Opinion: What Makes a Woman?

[Carolyn Marie]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/opinion/sunday/what-makes-a-woman.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0&referrer

Please let me make clear that this opinion piece does not reflect the views of management here. We try to post articles that reflect many points of view, even those that are controversial. Speaking only for myself, the author makes some valid observations, but some of the things she says she's heard from our community, I have never personally heard or read.

Comments are welcome, but lets remember to keep the discussion civil. Thank you.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest]

Caitlyn Jenner was not making an opinion piece (with well thought arguments and such) on gender expression. She said some things like that she looked foward to nail polish with a little girl's optimism. I think most of us go trough that phase. I was super excited the first time I wore a dress and it was more of a liberation, I was finaly free of male gender stereotype, not suddenly prisoner of female ones

To look at miss Jenner or any of us as model on witch to base an argument like that does not means a lot to me.

I, for one, do not feel I need to explain my identity or even put a tag on it. I'm a woman, that's it. Whatever I do. And i'm a human first and foremost.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

Yep. Gender is complicated.

That's all I got right now.

Thanks for posting, Carolyn Marie.

[Guest Raya]

Thank you for that post, Carolyn Marie.

I found it to be refreshingly honest language. And I think it is imperative that we do not trample on the identity of women, as a general principal, and to keep an alliance.

[Charlize]

There are many things she says that i agree with and some that i don't. This trans* life for me has never been as easy as saying i have the wrong body. I'm personally not sure where my gender issues come from. I do know i've had them all my life. I do not mean to put women down in any way. In fact it is quite the opposite. I hope we don't lose our ability to be accepted by other women. I enjoy all the situations where i am accepted. As time goes on, apart from the period aspect, i understand much of what she brought up from the perspective of a young woman finding herself in the world that is dominated by the norms of this society. Unfortunately that does include sexism and male privilege.

Fortunately i must accept myself but i don't have to conform to anyones conception or stereotype.

My nails are a bit chipped because i'm not in a vacuum.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Carolyn Marie]

One thing that is a potential problem,and not unexpected, is the focus of the author on what Jenner said during her interview last month. Quoting Jenner's comments about being "born in the wrong body" and about looking forward to doing her nails; two comments, out of context from a two hour interview of one larger-than-life person, and all of a sudden she represents what we all think and feel.

Even though Jenner said she wasn't a spokesperson for the community, she's become one by default, and everything she says and does has been, and will continue to be, examined, amplified, and taken to represent the rest of us. Therein lies the problem with celebrity trans folk. If any of us, or most of us, have a different take on things, who will listen? Who will care? It isn't Jenner's fault, but it is a problem, IMO.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

I expect there is no shortage of trans people labeling her TERF cause she expresses some views where feminists have issues with trans people, particularly trans women. It is also a convenient way to attempt to discredit anything she says.

Her final statement:

Nail polish does not a woman make.

Is very similar to statements I have made.

If one pays attention to the rationale some folks within the community use, one will find there are lots of self justifications for one's gender identity or desire to transition that are rooted in gender stereotypes. And conversely, un-transitioned many trans folks seem obligated to go out of their way to conform to birth gender role stereotypes instead of being themselves.

One does not have to be a girl to like stereotypically girl things. Why can't guys wear nail polish?

Can't guys fight for the right to wear dresses, makeup and polish their nails? Women fought to be able to wear pants and now that is among social norms.

Now here is the interesting question, suppose it became accepted that guys can wear dresses, polish their nails and wear makeup, that it in fact became commonplace, would such items have the same attraction for trans women?

I suspect, since even if such were to come to pass, there would be styles of dresses guys would wear that differ from those of women. Thus that would become the focus, presenting in the women's fashion. But again that is conforming to a stereotype.

When it comes to the conflict between trans women and feminism, to the degree it exists, I feel the biggest contributor is that trans women who seek to join women's organizations all too often are more interested in having their identity as women validated by being accepted into such organizations than they are the actual cause. In some cases they are so driven by this that they don't even realize ways in which they promote some of the very things feminists have fought so hard against.

Certainly this isn't always the case, but it happens.

[Guest]

In many ways I applaud her. I don't think that many of us want to trample on womanhood. This is now a growth experience for all. I feel there will be many growing pains throughout. Even more reason we should respect the ladies'"turf".

We are uncomfortably trying to move into our comfort zone, when none is provided or accepted. We don't need a bully push to be accepted, we need to give all the quiet love and compassion we can muster.

OK Jody, tell us how? I can't. I am also on a very steep learning curve ever since I broke free of my crysillis with my eyes open. I don't need to apologize for my existence, I need to be aware of my behavior. That is why I want to portray myself as a kind and gental woman.

We don't have an easy means to get it right, straight out of the box. I yammer on and on here about studying women from birth to death, as a greater portion will be me in the second half of my lifetime. Primary yes to understand my needs and navigation in my journey. Is transition right for me? Yet none less secondary, the biology, sociology, health, economics, circumstances, add infinity of woman's issues. These are important tools for me to find my place. Replies? Heck, I don't even get a yes, no, maybe so...

I wish things were different. I can do my part to help us change our social situation for the good of all. The "Damn the torpedos!" comes from those who don't want that. I can only genuinely influence all those people in the middle. Hug. JodyAnn.

One more thing before my stiletto slips off the soapbox. There is a very good movie about the beginning days of the women's sufferage movement called Iron Angels. I ask the question, are we willing to stand out in the rain too with our efforts, or are we just hoping it will somehow be handed to us? That is another question I ask of myself and have no clear answer. Sorry, just thinking out loud here.

[Guest Kaylee]

I agree with you certainly on the last point Drea, about how some trans-women join clubs and such to have their womanhood validated... without caring so much about the cause.

In regards to the bit about nail polish not making a woman ... well, I don't do my nails to "look" like a woman, I do my nails because I "am" a woman! Is it part of a social norm.... yes! Do women do their nail so that they look like women... no. They do it because it's part of culture, and it looks nice.

This is kind of a "chicken or the egg" argument. These "girly" things natural for women to do, yet not for men to do. Were that different, perhaps you are right... it would be more obvious based on styles... but on that note... my cis sister goes right for the dark colors... and I prefer the brighter colors. Not really sure what that says though.

I'm still not sure how this woman decided that trans-women (aka Jenner) are defining her. Ms. Jenner doesn't define "me". While I relate to some things she said... she doesn't really reflect "me" that much... so how does it define her... or any other women?

I'm a pretty different person... and I bet the rest of you ladies are pretty unique too!

Kay

[Guest]

I agree with you certainly on the last point Drea, about how some trans-women join clubs and such to have their womanhood validated... without caring so much about the cause.

funny story, one of the only organization I had to left after my coming out was a feminist organization. I was an ally before and after some wanted to exclude me without any reason and others where criticizing everything I did including feminine things I did as a male before coming out.

with all due respect, what makes me cringe with those kind of articles is that I don't think a cis woman would come under such scrutiny. A trans woman trying to fit is. I feel a lot more like they are trying to put me back in the male box, where they are confortable seeing me. Being free is being able to do everything, to me at least. Maybe all of this is not really about feminism and what it is to be a woman after all...

[Charlize]

"In fact, it’s hard to believe that this hard-won loosening of gender constraints for women isn’t at least a partial explanation for why three times as many gender reassignment surgeries are performed on men. "

Wow this is an amazing statement. Let me paraphrase.....Because women now have rights MTFs are rushing to join them. Wow

Perhaps the author might take into consideration the difficulty of the procedures.

I'm tired for being accused of trying to live up to societies ideal of womanhood. I simply want to live my life as the person i am.

​It is hard enough being accepted as myself with as many clues as i can use. I don't expect to dress like a man and be taken for a woman. Several MTF friends of mine have that problem. Until they start T and get a beard clothing means nothing.

Hugs,

Charlize

[MarcieMarie12]

I think this comes down to perspective. From cis woman perspective, doing your nails, putting on make-up and the effort they take to be a woman is normal everyday activity (I am generalizing here though--not all women wear make-up). They also don't have society or themselves telling them that putting on make-up is wrong and they should stop. Also their gender identity and biological identity match, so they never questioned why girls got the pretty dresses and boys got ties.

From my perspective, to show my feminine side I desire to put on make-up/wear a dress. That is what most girls do so that is what I want to do to express it. Besides, I like it. It makes me feel pretty, and happy on the inside. I guess what I am getting at is that the desire to appear feminine is the result of being feminine in the first place.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

"In fact, it’s hard to believe that this hard-won loosening of gender constraints for women isn’t at least a partial explanation for why three times as many gender reassignment surgeries are performed on men. "

Wow this is an amazing statement. Let me paraphrase.....Because women now have rights MTFs are rushing to join them. Wow

Perhaps the author might take into consideration the difficulty of the procedures.

I'm tired for being accused of trying to live up to societies ideal of womanhood. I simply want to live my life as the person i am.

​It is hard enough being accepted as myself with as many clues as i can use. I don't expect to dress like a man and be taken for a woman. Several MTF friends of mine have that problem. Until they start T and get a beard clothing means nothing.

Hugs,

Charlize

Another thing that I think she misses with that statement is that GRS surgery for MTF is more advanced and has a higher success rate than for FTM. If her numbers are correct, she needs to take that fact into account. I mean, if I was considering doing an expensive surgery where the doctors would take a muscle from my arm and make it into a penis that may work in some ways but not in others, and if there was some risk that said penis may actually become necrotic and need to be removed, then, uh, I'd likely opt out.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

I think this comes down to perspective. From cis woman perspective, doing your nails, putting on make-up and the effort they take to be a woman is normal everyday activity (I am generalizing here though--not all women wear make-up). They also don't have society or themselves telling them that putting on make-up is wrong and they should stop. Also their gender identity and biological identity match, so they never questioned why girls got the pretty dresses and boys got ties.

From my perspective, to show my feminine side I desire to put on make-up/wear a dress. That is what most girls do so that is what I want to do to express it. Besides, I like it. It makes me feel pretty, and happy on the inside. I guess what I am getting at is that the desire to appear feminine is the result of being feminine in the first place.

Yes, this is an important distinction, MarcieMarie! I really want to form a response to Elinor Burkett's opinion, because I think she does make many valid points, but her particular feminist perspective has a cisgender blindspot.

Yes, being a cisgender woman means that you will be the recipient of types of oppression that transgender women are not. AND, being a transgender woman means that you will be the recipient of types of oppression that cisgender women are not. And there is overlap, where trans women who pass and cis women will be the recipients of some of the same oppressions. We could make a Venn Diagram!

As far as the formative years, trans women--or more accurately, later-transitioning trans women--do benefit from male privilege that cis women do not. Yet all trans people, not just trans women, suffer at some point from being consistently misgendered, and that creates a set of problems that cis women do not have to deal with.

One thing that's particularly intriguing to me about the problem she writes about is that second-wave feminism, viewed through a lens of gender roles and male privilege, tackled masculine supremacy (yes, I'm going to use that term) by asserting cis women's ability and right to take on stereotypically masculine gender roles. That's significant, because trans women are asserting their right to take on stereotypically feminine gender roles or expressions. Where it seems to get prickly is that many second-wave feminists, in asserting their right to take on male gender roles--and let me clarify that those roles or privileges, such as having a career, participating in sports, and access to education, have by now been fairly well socially accepted as women's rights--while they asserted their right to take on male gender roles, they also actively rejected many stereotypically feminine gender roles/expectations regarding sex (objectification) and marriage (stay at home with the kids, baby factory) and career (homemaker, secretary). But many trans women are now asserting their right to be actively gendered female and embrace some of the same stereotypically feminine gender roles that second-wave feminists rejected. And that feels threatening, because those feminists worked hard to move beyond what they perceive as superficial femininity. And while superficiality is not threatening, entrenched social norms that restrict groups of people to a lesser status are a problem.

But when trans women assert their right to not only appear feminine, but be comfortable in public as the women they are, that's as much a revolutionary act as a cis woman claiming a career outside of the home during the 1970s. It's revolutionary because this: trans women actively reject male privilege by simply being in their bodies in the way that feels right to them. It doesn't look the same as your mother's feminism, but it is the same fight--this time being waged from a different front and with very different tactics. Look again at Caitlyn Jenner on the front of Vanity Fair. Sure, she looks like she's posing for a 1950s pin-up. Believe me, I get that. Yes, it's problematic for feminism. But it's more problematic for masculine supremacy. Bruce Jenner was the man. Now Jenner's renounced manhood and is very publicly embracing femininity. Strike a blow against masculine supremacy.

And, yeah, also a blow against second-wave feminism--but a lesser one.

And third-wave feminism? Probably not too bothered by Jenner.

Here's a good reference, by the way, on the three waves of feminism: http://www.pacificu.edu/about-us/news-events/three-waves-feminism

[Cyndee]

my simplistic .02 and answer to the question of topic title - A human with a womb that produces eggs during her fertility life cycle (sex).

The rest would be applications for females (gender), and this debate could be endless and evolving....

C -

[Carolyn Marie]

Some pretty good stuff there, Megan. Thanks very much for providing that bit of verbal riposte. I kind of figured one was coming from somewhere.

There are plenty of good arguments on both (all?) sides. Which is the way it ought to be. I'm not about to analyze this. Someone else is bound to do it for me, and be far more eloquent than I. I'll be content to sit in my easy chair and read all about it.

Carolyn Marie

[VickySGV]

OK, danged if I know what I am by now. The whichness of what is making my head spin. Define what a "me" is and if I get to your part of the world I may treat you to a glass of water.

[Guest Charlotte J.]

Fortunately, I don't have an obligation to jump into that brouhaha.

The media will do it for us....

this is titled, "What Makes a Woman? A Trans Woman Responds to a Mid-20th Century Era Feminist"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-beyer/what-makes-a-woman-a-tran_b_7533324.html

Love, Megan

Thank you, Megan. That is a wonderful response! I was hoping someone with expertise would speak to the different brains issues. I really appreciate this concise statement: "It has been shown that trans women have female hypothalamic subnuclei in their brains that are related to their gender identity." Heck, I greatly appreciate everything she wrote.

Gosh, I feel good today. :)

[Charlize]

I can certainly relate more to the response you posted Megan than the original post.

Hugs,

Charlize