Response from Rabbi About Being Transgendered

[Imaginary Spiders]

So I am Jewish and transgender. I think it is quite possible that I am also intersexed. Traditional Judaism is not very supportive of trans people. However, it is more lenient towards intersex individuals because their gender is truly uncertain. I emailed a rabbi about this. I thought perhaps I would get a supportive response because of the possibility that I am intersexed. However, I did not. First the rabbi discussed Judaism's definition of the intersexed.

In Judaism there are two categories of intersexed individuals. Category one is known as Tumtum. These individuals are born with concealed genitalia. The second category is known as Androgens which refers to an individual who has both male and female genitalia. Helacha states that if an individual has obvious male genitalia then they are male. Also in the of the Jewish intersex categories those individuals are not permitted to come in contact with either gender especially in the form of touching. as you may know in traditional Judaism one is not permitted to touch the opposite gender except for in the case of marriage.

I also asked for advice on being transgender. I mentioned how I am considering transitioning to female and doing HRT possibly. I didn't mention That I have been considering a sex change sense age 11. I didn't think that would go over well. His advice was not do estrogen, but testosterone because one with male Genitalia is male and always will be. He went onto state that I should attempt to strengthen my maleness.

The individual is an orthodox Rabbi. Much of what he says matches up to the orthodox view. I emailed a rabbi because I desperately wanted a Jewish opinion before I move forward. I respect his answer and find it informative, however it is basically telling me to be a man and suck it up though I can't and ignore the fact that I have serious issues that won't just go away. I hope this has been helpful. I didn't know much about the Jewish opinion on the intersexed until now. I also hope it helps to see the traditional Jewish view on being transgender. Also I will be contacting a reform rabbi and hopefully a conservative one about this. I will post about those responses when I get them as a way to present the different Jewish opinions on being transgender.

[Carolyn Marie]

Thank you, Laura, for relating your experience with this Rabbi. I am not at all surprised to learn he is an Orthodox Rabbi, as the Orthodox branch of Judaism has not been supportive, either in the U.S. or in Israel. However, I know of several Reform Rabbis in my area and nationwide who are extrmely supportive and welcoming of trans folk. If you look, I am pretty sure you can find support within the faith. Please do let us know of your results. I wish you luck.

HUGS

Carolyn Marie

[Imaginary Spiders]

Thanks. I know the reform movement tends to be pretty acceptant. I come from a secular family, so I feel that I fall somewhere between the secular and reform mindset. However, I like to hear what all rabbis have to say. One of the things that really helped me to come to accept myself as transgender was becoming aware of the reform movements attempts to make trans people feel welcome.

[Guest Mickey]

Ancient Israel actually accepted 6 different genders.

[Imaginary Spiders]

Interesting bit of information. From what I have read there is a lot evidence of transgenderism in the Tenach/Old Testament. The example I always found interesting is the Midrashic story of Dinah. It tells how Leah gives birth to Dinah as a son and then wishes to God to have a daughter instead and Dinah suddenly becomes female. Then I think I read on here about how Joseph's coat of many colors is properly translated as princess dress, which may be evidence of transgenderism. I'm sure there are many more examples. I don't understand how rabbis were able to accept it then, but not now. I mean the more traditional rabbis of course.

[Guest Mickey]

Seems like most people have a need to feel like they are better than somebody else. If they can point to us, as Trans* people, and call us evil and abominations, pointing out our unrighteousness, then they can feel as if they are righteous people. "At least we aren't as bad as them." That kinda thing. It's too bad they don't understand the love of God.

[Guest Kenna Dixon]

Religious leader or not, a person these days who defines gender strictly in terms of organs is willfully ignorant.

People have a right to stop learning whenever they like, but at the same point in time I'll cease respecting their opinions.

[tracy_j]

Thank you Laura for posting and everyone else for their input.

I always feel it is good to know about cultures and religions so although I cannot really add to the above at least I now have a bit of a feel for the approach of Judaism in current and historic context.

Tracy

[Guest Raya]

Laura, I can only add what I know from my experience- trying to suck it up, and man up did not work, I tried for 39 years after a disasterous experience being out as a youth. And I tried hard to get over it, had therapy, spent 5 years in mens groups at church actively trying to "overcome", had had lots of prayer from others and numerous prayers of my own. And I've dealt with difficult problems sucessfully, gone from a black out drunk to 13 years sober, from 90lbs overweight to trim, and from 3 packs a day to non smoker. Those were tough, but I succeeded. Because it was possible, and I tried hard. Tried much harder, much longer, to "man up". Finally decided it was not possible, and it was splitting me in two And a lot of the self abusive behavior was rooted in gender dysphoria.

[Guest Raya]

So I concluded God would rather have 1 whole and functional me, regardless of what some of Gods people think.

And, post acceptance, I finally got an answer to my prayer -but it was a new prayer of thanks- thank you God. After that one, I felt a big "you're welcome", with a smile attached.

[Imaginary Spiders]

Kenna: I agree that it is ignorant to define one based upon genitalia. Also traditional Judaism is ignorant though I respect it in the fact that it has a very narrow definition of who is intersexed. It ignores things such chromosomal conditions and hormonal imbalances which may also constitute an interesexed individual. Also I find it interesting how religious fundamentalist ignore science, such as all of the science that has emerged about both the interesexed and transgendered. It was science that convinced me that I'm transgender not religion.

Tracy: I think I have a pretty good understanding of your experience. I tried to man up as you put for 25 years and it was hell. I imagine that doing it for 39 years is even worse. By age 4 or so I knew that I should be a girl. I have always felt female, but never knew what it meant. When my parents found out about my cross dressing habit they just thought I was gay. I didn't know anything about gender identity, so I just thought that maybe I was gay. Then I just tried to imagine myself as a gay man which was mostly based on stereotypes because that's all I knew. It just didn't feel right to me. I found it weird that I was supposedly gay, but found men degusting and liked girls. So I tried to be a man. So I tried to embrace the "invasion of the testosterone monster" which is what I refer to male puberty as. Everyone was so proud of me becoming a young man and becoming masculine, but inside I hated it, I just wished it would stop and that I could go through female puberty instead. I almost found some hope during puberty when I experienced breast growth. I thought I was going to have breasts like a woman and then it stopped. So I spent those 12 years from age 13 trying to be a man just to please people. The main reason I went through all of that suffering is ignorance. Over ten years ago where I am from which is in the middle of a rural area it was basically considered taboo to talk about LGBT things. Actually I didn't even know what that term meant. I really really wish someone would have just told me when I was 13 or younger What it means to be transgender and that I am indeed a woman and that it's okay to like girls. I remember at one point I tried to force myself to like boys because I thought I was required to, but it just grossed me out. I couldn't imagine myself making love to something I couldn't stand being. So now I am getting ready to transition to being the girl I always knew I was with the hope that my past will no longer determine my future. Thanks for making me think of all of this. It really helps to get 20+ years worth of buried things out of your system.

[Guest Raya]

Yes, your past does not have to control your future! And it really does help to get the junk out of your system. Enjoy the journey.

[Imaginary Spiders]

I contacted a rabbi from Chabad the other day. Chabad is in an ultra orthodox Hasidic movement. I expected to just get a rather negative response such as just be a man and ignore my issues. I asked him about his opinion on transitioning to female. He wrote "Your choice should be about what's really you, and your mission in life." I was shocked to get this answer. I may be misunderstanding things slightly, but I believe I have just been told by an ultra orthodox rabbi that I should transition to female. I also mentioned to him that I am attracted to women and asked what my sexual orientation would be in the eyes of Judaism. His response was basically that I should not be attracted to women that it is "prohibited". Never expected in a million years to have an ultra orthodox rabbi tell me this.

[Guest]

Kenna: I agree that it is ignorant to define one based upon genitalia. Also traditional Judaism is ignorant though I respect it in the fact that it has a very narrow definition of who is intersexed. It ignores things such chromosomal conditions and hormonal imbalances which may also constitute an interesexed individual. Also I find it interesting how religious fundamentalist ignore science, such as all of the science that has emerged about both the interesexed and transgendered. It was science that convinced me that I'm transgender not religion.

Tracy: I think I have a pretty good understanding of your experience. I tried to man up as you put for 25 years and it was hell. I imagine that doing it for 39 years is even worse. By age 4 or so I knew that I should be a girl. I have always felt female, but never knew what it meant. When my parents found out about my cross dressing habit they just thought I was gay. I didn't know anything about gender identity, so I just thought that maybe I was gay. Then I just tried to imagine myself as a gay man which was mostly based on stereotypes because that's all I knew. It just didn't feel right to me. I found it weird that I was supposedly gay, but found men degusting and liked girls. So I tried to be a man. So I tried to embrace the "invasion of the testosterone monster" which is what I refer to male puberty as. Everyone was so proud of me becoming a young man and becoming masculine, but inside I hated it, I just wished it would stop and that I could go through female puberty instead. I almost found some hope during puberty when I experienced breast growth. I thought I was going to have breasts like a woman and then it stopped. So I spent those 12 years from age 13 trying to be a man just to please people. The main reason I went through all of that suffering is ignorance. Over ten years ago where I am from which is in the middle of a rural area it was basically considered taboo to talk about LGBT things. Actually I didn't even know what that term meant. I really really wish someone would have just told me when I was 13 or younger What it means to be transgender and that I am indeed a woman and that it's okay to like girls. I remember at one point I tried to force myself to like boys because I thought I was required to, but it just grossed me out. I couldn't imagine myself making love to something I couldn't stand being. So now I am getting ready to transition to being the girl I always knew I was with the hope that my past will no longer determine my future. Thanks for making me think of all of this. It really helps to get 20+ years worth of buried things out of your system.

When did I write this? Oh, I didn't. You tell my story very accurately. That is truly amazing. I thank God in tears of joy and awe, he has delivered me and made me whole. No man could have created that miracle within me. So I will allow no man to interpretate that for me. I am blessed. My ownly downfall is loosing site of that, then I throw myself into the jaws of the wolves of this world. Each time God delivers me, yet it all seems so illusive. I wish you well on your quest, you are one of God's very special gems. Adorn him with your sparkle my sister. Hug. JodyAnn

[Guest]

Ancient Israel actually accepted 6 different genders.

Wow! I'm Androgynos Saris... I like that title! Sounds almost angelic. Giggle. Hug. JodyAnn

[DaHudie Biz]

I wasn't supported in Texas, but I most certainly am in California so region may affect results.

[Cecilia]

On 10/7/2015 at 1:55 PM, Imaginary Spiders said:

So I am Jewish and transgender. I think it is quite possible that I am also intersexed. Traditional Judaism is not very supportive of trans people. However, it is more lenient towards intersex individuals because their gender is truly uncertain. I emailed a rabbi about this. I thought perhaps I would get a supportive response because of the possibility that I am intersexed. However, I did not. First the rabbi discussed Judaism's definition of the intersexed.

In Judaism there are two categories of intersexed individuals. Category one is known as Tumtum. These individuals are born with concealed genitalia. The second category is known as Androgens which refers to an individual who has both male and female genitalia. Helacha states that if an individual has obvious male genitalia then they are male. Also in the of the Jewish intersex categories those individuals are not permitted to come in contact with either gender especially in the form of touching. as you may know in traditional Judaism one is not permitted to touch the opposite gender except for in the case of marriage.

I also asked for advice on being transgender. I mentioned how I am considering transitioning to female and doing HRT possibly. I didn't mention That I have been considering a sex change sense age 11. I didn't think that would go over well. His advice was not do estrogen, but testosterone because one with male Genitalia is male and always will be. He went onto state that I should attempt to strengthen my maleness.

The individual is an orthodox Rabbi. Much of what he says matches up to the orthodox view. I emailed a rabbi because I desperately wanted a Jewish opinion before I move forward. I respect his answer and find it informative, however it is basically telling me to be a man and suck it up though I can't and ignore the fact that I have serious issues that won't just go away. I hope this has been helpful. I didn't know much about the Jewish opinion on the intersexed until now. I also hope it helps to see the traditional Jewish view on being transgender. Also I will be contacting a reform rabbi and hopefully a conservative one about this. I will post about those responses when I get them as a way to present the different Jewish opinions on being transgender.

I don't know if my experience will be helpful, but just wanted to share and have fellowship with you.  I was born Russian Jewish and grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn NY called "Little Odessa". I have known I had a birth gender defect since about age 6 or so.   I spent a lot of time trying to understand how this could have happened to me, and coming to grips with my frustration.  I never reconciled that with Judaism.  I had two major problems with Judaism - these are called "biblical inerrancy" and "biblical infallibility".   These brought me to a place where science and critical thinking gave me the feeling that Judaism was not a truly accurate depiction of God and our place in this Universe, and I felt that in my heart.   I tried Born Again Christianity for a short while but any Abrahamic religion still has to contend with  "biblical inerrancy" and "biblical infallibility".  My frustration with the bible being errant and fallible took me to agnosticism.  But in my heart I believed in survivalism of some sort and I did not believe annihilationism was realistic.   In college I did both my undergrad and grad school at Catholic and Jesuit schools (Sacred Heart,  LaSalle, and Regis) and none of the academic courses I attended at the undergrad or graduate level helped me in any way come to grips with my views on survivalism and annihilationism;  nor did it bring me to a place where I felt I fit into our Universe as a Trans Woman.  I view pure survivalism and pure annihilationism to be the two far spectrums of theologic thinking, as do all religious scholars.  I wanted something "in the middle somewhere" that didn't fail the test of "biblical inerrancy" and "biblical infallibility";  if that makes sense.    So that is where I am now.   I am now thinking what makes sense to my scientific mind and critical thinking is Buddhism.  It has the aspects of survivalism (something beyond this life) that I believe exists in our Universe, and yet it has no canonized "Words of God" that can be inerrant or infallible.   If you or anyone else is going the the same journey as I am, and wants to be friends and discuss as we learn -  I would love to have fellowship with fellow religious pilgrims.  

 

[Guest Clair Dufour]

Cecilia: I have been reading Hindu texts written at the same time as the bible but, far more expansive, that make clear they had no problem with LGBT people. While thanks to the Mogules and the British, India is still not a great place for LGBT people, there are enough traditions and temples that are pro LGBT and they wear really cool outfits. A good overview read is at http://www.galva108.org/

[DaHudie Biz]

Frankly, I don't give a D*!* what people think or who they are.  I can stand on my own two feet and make a choice to be happy.  Hell, they're not trans.