded even if not wearing nailpolish is very attractive because it shows you are clean and take good care of yourself.

Lipgloss over lipstick. Most occasions do not call for lipstick. Heading to the grocery store, put on a little gloss and toss it in your pocket with your keys.

My FAVORITE makeup is shimmer.

Using a light gold shimmer on the skin instead of blush can tone down for a casual look or a little more and you're stunning for the night scene.

And Finaly!

My guide to BIG eyes.

This is the kind of makeup I wear when I do DRAG. So this fierce and right out there. Not every day wear (unless youre me)

Start with white. Or the lightest color you'll be applying. Start from the eyelid and bring it right up to the brow (I have no eyebrows so the sky is the limit)

Apply your second lightest color so that it just leaves a little white and trails off to the outside edge of the eyes past the white just a little.

Apply your main color just to the eyelid and go over the secondary color with a little bold styling.

Finally get artistic with liner. I use black for goth or silver. Red is a bad choice makes you look like you got punched out or have pinkeye.

At this time I also apply my eyebrows.

Get that thin lip on the bottom inside the eye, I paint on my eyelashes with liners in silver and do silver art around the colored area.

I also apply a bit of my secondary and main color just in the inside corner of the eye over the liner. The liner on the top starts at the middle of the eye and tails to an artistic design at the outside end of the eye meeting with the bottom liner or if I go full top I make sure to join it all the way around and artistic tails on the inside of the eye.

Add artwork all around get creative but don't go too crazy unless you're in costume!

OH BIG TIP

DONT BLINK WHEN YOU USE LIQUID LINER ON THE TOPS OF YOUR EYES!

[Guest Jackson]

Holy cow. Even I didn't know some of this stuff before I started with my change.

I thought I might be able to add something, but I don't think I can. Oh, wait...

I've said this before, confidence is the key. It's sexy. When I was with my ex-girlfriend, it was the hottest thing to me that she appeared confident. Even when I found out afterward that she wasn't feeling confident. She looked like she knew she was sexy and that was all it took.

[Guest Donna Jean]

LOL...

Sweethearts.....

The Mascara brush is NOT as large as it looks coming towards your eye!

Don't blink!

Donna Jean

[Guest Zabrak]

I like confidence too but I also like boys or girls who let me protect them, that want me to be their 'hero'. To support and watch over them. I'm just that type of guy.

[Guest Little Sara]

Same goes for prints and cutesy stuff, it's ok while you're pulling weeds in the garden to have that sweater with the kitty cats on it. But don't leave the yard.

But, but, I like this dress:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a213/Sar...al/Photo056.jpg

It has prints on the skirt. But its MADE to be cute. And yeah, it'll draw attention, that's sort of a duh. I don't mind the attention much, when not alone. I'm very self-conscious when alone.

I wish I had a better shot of it...I've bought it late in the year, so I haven't had the chance to wear it in decent temperatures yet (hence the leg warmers, and cotton tights). The pigtails were for lack of my headdress, and well, for Halloween. I don't typically put my hair in pigtails...and it hurts at this length (pulls an awful lot).

But yeah, I'd wear it casually, like to go to a restaurant, or for a date.

[Sally]

Oh this is so hard, I think I'll just go for the Lumberjack Look!

[Guest Emily1]

But, but, I like this dress:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a213/Sar...al/Photo056.jpg

It has prints on the skirt. But its MADE to be cute. And yeah, it'll draw attention, that's sort of a duh. I don't mind the attention much, when not alone. I'm very self-conscious when alone.

I wish I had a better shot of it...I've bought it late in the year, so I haven't had the chance to wear it in decent temperatures yet (hence the leg warmers, and cotton tights). The pigtails were for lack of my headdress, and well, for Halloween. I don't typically put my hair in pigtails...and it hurts at this length (pulls an awful lot).

But yeah, I'd wear it casually, like to go to a restaurant, or for a date.

OMG wow, at first, I could have SWORN that was a gg in the pic. nice job!!!

I'll bet at least part of that is that I recognize people by their hair, so I saw your hair first, and that definitely like a girl's

-Emily

[Guest Little Sara]

I'll bet at least part of that is that I recognize people by their hair, so I saw your hair first, and that definitely like a girl's

Before I transitioned and was even out to anyone, in 2004 (I learned trans even existed in 2005), my father's girlfriend said I had "a girl's dream hair". I had 30-36 inch long hair. That's about my length now too. She was talking of the texture (wavy) and the thickness etc.

Just wait til I get a more decent shot. This shot wasn't bad...for the dress, but it's far from putting me in a nice light.

This picture is better, though not perfect:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a213/Sar...l5th2008007.jpg

It's similar to my profile pic (taken at the same time).

This is a picture in 2005, (a year pre-transition) pre-transition, of my hair:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a213/Sar...al/IMG_0738.jpg

I had remnants of a black dye in it (I didn't redye it). On my current hair the full darker part is gone (all cut-off in mid-2006).

[Guest Emily1]

how old are you? my parents wouldnt let me grow out my hair till i was in high school but by now, it goes a little past my shoulders I wish I had your length

-Emily

[Sally]

Having given further thought to what I have learned and seeing the images posted,

"I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK" From Python's Flying Circus, Monty LTD. and just under the limit for how much af a song you can quote without ASCAP getting upset and this is none of thier business anyway because this one was published through BMI! )

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Little Sara]

how old are you? my parents wouldnt let me grow out my hair till i was in high school but by now, it goes a little past my shoulders I wish I had your length

-Emily

I'm 26, I started growing my hair at around 18. In the pics I'm 22½ (2005), 25 (the pink top one) and 26 (2008 with the pink dress). I lived with my parents then too, but they didn't interfere except suggesting it (sometimes strongly) that I cut my hair.

In high school, I had my hair about chin length. People said I had "a mop" of hair.

[Guest Christy.dancer]

Hmmm..... things I've learned.... in no particular order (or attempt at completeness!)

At FIRST, wearing lipgloss means you're CONSTANTLY aware you're wearing lip gloss. You do a lot of things differently (like drinking coffee). Eventually, it all gets more natural.

Ditto what everyone said about girls clothes sizes

If you wear girl jeans and a girl's top, you are GOING to get a belly gap. Learn to embrace it.

Girls shirts button in the opposite direction. THAT took some getting used to.

Tights under jeans are w-a-a-a-a-y warmer.

When you walk in heels, clench your butt.

The complexity of dealing with long hair.... wow... no one told me about THAT

Satin sleep wear -- I wish someone would have told me about THAT earlier!!!

Good thing painting your toes is fun -- you have to do it nearly every day

Hugging a guy feels really cool when you're wearing a bra. Seriously. Very different feeling.

That's all for now. It's early morning. I'm sure I'll think of something else later.

[Guest Emily1]

I'm 26, I started growing my hair at around 18. In the pics I'm 22½ (2005), 25 (the pink top one) and 26 (2008 with the pink dress). I lived with my parents then too, but they didn't interfere except suggesting it (sometimes strongly) that I cut my hair.

In high school, I had my hair about chin length. People said I had "a mop" of hair.

you look very young then I would have guessed that you were maybe halfway through college, so I was very surprised at the length. As it is, I am rather surprised (and jealous) cause one of them was after 4 years of growing out, and I have been growing my hair out for four years, and it's nowhere near that length

-Emily

[Guest DeniseNM]

Okay here is a few things I have learned

TBFL is right about heels and grass right in like a tent peg but if you have to walk on the grass remember to keep all the pressure as you are walking on the ball of you foot and none on the heel (experience)

Also with shoes ladies if you wear a wide shoe in men's (like me EE) then look for wide in ladies, much more comfortable (experience)

Nail polish when applying start at the center of the nail and work towards the sides, goes on smoother (experience)

alson start by applying to your dominant hand first (i.e. if you are right handed then put it on your right hand first), for some reason it just goes smoother and less chance of messing up your nails that way (experience)

With clothes and anything really the best thing you can put on is the right attitude with confidence and a smile. The attitude that you are a woman and deserve to be treated with respect works wonders and a smile just makes you look pretty (observation and experience)

Also with jeans remember ladies that our jeans now are more fitted and snug than the men's jeans we wore before so watch about how you bend over or squat down because seams will pop (experience)

just a few things I learned and I love this thread Donna Jean, great idea ... it definately helps us all learn something

Denise