Restrooms & Locker Rooms Pose Problems Even In Progressive Places

[Carolyn Marie]

http://time.com/4324687/even-in-liberal-communities-transgender-bathroom-laws-worry-parents/

I think this points out a real problem for us and for everyone else; restrooms are one thing, locker rooms quite another. If facilities don't have reasonable rules to protect everyone's privacy, problems like those mentioned will continue to occur and harm everyone. It's hard to imagine that the person mentioned using the New York locker room had identified as a transwoman, but the lack of any procedures for ensuring privacy seems absurd. No one on the staff can ask the question, "what is your gender identity?" No one using the women's locker room has to present as female? I don't understand that. Such incidents absolutely WILL get played up in the media. It behooves all of us in this community to make sure we aren't acting so irresponsibly.

Carolyn Marie

[tracy_j]

I have been thinking about this years summer holiday and the swimming pool changing facilities. There is no way I could use the womens room even though generally presenting as female these days. I can understand the problem with this as it is obvious. The only way I see is family room which pre srs trans people can use.

Interestingly though I do remember my partner mentioning a family from another culture using the womens locker room when she was there. They obviously could not show their bodies and all changed alternately behind towels. It does seem possible if one appears female but too risky for me and I wouldn't want other women to be spooked for something so trivial.

Tracy

[Charlize]

I certainly agree with Carolyn Marie: "It behooves all of us in this community to make sure we aren't acting so irresponsibly." I will add to this what we all seem to know and few in the cis gender world understand. I and all the trans* men and women i know have no desire to expose themselves. Of course there are some who would abuse any chance to peep or expose themselves either in or outside of a rest or locker room. They do so already and there are laws regarding such behavior.

Please be careful.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Drea]

It seems to me that it is impossible. Trans people forcefully assert it is rude to ask their gender identity on one hand, yet on the other hand insist that nothing more than their claim of gender identity should be the sole basis for access. And on the third hand according to trans people one is supposed to ask someone what pronouns should be used to refer to them.

There is this magical thinking that abounds that with no definition a transgender person is self evident. That magically people will know because trans people always conform to gender stereotypes so they would never be seen bald or with facial hair in the ladies room.

The author does seem to perpetuate the fallacy I quote "Meeting the needs of those girls and of trans women in various stages of gender transition can pose logistical issues." The specific intent of the laws is to not only cover transitioners but also those who aren't transitioning as well as all form one may express which could include a trans woman who doesn't feel obligated to conform to gender norms so may not have a wig on in a shower, may have facial hair, etc.

[VickySGV]

About the time we think we have an answer, some rude dude changes the question!!

[Charlize]

The whole area of Q or very androgynous folks who have no desire to go to either side of the gender binary is indeed difficult and will take even more time to sort out. I have a young friend who shared the other evening the quandary that had to be faced when told early in life that the boys should go to one side of the room and the girls to the other. "Where do i belong" is a question for a good many.

Society is changing albeit slowly. Unfortunately that growth is accompanied by growing pains and set backs but hopefully the end result will be a more accepting and open society where people can be themselves without being harmed or harming others.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Carolyn Marie]

I think its a truism that when rules change, problems emerge that we didn't anticipate. That happens in every endeavor imaginable. So its no great surprise that the when changing room and shower room access rules change, there will be unforeseen problems. Society can deal with this in one of two ways: people can either get hysterical and angry, or we can remain calm and rational and look for workable, practical solutions.

We will get it sorted out; I just hope no one gets hurt while we're busy sorting.

Carolyn Marie

[Cyndee]

my .02 - I see us moving beyond the "self declaration" validity at some point, these loopholes will be addressed and closed. The state of MA is already working up proposals in this area. A carry letter requirement seems to come to mind for those that choose to "push it". I personally would never use a woman's changing/locker room or shower pre-op, restroom stalls are different (more private). Medical necessity and proof of being under care of a licensed Dr seems to be a reasonable minimum threshold. Gender identity should be sincerely held, some sort of proof of this may be needed, I say this knowing this might offend some that feel the medical requirement might be too much, or unneeded, or unfair, but that is just my opinion. I choose to treat my condition with medical and PhysD intervention, it worked for me and is valid.

C -

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

No one using the women's locker room has to present as female? I don't understand that.

I don't understand that, either. I think that's the loophole people exploit and where a restrictive guideline needs to be created. Why can't we just show our carry letter if someone stops us? It specifically says we're looking and acting like the gender we're transitioning to. I know that's going to make some people upset but that carry letter is one thing we all aim to acquire and covet because it's supposed to be our proof that we're not a perv.

I do like the idea of blocking off time for the swim team to shower and change. I think that's important.

[Drea]

Unforeseen problems are one thing. I find it unfathomable that anyone could not have foreseen the blowback and these sorts of problems.

Why can't we just show our carry letter if someone stops us?

That is the standard I have suggested. That could be used by someone who is part time (and perhaps not even transitioning to full time). That same letter would serve in the interim till documents change.

While that standard could have headed off some of the criticisms of the "because I say so standard" now that the "because I say so" standard has been so hard pushed, trying to retreat to that position as a result of the blowback is problematical. What may have been easily sold when only a few were looking will be a much harder sell with all the "awareness" (negative sense) that has been created.

Most of al,l the whole point was to make sure non-transitioners including CD were covered. Once you establish some requirement like a carry letter you are "medicalizing" the issue.

I really do need to touch on one comment trans people seem to throw around awfully loosely without considering the problems it can cause for themselves and if not for them, for others. That is the expectation that someone should look and act the part (e.g. the person should look and act like a woman) if they expect to use the facilities for that gender. This assertion is completely built on stereotype. Going down that road makes it about passing and it also opens the door for judgment and questioning which trans people are very sensitive about their choice about how they present their gender identity.

[tracy_j]

Sorry to put the blockers on a bit but I think the carry letter is likely to be of little value.

Luckily I have never been confronted yet in the bathroom but from experience of similar situations I have found that things can happen really quickly - much faster than anyone is able to produce a letter, and it has been stated that we form impressions of people within the first few moments of seeing them.

It may work with the attendant or mall guard but I think very few women are likely to want to spend time examining papers in the bathroom. They will either want to get out or get you out as quickly as possible.

Here in the UK we have to freedom such that people do not have to carry papers. This brings pictures to me of an extremist state and I personally don't think it would work. It could also be argued that someone may easily forge papers. That would not have to happen many times (either really or falsely on social media) for the whole subject to be raised again anyway.

Tracy

[Cyndee]

You're right Tracy, the carry letter is not going to be requested in a bathroom out in daily life, and it's never happened to me either, I do have F on my drivers license.

Quite different situation in the article in this thread - what about the person that makes no effort to blend in as female (forget stereotypes), and in fact displays very male properties, such as facial and upper torso hair, or worse (genitals), and then decides it's legal to use the women's changing room and shower(open spaces) like it is now in many places ? This person's gender identity sincerity could be questionable and could be asked to produce some sort of documentation overriding the concerns based on appearance (sorry, there is a bulge showing in your shorts). We had a male "protester" invade a women's locker room here in Seattle a few months back for the purpose of creating disruptions and exploiting the situation, trying to influence a bill being tried in our senate 2 days before. This person was asked "are you transgender ?" and the answer was no, in this case this person was asked to leave, the staff there did their jobs. This person did not possess a sincerely held gender identity of female and was shown the door. There are creeps out there (sorry) and nut cases (conservative trolls).

[Drea]

Sorry to put the blockers on a bit but I think the carry letter is likely to be of little value.

...

It may work with the attendant or mall guard but I think very few women are likely to want to spend time examining papers in the bathroom. They will either want to get out or get you out as quickly as possible.

First off, a carry letter, ID, etc or any sort of legal protection that doesn't require documents would only be relevant to law enforcement after a complaint has been raised. None prevents someone from making a complaint in the first place.

The assertion that papers can be forged doesn't negate the value. First off state identity documents can be verified, a carry letter can equally be verified by checking the named clinician actually exists and contacting the clinician to verify they issued the letter. Like any law, this stuff only becomes relevant after a complaint has occurred and someone in authority or law enforcement is involved. Complaints happen all the time about things that are perfectly legal just because someone has an issue.

[Carolyn Marie]

I was recently at a public event at which more than 100 trans people were present. One person was wearing female attire and sported a beard (not just stubble). It was off putting to me, and yes, I admit I have prejudices. Do I think she should use a women's restroom? Up to her, but I wouldn't have an objection. Do I think she should be allowed to use a women's locker room? I'm not sure. I know it would cause other women present discomfort. I suppose it would be OK if there was a means of providing both the transwoman and other women with reasonable privacy. But I maintain the position I stated in my first post: the transwoman herself should be sufficiently self-aware that she would not seek to do that.

Carolyn Marie

[Ravin]

The locker room discussion also comes up in the context of families with opposite gender parents bringing children through locker rooms, and the age that is appropriate, versus sending them into the other one on their own. It spun off into the transgender issue in such a discussion on a homeschooling forum I frequent not long ago. The general consensus was that family/unisex locker rooms with private areas for showering and changing pretty much solve all the problems.

What we need to move away from is the binary and the notion that dividing communal space by a binary gender designation confers privacy.

[tracy_j]

My thinking on the person who makes no attempt to blend in (at least here) is that they should not really be in (for example of mtf) the womens bathroom as they are really inciting problems (looking through a table of offences from Crown Prosecution Service I have found for UK it may be 'Acts outraging public decency' but I am not an expert). These are really covered here anyway although perhaps not very strongly.

It is not really this I am getting at. The thing I see is like many violent or other acts which occur through fear or other emotion. They occur very quickly and can get really nasty. This is where a piece of paper will help little but a result of major injury could easily occur. For me this would be the concern.

With respect to that, possible legal issues, although time consuming and stressful, have a lesser bearing. A letter or other document is very helpful here as a court would have to take this into account if from a professional person and the Crown Prosecution Service would take that into account. It's just getting to that point without suffering rough justice first! It is probable that the person who raises the initial objection would know little of process and letters so if a simple explanation of 'I am trans' or similar fails then recourse to the beat policeman or just 'get out quick' may be the only logical alternatives.

Tracy

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

Radical idea: what if....what if the government acknowledged transgender as a 3rd gender. Then a specific transgender bathroom wouldn't violate "separate but equal", right?

Yeah I know, it'll probably never happen.

[Jani]

Lizzie, stop making sense!

Jani

[Guest Melissa~]

Just to toss my occasional post in, I -do- support documentation, though it's my opinion that a BC is a rather high bar. I know MANY post op's that haven't bothered with BCs. Perhaps the right level of ID is a driver license or state ID that can be changed to not match the BC no more than once a year. That would allow real life test, and detransition, but not rapid flip-flopping.

[Ravin]

There are also a couple of states that won't change the BC for anything, even after every possible surgery or whatever.

Like Idaho, where I was born.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Irony of Ironies.. I remember when Colleen Francis (trans person) exposed her self to teenage girls in a womens locker room and everyone in the community bent backwards to try to paint it as a non issue. Telling everyone the Democrats will protect our bathroom rights and that it didn't matter. Fast forward 5 years how's that working out for everyone?

The thing is the community has banged as hard as they can on their drum for allowing the entire umbrella use the bathroom of their choice with little to no vetting of their criminal history or their psychological state. How is anyone surprised that such a huge push back would eventually happen? The American people are clearly losing their taste for political correctness, and yet the political arm of the community still seems content on attempting to use it as their primary shield against criticism.

The answer to the bathroom/locker issue lies somewhere in the middle and not in unlimited unvetted access. I think for safety reasons alone transmen and women should use the bathroom of their transitioned gender, however these protections should not be carte blanche. These protections should only be extended to those who are medically transitioning and are living full time in the appropriate gender role. Demanding that identity alone supported by nothing else than the individuals word should be all one needs is kinda insane.

[Guest]

Irony of Ironies.. I remember when Colleen Francis (trans person) exposed her self to teenage girls in a womens locker room and everyone in the community bent backwards to try to paint it as a non issue. Telling everyone the Democrats will protect our bathroom rights and that it didn't matter. Fast forward 5 years how's that working out for everyone?

The thing is the community has banged as hard as they can on their drum for allowing the entire umbrella use the bathroom of their choice with little to no vetting of their criminal history or their psychological state. How is anyone surprised that such a huge push back would eventually happen? The American people are clearly losing their taste for political correctness, and yet the political arm of the community still seems content on attempting to use it as their primary shield against criticism.

The answer to the bathroom/locker issue lies somewhere in the middle and not in unlimited unvetted access. I think for safety reasons alone transmen and women should use the bathroom of their transitioned gender, however these protections should not be carte blanche. These protections should only be extended to those who are medically transitioning and are living full time in the appropriate gender role. Demanding that identity alone supported by nothing else than the individuals word should be all one needs is kinda insane.

I agree that I have cannot come up with a solution about what criteria would be used that would not be overly exclusive to people. The junk rhetoric about I felt like a woman that day discredit us completely when we fight that for years but yet do you have any suggestions on what the criteria would be

[Guest Lizzie McTrucker]

The answer to the bathroom/locker issue lies somewhere in the middle and not in unlimited unvetted access. I think for safety reasons alone transmen and women should use the bathroom of their transitioned gender, however these protections should not be carte blanche. These protections should only be extended to those who are medically transitioning and are living full time in the appropriate gender role. Demanding that identity alone supported by nothing else than the individuals word should be all one needs is kinda insane.

Law enforcement are going to need some kind of actual proof that the person in question has a right to use gender-segregated facilities. Just going by someone's declaration is the loophole pervs exploit every time, so there should be some kind of proof we should be able to show them that cannot be forged.

I'm not sure how that would work for someone who is living full time prior to HRT, though. Maybe "medically transitioning and/or living full time in the appropriate gender"? Although I don't believe there are many areas of the country that would require RLE before HRT, so maybe that's more of a matter of adhering to the standards of care that have already been laid out?

[tracy_j]

The answer to the bathroom/locker issue lies somewhere in the middle and not in unlimited unvetted access. I think for safety reasons alone transmen and women should use the bathroom of their transitioned gender, however these protections should not be carte blanche. These protections should only be extended to those who are medically transitioning and are living full time in the appropriate gender role. Demanding that identity alone supported by nothing else than the individuals word should be all one needs is kinda insane.

I think we are in danger of overthinking the subject or even getting towards infighting.

There are many of us on Lauras, including me, who are not medically transitioning and although for me not living 100% of the time in the transitioned gender it does amount to the majority of the time.

Believe me I do get bathroom issues. They occur when I am dressed somewhat androgyne and use the men's bathroom. Although nothing bad has happened, if I were of a sensitive nature, it would be very stressful. In comparison using the womens bathroom generally gets no reaction whatsoever. I have even had funny looks using the unisex facilities (in the case it happened it was from a person in a wheelchair as these places are usually predominantly for them).

It isn't clear cut and I don't think there is a single answer

Tracy

[Drea]

Law enforcement are going to need some kind of actual proof that the person in question has a right to use gender-segregated facilities. Just going by someone's declaration is the loophole pervs exploit every time, so there should be some kind of proof we should be able to show them that cannot be forged.

According to the advocates that "loophole" is zero risk there has never been a documented case of a trans woman doing anything inappropriate in a women's restroom or locker room. That typical statement "no trans person" side steps the loophole. Is it an intentional sidestep or is he complete blind ignorance. I tend to believe it to be the former rather than latter. The statement is false in any regards because, as Sarah reminds us, Colleen Francis was unequivocally part of the umbrella and not some fundi Christian playing a game.

I consider the forged documents an non-issue. Sure it is a potential issue, but it doesn't invalidate merit of having some documentation requirement. The logic some have used (not you lizzie) that the a document could be forge therefor there should be no documentation requirement is sort of like saying because something can be shoplifted, they should all be made free.