Gender Neutral Pronouns

[Guest Conrí]

Here is a "table" of pronouns. The table wouldn't actually paste correctly, so I colour coded them to make it easier to distinguish. The first two are the male and female pronouns, which are included as a reference to understand the sequence. The rest are gender neutral pronouns.

Subject Object Poss. Adjective Poss. Pronoun Reflexive Notes

he him his his himself masculine

she her her hers herself feminine

ze/sie hir hir hirs hirself neutral

zie zir zir zirs zirself neutral

ey em eir eirs eirself neutral

they them their theirs theirself/themself singular they; neutral

Out of these gender neutral pronouns, I prefer zie. With hir the pronunciation could be too similiar to her, which sort of defeats the purpose of being gender neutral. They singular is also pretty good, and many people already use it that way, but it can get confusing with plural or singular they.

[Guest Sable Dove]

I like the Spivak pronouns (ey, em, eir, etc.), though I often find myself just defaulting to masculine pronouns. This is mostly because I'm lazy and think we should just decide to use male or female pronouns for everyone, rather than introduce more and more pronouns. I choose masculine over feminine because, as I said, I'm lazy and the male pronouns average out to be shorter than female ones.

Similar to how I despise the title "Ms" because rather than just use Mrs. or Miss for everyone, regardless of marital status, we decided that a new, similar-but-different pronoun was necessary. A lot of this is personal taste. I don't say "actress" because their sex doesn't have anything to do with their career. They're an actor, and they're female. Two separate things.

To summarize my rant: I'd rather we just use either just masculine or just feminine pronouns for everyone, regardless of sex and gender. Failing that, Spivak pronouns get my vote.

...Though using gender-specific pronouns based on our own gender would be interesting...

I just can't stop blathering tonight.

[Guest April63]

Problem is, is that English? The first two rows are definitely English, the next three are not, and the last is improper. While it sounds degrading, the real gender neutral in English is:

it, its, itself

The "singular they" seems to be very popular among people now, but I don't use it. It's one of my "pet peeves". They are plural! lol

April

[Guest OneOutOfnOne]

April, the pronouns ze, zie, and ey are indeed meant to be used in English, though they were all invented relatively recently. I don't like using them because they stand out too much, and sound contrived, which, honestly, they are.

The singular 'they' gets my vote. It was widely accepted in the English language for centuries, appears multiple times in Shakespeare, and wasn't considered improper by English textbooks until the 1960s.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Everything other than the gender specific seem somehow contrived. That's an older person speaking.

However, my grandmother used 'yes mam'm' to everyone and no person ever seemed to misunderstand. Prior tp political correctess 'he' was used to describe humans, either gender. Same with "man."

'God creted man in His own image," type expressions. [GOD is a neutral gender GOD, in reality.]

I do wish there was neutral set of pronouns in English. Perhaps the male ones should be rethought of as neutral and new pronouns invented for males,

[Guest Sable Dove]

I do wish there was neutral set of pronouns in English. Perhaps the male ones should be rethought of as neutral and new pronouns invented for males,

Why would we need to make new male pronouns? Ideally, everyone would use the neutral pronouns, and masculine and feminine pronouns would fall out of use anyways.

...Ideally.

[Guest April63]

While ze, zie, and ey may have been made for English, they are not English. Not in the dictionary. Perfect way to fail an English exam.

April

[Guest Conrí]

While ze, zie, and ey may have been made for English, they are not English. Not in the dictionary. Perfect way to fail an English exam.

April

Well, they are new words, which is why they aren't in the dictionary. It also doesn't help that no one can agree on a single set to use - another reason they aren't in the dictionary.

But, since the English neutral pronoun ("it") IS degrading, we need a new word, re-accept "they" as a singular in addition to be a plural, go back to the old system of never using pronouns for those whom "he" or "she" would be incorrect (such as myself) or just readopt the old system in general which would prove cumbersome and lead back into the use of pronouns.

[Guest Deeedoo]

Problem is, is that English? The first two rows are definitely English, the next three are not, and the last is improper. While it sounds degrading, the real gender neutral in English is:

it, its, itself

The "singular they" seems to be very popular among people now, but I don't use it. It's one of my "pet peeves". They are plural! lol

April

I have no problem with the it. In fact, I refer to myself as it. I also use 'it' for creatures whose genders I cannot identify, including humans. It offends some people, but I don't care because it's a silly thing to be offended about.

[Guest April63]

I know it really is silly. If it is no problem, what's wrong with he and she?

April

[Sally]

Sally has the solution.

Sally says never use pronouns just proper names it works for Sally.

Sally hasn't offended anyone so far and Sally likes it that way.

It does make Sally sound a little egotistical but at least Sally is always politically Correct!

A real feather in Sally's cap!

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest April63]

And Sally said "it" aka a pronoun.

Sorry, Sally, but you are the weakest link.

April

[Sally]

But, but, but it never referred to a person!

Sally has the solution.

Sally says never use pronouns just proper names it works for Sally.

Sally says never use pronouns just proper names, Sally is experiencing great success!

Sally hasn't offended anyone so far and Sally likes it that way.

Sally hasn't offended anyone so far and Sally is enjoying Sally's Political correctness.

It does make Sally sound a little egotistical but at least Sally is always politically Correct!

Referring to Sally as Sally all of the time does make Sally sound a little egotistical but at least Sally is always politically Correct!

A real feather in Sally's cap!

Has Sally redeemed Sally?

Love,

Sally

[Guest mia 1]

Mia was going to respond but Mia read Sally's reply Mia hates pronouns Mia likes Sally ands Mia likes Laura's Forum Members.

[Guest April63]

Well, April is now offended. Burn! lol haha

April

[Guest leo]

agrees with sally

[Guest Conrí]

I know it really is silly. If it is no problem, what's wrong with he and she?

April

Nothing is wrong with he and she. You use she for girls/women, and he for boys/men and sometimes as an inclusive. But, when you have someone that isn't a girl or a boy, then what do you use?

It - touchy to use as a pronoun and is normally used against us to try and offend, but hey, people call babies it all the time and then go and call an object a he or a she .

I tend to slip into using they or the person's name.

[Guest Deeedoo]

It - touchy to use as a pronoun and is normally used against us to try and offend, but hey, people call babies it all the time and then go and call an object a he or a she

I use 'he' on my trombone Shiny because I know he is male. People try to use it to insult me but I don't care because I really am an it usually. I really don't care about any pronouns for me, but I try to find the right pronoun for others. Usually if I haven't found one yet I just use 'it'. People get mad at me, but it doesn't matter because they're wrong. In writing, instead of using the cumbersome 'he or she', which still doesn't include androgynous people, I just use 'it' even if it seems strange to the teachers. It's one of my strange ways of referring to things, like saying 'non-human' instead of 'animals' because I want to include protists, fungi, bacteria, and plants and at the same time not group humans in there because humans are animals. I may seem scientific, and I am.

An alternative to 'it' may be to always say 'this person' or 'that person', but it's not as easy as just saying 'it'.

[Guest April63]

Why don't we use the pronouns of our physical sex? I think that would simplify a lot of things.

April

[Guest Conrí]

Why don't we use the pronouns of our physical sex? I think that would simplify a lot of things.

April

Because their gender doesn't match their physical sex. It would be the same as me referring to you as a "he" or referring to an ftm as a "she." Does it make sense now? You use the pronoun that the individual would prefer, which normally matches their gender, which does not always match their physical sex. But not everyone has a gender that matches male or female, which is one of the purposes behind gender neutral pronouns (the other purpose being when you do not know the preference of the individual). I would much rather be called it than referred to as my physical sex.

[Guest April63]

But my question is, why do we use pronouns to refer to our genders? Why not physical sex?

April

[Guest Cody_T]

But my question is, why do we use pronouns to refer to our genders? Why not physical sex?

April

we don't use the pronouns to refer to our physical sex because the general public has not managed to separate sex from gender. Technically, pronouns do refer to our physical sex, and to our gender, at the same time. This is due to the popular conception of the two as one communal entity.

When there's a disconnect though, gender obviously wins out. Choosing to refer to sex over gender would be like letting a rock have the last ice cream cone instead of a little boy, in an attempt to protect the rock's feelings. Rocks don't have feelings and sex (excuse the great pun here) doesn't have "feelings" either.

Sex is, gender creates. By calling someone he, you are implying that he is male in sex and in gender, to the average person. If you call a person with male sex "she", this does not impact the sex at all, as the listener has no effect on the person's sex. If you call a person with a male gender "she", their gender is automatically refiltered through the listener's perspective, and their gender's social perception is changed.

I say my sex is female, and the average person will tell me my gender is female. (and insist, they're quite adamany about these things). Since they're only ever going to see my gender (unless he's really, really, really hot and temporarily incapable of speaking), it makes more sense that they should wrongly percieve my sex than my gender.

If you have a gender that doesn't correlate to any sex, then you don't have a pronoun. That's where we really need "gender neutral". Which technically means sex neutral, as the pronouns only are available for male and female. What it really is, though, is a more accurate representation of the person. Or if you're a gender deconstructionist, it's a something or other... sorry, this is where my info runs out because I'm in the "keep the pronouns" camp. I do think it'd be cool to have some set extended ones that refer to more genders than just male and female, or at least well known neutral ones

So basically, "we" collectively as a human race *do* use pronouns to refer to our sex. "We" human race, also use them to refer to gender which is "the exact same thing" according to most people. "We" as transgender people use pronouns to refer to our gender, because using pronouns referring to our sex is misleading and disturbs our interpersonal relationships.

P.S. Sable: I think the Ms. thing was a feminist invention, wasn't it? So that like Mr., a woman's status didn't depend on whether or not they were married.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

So basically, "we" collectively as a human race *do* use pronouns to refer to our sex. "We" human race, also use them to refer to gender which is "the exact same thing" according to most people. "We" as transgender people use pronouns to refer to our gender, because using pronouns referring to our sex is misleading and disturbs our interpersonal relationships.

EXACTLY

Lizzy

[Guest April63]

Interesting. I think gender and sex pretty much are the same, but for us, they may be different. But in most cases they are the same.

I suppose I see what you're getting at.

April

[Guest Conrí]

Interesting. I think gender and sex pretty much are the same, but for us, they may be different. But in most cases they are the same.

I suppose I see what you're getting at.

April

If gender and sex were the same, then trans people would not exist.