As God Made Us

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Its not my intent to be starting anything controversial here, so I ask that all replies are within the rules and guidelines set forth by Laura in the pinned topics in the Sprituality Rules Forum Heading. And this may lean a little bit toward venting for me. I found this statement by one of our esteemed leaders here as I was reading through some very old TOPICS

On the often voiced attack, 'Why can't we gender dysphoric accept ourselves as God made us?' - the reply was:

Bigots often quote the Bible to justify things of this nature. You're right ... Jesus preached love, not condemnation

That hits home for me. There has been a tremendous amount of discussion on this type of attack. We at Laura's have been giving serious replies in the forum - we have been giving humerous replies in the forum.

BUT

How does each one of us defend against it personally - I mean what do each of you say? I know what I do, but it is a personal thing, I want to know how others respond?

I never know where these things go, but I would REALLY like to see serious answers. And if you are not spiritural, I want to know about what you would say as well. And if you do not have a religious direction toward Bible based Christianity, such as many of the buddism practitioners here, Taoists, or those embracing paganisn, I especially would like to hear what you would do when asked, 'Why can't we gender dysphoric accept ourselves as God made us?'

EVERYONE of us gets asked this very question eventually - it's almost a 'right of passage' and you aren't really part of the community until you have had to defend against it.

Trouble maker

Lizzy

[Guest skyy]

this hits home very much for me too. gender seems on the surface to be a painfully irrelevent thing, yet the rift of body and soul tears me apart in such anguish that it cant be explained in mere words. this question has troubled me because i'm not sure what the sorce is. i know the reality, but i dont know the 'why'. my only guess is that it lies in some basic fundemental way our brain processes infomation. even though it is subtle, a transgendered person can not make their brain work on the deepest level, and so, nothing they can construct can last or bring fulfillment. that is what it is for me, but i hardly know other's story, so for the big whole, i'm clueless. i'll be tracking this topic, because some people on this site are very smart, and i'd love to see what they think.

[Sally]

No one remains 'as God made us' because to do so one would have to stop growing and changing from the moment that life officially begins and I'm not going to debate when that is.

Life itself is a process of evolution and we grow according to a plan or a map - DNA holds the keys, but it seems for some of us the map has a bad fold and is hard to read so some develop club feet, cleft palates or transgendered.

We find as a society in general that correcting club feet and cleft palates is just fine, however correcting transgendered is a sin and an abomination.

We don't ask everyone who dyes their hair, "Why don't you stay as God made you?"

We don't ask men who take HGH or Steroids, "Why don't you stay as God made you?"

We don't ask people with tattoos, piercings or breast implants, "Why don't you stay as God made you?"

That question has been reserved for us, why?

Because most people can see a club foot and know that if it were on the end of their leg, they would fix it.

Most people can not comprehend the plight of the transgendered and rather than take their minds out for a little intellectual and compassionate stroll they simply turn away and grab the book of all answers, THE HOLY BIBLE!

The problem is that while they are busy looking up the answers, they have never learned what the questions really are.

To me the BIBLE shows us the way - Jesus never failed to help someone because they were different.

We should treat people the same way - I have a lot of things in life that I do not understand, but rather than judging and telling them that they are wrong, I try to understand and give them room to live the way that they feel is right for them.

That is all I ask of anyone.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Zabrak]

I was asked this question by a family member and still get "so are you feeling any better because of doing this or will you accept that god made you this way?"

Online I'm wordy, in real life I say nothing. I look at them and either leave or change the subject. I refuse to be bullied into a conversation that makes me uncomfortable. They just brought it up because they make ideals into something selfish and hateful and think their being helpful and insightful.

I have often been called the strong and silent type. It drives my family crazy because I wont be persuaded into anything.

<--- Is also called cold and heartless in real life. Which isn't true but I guess I just rub people the wrong way.

[Guest michelle.butterfly]

On the often voiced attack, 'Why can't we gender dysphoric accept ourselves as God made us?' - the reply was:

How does each one of us defend against it personally - I mean what do each of you say? I know what I do, but it is a personal thing, I want to know how others respond?

I was raised Southern Baptist and have spent a lot of time thinking about this question although never been asked directly.

I guess I would bring up some examples; what about someone with a cleft palate? spina bifida? Should we just accept the way God made us if we have these physical issues? Or, what about if we get cancer should we just let that grow because God gave it to us?

But how about this: I do accept the way God made me and I am taking the steps He has provided for me that allow me to bring the mind/brain he gave me into congruence with my body. I have spent a lot of time looking at the evidence that God has given me, and I'm certain this is the path He intended for me; it is not for you to judge whether or not I am correct, that is reserved for God. Please worry about your own path.

With much love,

Michelle

[Guest April63]

I don't have an answer to this question. I mean, I can't think of any. I guess the only thing I can really say is, I just want to be a girl. There's nothing wrong with my male body, I just want to be a girl. I want that feminine look. The feel. The being. The essence. Why? Who knows.

April

[Guest Christy.dancer]

Well, God made everything, right? And we (humans) have never ceased to screw with just about everything we touch. The food you're eating? It's the result of centuries of hybrids, breeding, and cloning. God NEVER made a seedless watermelon, yet I ate some for breakfast. (For that matter, God didn't make Granola, and I had some of THAT yesterday). You think for one minute God made rayon? Polyester? Wash-n-wear ANYTHING?

By the way, did you ride in an automobile today? Or any form of transportation that required refined fossil fuel?

I'm going to the dentist next week. By this logic, I should skip that, and just let God's little cavities take over my mouth.

Which begs the question... how 'bout dem vaccinations? Eh?

Anyone's Aunt Susie ever had a hip replacement? HUH?????

GGRRRRRRR..............................

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I don't have an answer to this question. I mean, I can't think of any. I guess the only thing I can really say is, I just want to be a girl. There's nothing wrong with my male body, I just want to be a girl. I want that feminine look. The feel. The being. The essence. Why? Who knows.

April

That works!

[Guest]

On the often voiced attack, 'Why can't we gender dysphoric accept ourselves as God made us?'

People who say this assume that God doesn't make mistakes and that everyone is born perfect. The facts are that many are born with minor and major birth defects (Down's Syndrome) or genetic links predisposed to disease and illness through the gene pool. It's in the genes and the system is far from perfect. Some defects are natural anomolies that effect one in every so many thousand births which explains us. Breast cancer, Schizophrenia, diabetes, and many others can run in families through our DNA. Is this God's fault? Of course not. It's also arrogant to assume that God took the time to pick on us personally and inflict pain and suffering on us. Certainly God's to do list is too full to pick on one person. He's way to busy. Genetics and the luck of the draw are a fact of life. Stuff Happens . Fortunately He made us smart enough to deal with it.

The good news is that there are specific treatments for all of these things. So if you think about it he gave us the tools to correct things that are wrong. Treatment of Transgender people is covered by the Wpath Standards of care which are supported by the AMA and both APA's. SO what makes more sense to follow a bible verse from hundreds of years ago not written about us specifically or to follow our Doctors who are experts? Maybe God made the birth process itself. However the only two people who were in the room when I was conceived was my Mom and dad.

Laura

[Guest April63]

I think what people mean when they ask the questions is, why aren't you happy with your body. It's not that they believe God doesn't make mistakes (I believe He doesn't by the way), or that everyone is made perfect. It is that they believe an MTF person to truly be a male wanting to be female, not a female in a male's body.

April

[Guest Kelly Ann]

HMmmm Liz...actually I like the way God started out with me...and going forward, who knows? I'll always be me...goofy and giggling and grinning down a bear I think we are put here and are but a blank slate that is always a work in progress...it's up to the individual to come to terms with what they wish for...nobody else with do it actually. The Blue Fairy only helped a little wooden boy with a nose that grew when he lied. Big hug, Kelly Ann

[Guest Madison_Always]

Adam and Eve were created w/ perfect genes the more creation develops the less perfect our genes become. Throw in sin and genetic issues abound, at least thats how i see it I'm sure God didnt want us all to be born into these trials but God wants us to rely on Him and sometimes no matter what we have just got give our issues to Him and let Him work life out

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Let me start my saying the POINT of the topic was WHAT DO YOU SAY when someone says "Why are you not happy as God made you?".

I personally believe in a Creator, which is God the Father, Goddess the Mother, and the unknowable GODHEAD. I term the Creator 'GOD' in my postings to keep from getting into controversy. I am a combination Methodist-Wiccan-Catholic. My soul is a piece of GOD, so I am DEVINE in the sense of being a part of CREATION.

My reply would be:

GOD made me transsexual. I have studied my entire life to find a meaning in that and am still questioning why. BUT I personally asked GOD for resolution and he has led me to transition. To deny my right to transition is to deny GOD's will.

And it happened that way - a DEVINE introvention of supernatural nature I can never reveal because there are no words. And it involved me speaking directly with the Creator.

The intent for the posting? What kind of power is everyone using against the prejudice? What is everyone using for resolving the battle with that insane question, why aren't you happy as God made you? An I don't know if it is a Christian thing or not, but so often the Bible is quoted by those speakers. Their intent is to condemn us. I also feel strongly it makes them feel morally superior. It's horrible how a person THINKS he is Christian and yet can deny Jesus's commands to love others.

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I got the "why can't you just accept your body the way God made you" question right off the bad, during my TG infancy. I was maybe only a couple of weeks old. I didn't have an answer.

I don't have a good one now. Since I don't consider myself religious, it isn't a huge concern. However, I wish I had a decent answer for my mom. I think it would make her feel better.

My feelings are very strong on this issue. Gender identity and sexual orientation are not moral choices, they are something you are born with. I've been attracted to women and identified with being male since I can remember...long before I had the capacity for moral choice. This is something I have explained to people over and over. My present view is that I don't see any way people can condemn SRS without also condemning any kind of surgery or medical treatment.

Now, there are some verses in the New Testament that pretty clearly speak out against homosexuality. I don't know what to say about those. I've got no answers.

[Sally]

Now, there are some verses in the New Testament that pretty clearly speak out against homosexuality. I don't know what to say about those. I've got no answers.

I always remind myself that the Bible was mostly written by people years later with a few exceptions. And all of the books have been reviewed and revised by various councils as well as having bee traslated so many times - each translationcauses different problems. It doesn't sit well with a lot of Christians but I ama Christian by belief and by deeds so I can not judge anyone else and I don't think that I really need to listen to those who want to condem me. Jesus even spared an adulteress - the "let he amoung you who is without sin caste the first stone." story and that is forbidden in the Ten Commandments - his point is that we are not the judges, he also forgave the robbers that were crusified with him - I can't believe that we are just supposed to do nothing, that is why we have brains in the first place, whether in the right or wrong body.

And the Catholic Church is totally against the priests being married and yet the pope is supposed to be the spiritual desendent of Saint Peter, appointed 'head of the Apostles by Jesus saying, "You are the rock on which I will build my Father's Church", but after Jesus's death the Apostiles met in the house of Peter's mother-in-law? Religon always seems to have more questions than answers but it is faith and hope that helps as to go on.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Evalyn]

Well, God made everything, right? And we (humans) have never ceased to screw with just about everything we touch. The food you're eating? It's the result of centuries of hybrids, breeding, and cloning. God NEVER made a seedless watermelon, yet I ate some for breakfast. (For that matter, God didn't make Granola, and I had some of THAT yesterday). You think for one minute God made rayon? Polyester? Wash-n-wear ANYTHING?

By the way, did you ride in an automobile today? Or any form of transportation that required refined fossil fuel?

I'm going to the dentist next week. By this logic, I should skip that, and just let God's little cavities take over my mouth.

Which begs the question... how 'bout dem vaccinations? Eh?

Anyone's Aunt Susie ever had a hip replacement? HUH?????

GGRRRRRRR..............................

So I'm going through the responses, trying to think of how to articulate myself...when I get to this one.

<3

You've made my day. And confused the hell out of my brother, who's trying to figure out why I'm giggling like mad.

Just for the sake of silliness, though: if you really want to flabbergast a faith-flouter, I'd suggest googling "Mackie" and "Problem of Evil."

[Guest mia 1]

I am not not nor have ever been in the belief that their is perfection in anything other than mathematical formulas...God exists as we want her/him to exist in our imperfect minds and imaginations...sucumbing to the fact and worshiping a supreme deity is fine and wonderful but our small human brains match our small human, soon to be discarded bodies into the trash bin of history..Enjoy life enjoy yourself and transition into the realm of gender transitioning as far as you feel comfortable to do..

I suggest people re read Greek/roman, Norse and Persian mythology again and get confirmation on gender transitioning from their POV. It is an accepted and honored action..... We should all be proud of who we are and who we are becoming,,,we are a beautiful community and don't need confirmation from a higher spiritual source to proceed...

Just my thoughts and am showing no disrespect for others beliefs... Love to you all....Mia

[Guest S. Chrissie]

Let me start my saying the POINT of the topic was WHAT DO YOU SAY when someone says "Why are you not happy as God made you?".

I did casually asked what a Christian friend of mine think about "legalizing SRS". (It's a controversial issue here) Her reply was that it should be illegalize because "God made you this way, God has plans for your". Which made me realise how humans tend to focus on the tangible, the seable, the touchable aspect of Life. Your physical body, the parts you have are tangible, so therefore, it is absolute. Your mind, your viewpoints, your ideas cannot be seen, only heard through your words. Therefore, it is not absolute, and can be molded, what your brain is is irrelevant, your brain must fit the body. That's what I learnt from her reply.

Anyway, in the past, my argument or reply to the question would be

"So does that mean that God prefers us to change our mind and soul to fit the temporary vessel that is our body, instead of retaining our mind and soul but repair the vessel to fit our soul? I don't think God would focus more on the worldy aspect of you instead of your soul and your convictions."

Yeah, it's not a really smart argument.....

But as time goes by, I realised a lot and Christy Dancer couldn't have put it any better My new answer would probably be:

"Because this is God's Will and Grace that made me this way. Why do medical breakthroughs and treatments exists if not to correct defects? God made me question myself, question the society, so that I can find MYSELF in this world."

Perhaps, it's God's way of telling us to not get too comfy with the perceived norms of the world which humans take for granted?

Sherlyn

[Guest Sarinah]

This was the first question i recieved upon coming out to my parents, and it is one they continue to ask. I cannot seem to find the right words to explain why. In my own heart I know that since I put God in charge of my life he has been leading me to this point. I was born the way I am, with a gap between my body and soul. When I let God into my life he took away the anger, saddness, and he soothed the pain caused by the gap; but the gap remains. God has the power to fix the gap with a snap of his fingers, but I have come to believe that his plan is to guide me as we fix the gap together slowly but surely through my life.

[Guest S. Chrissie]

Something our pastor has been saying for the past 2 weeks, and also in today's service:

"Our bad start in Life is God's opportunity for an extraordinary ending"

The topic he was talking about for these few weeks were "One Life, Make It Count"

He gave the example of the life of Moses. His life was a great one, he was the leader of the Isrealites, the guy who received the Ten Commandments. But in his early life, he had a bad life, after killing an Egyptian, he was a fugitive from the Egyptian. Then, we was a shepard for years before he encounter God and you know what happened after.

Come to think of it, isn't our Life the same? Having to face the turmoils of the ever existing gap between our body and soul, for some, a few years, for others, a very loooong time...until they get married, they raised their children and so on. I do believe that this bad start in life (Well, most of us would probably agree that it isn't a a good experience, right?) gives God the chance to work in us when we encounter God. I do see quite a number of us, who are gender gifted, are still followers of Christ, despite how most churches view us. That just shows how our faith stays strong, and you might have touched many people's life without even knowing it, or will be touching and changing the lives of people in the future.

okay, sorry, it seems I am talking about a topic irrelevant to the thread

What I want to point out is what was said:

"Our bad start in Life is God's opportunity for an extraordinary ending"

Sherlyn

[Guest Elizabeth K]

This was the first question i recieved upon coming out to my parents, and it is one they continue to ask. I cannot seem to find the right words to explain why. In my own heart I know that since I put God in charge of my life he has been leading me to this point. I was born the way I am, with a gap between my body and soul. When I let God into my life he took away the anger, saddness, and he soothed the pain caused by the gap; but the gap remains. God has the power to fix the gap with a snap of his fingers, but I have come to believe that his plan is to guide me as we fix the gap together slowly but surely through my life.

WOW - such a powerful reply - it seems to answer so many questions!

Lizzy

ADDED:

"Our bad start in Life is God's opportunity for an extraordinary ending"

Your posting came in as I was responding to Sarinah - and this - combined with what she said

"I have come to believe that His plan is to guide me as we fix the gap together slowly but surely through my life"

says the 'something' I was looking for when I started the TOPIC.

We are an amazing group of people here at Laura's. I am speachless...

[Guest Evan_J]

I was asked this question by a family member and still get "so are you feeling any better because of doing this or will you accept that god made you this way?"

Online I'm wordy, in real life I say nothing. I look at them and either leave or change the subject. I refuse to be bullied into a conversation that makes me uncomfortable. They just brought it up because they make ideals into something selfish and hateful and think their being helpful and insightful.

I have often been called the strong and silent type. It drives my family crazy because I wont be persuaded into anything.

<--- Is also called cold and heartless in real life. Which isn't true but I guess I just rub people the wrong way.

You know, you're soundin more and more like my kinda guy lol puttin your name on the "cigar crew" list. For some reason "not taking your crap" has a way of getting labeled "cold and heartless".

[Guest StrandedOutThere]

I always remind myself that the Bible was mostly written by people years later with a few exceptions. And all of the books have been reviewed and revised by various councils as well as having bee traslated so many times - each translationcauses different problems. It doesn't sit well with a lot of Christians but I ama Christian by belief and by deeds so I can not judge anyone else and I don't think that I really need to listen to those who want to condem me. Jesus even spared an adulteress - the "let he amoung you who is without sin caste the first stone." story and that is forbidden in the Ten Commandments - his point is that we are not the judges, he also forgave the robbers that were crusified with him - I can't believe that we are just supposed to do nothing, that is why we have brains in the first place, whether in the right or wrong body.

And the Catholic Church is totally against the priests being married and yet the pope is supposed to be the spiritual desendent of Saint Peter, appointed 'head of the Apostles by Jesus saying, "You are the rock on which I will build my Father's Church", but after Jesus's death the Apostiles met in the house of Peter's mother-in-law? Religon always seems to have more questions than answers but it is faith and hope that helps as to go on.

Love ya,

Sally

Good point, Sally. I guess we can't really know what any of it actually says. Translating something multiple times often does end up changing the meaning in subtle but significant ways.

One of the things I am really gritting my teeth about is being out on places like Facebook. I have a lot of friends on there that went to middle school with me at a Christian school. A lot of them are very religious and are not fans of GLBT people. In one case someone from high school sent me a message because I had posted some stuff defending gay marriage. After making some very reasonable, polite responses to the points she'd made, I told her I was trans. She never messaged me back. Anyway, I'm expecting some of those anti-homosexuality verses to get tossed my way from other people once I'm officially out.

My mom's spared me any religious based attacks so far. I'm hoping it stays that way. There really is good scientific evidence that gender identity and sexual orientation are determined before birth. By that reasoning, transition is just as acceptable as fixing a cleft palate or taking insulin shots for diabetes.

[Guest CharlieRose]

This is a really good topic, with really neat responses.

I suppose I would make the points that God DID make me like this, bring up those studies about H-Y antigens being found in FTMs and that transsexual gene marker for MTFs if I needed to. I would also point out that unless they're a Christian Scientist, their argument's hypocritical, because this is a form of medicine for me. And also remind them that they're not God. They don't know what plans he has for me. They also aren't me. They don't know what I've been through. They don't know what I've said to God or what he's said to me. (Well, I don't really believe in literally *talking* to God, but I'll accept little signs and omens)

[Guest rayne1]

Let me start my saying the POINT of the topic was WHAT DO YOU SAY when someone says "Why are you not happy as God made you?".

I personally believe in a Creator, which is God the Father, Goddess the Mother, and the unknowable GODHEAD. I term the Creator 'GOD' in my postings to keep from getting into controversy. I am a combination Methodist-Wiccan-Catholic. My soul is a piece of GOD, so I am DEVINE in the sense of being a part of CREATION.

My reply would be:

GOD made me transsexual. I have studied my entire life to find a meaning in that and am still questioning why. BUT I personally asked GOD for resolution and he has led me to transition. To deny my right to transition is to deny GOD's will.

And it happened that way - a DEVINE introvention of supernatural nature I can never reveal because there are no words. And it involved me speaking directly with the Creator.

The intent for the posting? What kind of power is everyone using against the prejudice? What is everyone using for resolving the battle with that insane question, why aren't you happy as God made you? An I don't know if it is a Christian thing or not, but so often the Bible is quoted by those speakers. Their intent is to condemn us. I also feel strongly it makes them feel morally superior. It's horrible how a person THINKS he is Christian and yet can deny Jesus's commands to love others.

I tried that logic with my pastor that God made me a transsexual, but he doesn't see why I would want to change my body to female and that I should remain as a male no matter what and I will eventually get my thinking straight and be a perfect saint waiting for the Lord to return. The last part I can agree on perfecting the character spiritually. I told him what if God had created me a morfidite (part male and part female) Then he would concede that I could have a choice to go either way but not if I had the mind of female and the body of a male could I be allowed to change.