"Hateful foreign ideologies" are not the problem

[Mayo]

In his speech at the RNC tonight, Trump said

"Only weeks ago, in Orlando, Florida, 49 wonderful Americans were savagely murdered by an Islamic terrorist. This time, the terrorist targeted LGBTQ community. No good. And we're going to stop it. As your president, I will do everything in my power to protect our LGBTQ citizens from the violence and oppression of a hateful foreign ideology."

So bombing people in other countries is the answer? Not putting a halt to attempts to repeal anti-discrimination legislation in the US?

I guess he's trying to score points with the LGBTQ community by saying something that sounds nice but which actually says nothing at all that is specific to LGBTQ Americans and in no way addresses the general Republican preoccupation with trying to roll back protections for LGBTQ people (while choosng Pence as his running mate tacitly endorses it).

No surprises here, I suppose.

[Guest]

He's our out of touch presidential candidate. Being elected, he will fully fill the role of global embarrassment! Evan Meecham was a great car dealer, but a horrible Arizona governor! He was removed from office, still maintaining the far right religious vote.

With all the pictures and posters of Trump's creepy looks and poses, he is someone I would want to protect my children from. Our current President gets the job done with poise and dignity. Donald leads with his rear grommet. I wonder how charmed the world will be with that smell. No President in my lifetime has ever looked so crass and offensive. I no longer wave a flag that stands for self righteousness and intolerance. You're a sad example Donald.

[Charlize]

I am embarrassed as an American that he got this far. The world must be rightfully worried when this kind of crass power hungry idiot gets his finger next to the button that ends human life.

Hugs,

Charlize

[Mia]

If we're going by just this quote (I haven't heard whatever speech this is a part of), he didn't say anything about bombing anyone. Also, while the Orlando shooting may have involved more factors than just Islamic beliefs (though that certainly was a factor), I agree that Islam is a toxic idealogy, to be blunt. For the record, I'm aware that not everyone who is Muslim follows the religion to that extent which is why there are a portion of good Muslims out there (especially in the US), but when I think about how Sharia Law motivates people to oppress, kill, and torture others in Muslim countries around the world, not to mention the issues that Europe is having with Muslim immigrants, I can understand where Trump is coming from. I have nothing against Muslims, but I have a problem with what the belief system motivates people to do and the hateful beliefs that it perpetuates. And I don't like how people are given a free pass because people don't want to sound "Islamophobic". People should be able to practice whatever religion they want to, but when it's relevant, we should call a spade a spade.

[Guest LesleyAnne]

Mayo.......

You just said what I call "hitting the nail on the head!!"

Excellent observation of peeling away the pretty shell to reveal the rotten fruit!

Peace and Love

LesleyAnne

[Briana]

I generally vote republican, but... I'm fiscally conservative but socially more liberal. I try to vote for the best person to do the job. But Trump...WOW! Like you Charlize, I'm embarrassed and I just can't believe we've gotten to the place we're at. From my perspective it's no better on the other side. Just crazy in a different way. Ugh!

Mia, you do make a good point when it comes to various religions driving oppression and hateful ideologies; especially towards women. Unfortunately, it's there with most religions including Christianity, not just Islam. I was very involved in church (went from Catholic* to So. Baptist) in my HS years but over time, I realized that most viewed me as some kind of "freak" and avoided me/excluded me, or they felt pity and the need to "pray the gay away"...even though I wasn't gay. LOL Both my spouse & I tend to avoid church & religion these days because of the narrow mindedness and sometime downright hate showing through.

*(Left Catholicism due to a "near miss".)

[Mayo]

If we're going by just this quote (I haven't heard whatever speech this is a part of), he didn't say anything about bombing anyone. Also, while the Orlando shooting may have involved more factors than just Islamic beliefs (though that certainly was a factor), I agree that Islam is a toxic idealogy, to be blunt. For the record, I'm aware that not everyone who is Muslim follows the religion to that extent which is why there are a portion of good Muslims out there (especially in the US), but when I think about how Sharia Law motivates people to oppress, kill, and torture others in Muslim countries around the world, not to mention the issues that Europe is having with Muslim immigrants, I can understand where Trump is coming from. I have nothing against Muslims, but I have a problem with what the belief system motivates people to do and the hateful beliefs that it perpetuates. And I don't like how people are given a free pass because people don't want to sound "Islamophobic". People should be able to practice whatever religion they want to, but when it's relevant, we should call a spade a spade.

I was taking issue with his implication that LGBTQ rights would be in any way advanced by (specifically) fighting Islam. One of his 'responses' was "destroying ISIS and stamping out Islamic terrorism and doing it now", which means increased US military action abroad. This in turn means more civilian deaths and social breakdown due to destruction of infrastructure, resulting in increased anti-American sentiment and greater terrorist activity in the countries the US bombs. You don't win the hearts and minds of people by interfering in their country's affairs for your own geopolitical interests (as the US has a habit of doing) and most certainly not by carpet-bombing them.

I'm going to take issue with your characterization of Islam as a 'toxic ideology' - I don't think it's any more toxic than Judaism or Christianity. The latter certainly has a long history of torture, war and oppression and has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of people over the last 2000 years. Hardly a peaceful religion - at least not as it has been practiced (people throughout history have, of course, been notorious for not practicing what they preach). Islam, in contrast, had a relatively short period of 'empire-building' and wasn't responsible for anything on the scale of, oh, say, enslaving and nearly wiping out the indigenous population of the Americas.

If you want to take issue with Islam for 'regressive' practices such as its attitude toward women, I suggest you take a look at the prohibitions spelled out in the book of Leviticus and in Orthodox Judaism. Consider also some of the more extreme Christian sects like the Quiverfull movement.

As far as Sharia law is concerned, I'll point out that Western law has been influenced by Christianity for the last 1500 years and it's only recently that things like marriage as one man and one woman are being overturned. Religion and law continue to be intertwined in the US, and I'd argue that bathroom bills are the Christian version of Sharia - an attempt to inject religious principles into law - and something you should be more concerned about. Islamic law is never going to have any significance in your life, so stop worrying about it. It's a right wing scare tactic along the lines of 'Obama is coming to take away your guns' intended to stir up fears of the brown hordes from far countries.

Living in fear of 1.5 billion Moslems because a few people commit terrorist attacks is like never going outside because you might be struck by lightning, and tarring all of them with the same terrorist brush is no different than being paranoid about so-called Christians because of people like Timothy McVeigh. In the US, Muslims account for somewhere between 2% - 10% of terrorist attacks (even though they get the most play in the media). Depending on the time period in question, you may be more likely to be killed by a white Christian male or a five-year-old. The media promotes an Islamophobic narrative because looking at someone else's problems is much more pleasant than looking at your own, and fear sells newspapers and advertising. Trump and the Republicans push it because it reinforces their agendas of (white) Christian nationalism (persecuted moral Christians awash in a sea of savage heathens, domestically and internationally) and American exceptionalism (we're so great that everybody wants what we have or else wants to destroy it).

Islamophobia is a real thing, just like racism and sexism and homophobia and transphobia. Black people are not animals, women are not sluts, gays and trans people are not sexual predators, and Muslims are not terrorists.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I'm going to take issue with your characterization of Islam as a 'toxic ideology' - I don't think it's any more toxic than Judaism or Christianity. The latter certainly has a long history of torture, war and oppression and has resulted in the deaths of tens of millions of people over the last 2000 years. Hardly a peaceful religion - at least not as it has been practiced (people throughout history have, of course, been notorious for not practicing what they preach). Islam, in contrast, had a relatively short period of 'empire-building' and wasn't responsible for anything on the scale of, oh, say, enslaving and nearly wiping out the indigenous population of the Americas.

If you want to take issue with Islam for 'regressive' practices such as its attitude toward women, I suggest you take a look at the prohibitions spelled out in the book of Leviticus and in Orthodox Judaism. Consider also some of the more extreme Christian sects like the Quiverfull movement.

As far as Sharia law is concerned, I'll point out that Western law has been influenced by Christianity for the last 1500 years and it's only recently that things like marriage as one man and one woman are being overturned. Religion and law continue to be intertwined in the US, and I'd argue that bathroom bills are the Christian version of Sharia - an attempt to inject religious principles into law - and something you should be more concerned about. Islamic law is never going to have any significance in your life, so stop worrying about it. It's a right wing scare tactic along the lines of 'Obama is coming to take away your guns' intended to stir up fears of the brown hordes from far countries.

Living in fear of 1.5 billion Moslems because a few people commit terrorist attacks is like never going outside because you might be struck by lightning, and tarring all of them with the same terrorist brush is no different than being paranoid about so-called Christians because of people like Timothy McVeigh. In the US, Muslims account for somewhere between 2% - 10% of terrorist attacks (even though they get the most play in the media). Depending on the time period in question, you may be more likely to be killed by a white Christian male or a five-year-old. The media promotes an Islamophobic narrative because looking at someone else's problems is much more pleasant than looking at your own, and fear sells newspapers and advertising. Trump and the Republicans push it because it reinforces their agendas of (white) Christian nationalism (persecuted moral Christians awash in a sea of savage heathens, domestically and internationally) and American exceptionalism (we're so great that everybody wants what we have or else wants to destroy it).

Islamophobia is a real thing, just like racism and sexism and homophobia and transphobia. Black people are not animals, women are not sluts, gays and trans people are not sexual predators, and Muslims are not terrorists.

Okay lets talk about Sharia law and Islamic Countries for just a minute. From a human rights perspective alone, Islamic countries are some of the worst. Womens Rights? Practically non existent. Women are controlled by their fathers or their husbands. Women get stoned to death for the most ridiculous of reasons, and the list goes on.. Beheadings really happen... BEHEADINGS... This isn't something republicans just come up with to scare you. How about homosexuality? Its a crime punishable by death in nearly every Nation with a Islamic Government, Trans rights? What Trans rights? Only Iran has any kinds of protections for trans people, and it's TRANSWOMEN only.. Women are NOT allowed to "become men". If you transition to female you MUST only have sexual relationships with men. Again Homosexuality is punishable by death. If you honestly believe that Western law is worse than or equal to Sharia law then you simply haven't done your research.

Polls have shown the majority of even moderate muslims belive that Homosexuality is unacceptable, and furthermore that they believe the punishments prescribed by the Quran are the best possible actions to take.

You cannot silence opinions and views you do not like simply by screaming "racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and so on and so forth."

[Guest]

Trump is the same guy who said a few months ago that he could shoot someone in the street and still be elected President.. What's worse is that he is probably right.

LAura

[Mayo]

I'm not saying that Islam as a religion is perfect; in fact, as an atheist, I don't think that any religion is (but that's another discussion). There are a number of non-Muslim countries where homosexuality is illegal to varying degrees - in India, for example, a predominantly Hindu country, it is still a 'crime against nature' (a restriction that was instituted by the [Christian] British, I might add) and transgender people have only recently attained legal rights there (though the hijras have long existed openly, and were also criminalized by the British occupiers). In the US, sodomy was a felony until 1962, and those laws weren't ruled unconstitutional until 2003 (they are apparently still on the books in several states). I have no doubt that Christianity had a lot to do with passing those laws in the first place, and we've seen firsthand recently how religious conservatives are targeting trans people. While we're talking about rights in a supposedly 'Christian' country, Native American voting rights were restricted until 1957 and blacks until 1965. Oh, and the US, by the way, has executed almost 1400 people in the last three decades and has the most people in prison per capita in the entire world.

Speaking of polls, I did a quick search and found a recent one saying 52% of British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal. I found another that said 54% of American Christians think homosexuality should be accepted by society - implying that 46% think it should be discouraged. And if you want to point at scriptures, it's possible to find any number of barbaric penalties for various things in the same bible that Christians proclaim as the basis for a religion of love, so don't judge a people solely by a literal reading of their holy book.

My point is that you're condemning 1.6 billion people by the actions of a few in more hard-line countries, or for the actions of an even smaller number of extremists. Should we judge all Christians by the actions of the Russian government toward gays, or of Kim Davis or Mike Pence in the US? You're also judging, in some cases, on the basis of actions that were illegal in your own country as recently as a few decades ago and on the basis of some that still continue to this day in the US. Islam is not perfect, but neither is the US - you just have different flaws that are, in some ways, no less egregious (oh, and I certainly don't exclude Canada from these criticisms).

I am usually careful to confine my criticisms of Christianity (e.g. see above) to 'right wing extremists' and not to claim that every single Christian in the country is motivated to turn the US into a white supremacist theocracy where being LGBTQ is punishable by imprisonment or death. Similarly, I acknowledge that terrorism (motivated by any ideology) is abhorrent and does not represent the views of moderate Christians, Muslims, whites, blacks, latinos, jews, students, environmentalists or animal-rights activists (to name a few of the groups that have engaged in domestic terrorism in America over the last 50 years). I suppose I am trying to encourage a more nuanced attitude, rather than the sort of knee-jerk, black-and-white, exclusionary rhetoric of the "all X are Y" variety, because such is almost never the case, and this is as true of Muslims and Islam as any other group or culture.

[Mayo]

Getting back to the original quote, my point was that Trump and the people pushing the Republicans even further to the right have no love for the LGBTQ community, and his reference to them had no purpose other than to give the impression that, by mentioning them at all he was somehow intending to do something for them, conveniently ignoring that at the same time states are trying to roll back anti-discrimination protections. In other words, his statement was a smoke-and-mirrors bit of political misdirection that introduced LGBTQ only to immediately forget about them again. He could just as easily have said "I will do everything in my power to protect our latino citizens from the violence and oppression of a hateful foreign ideology" in an attempt to woo hispanic voters and it would have made just as much sense. That's what irked me about the comment in the first place.