Confusion on attraction vs. envy

[Emma1991]

I made a post addressing my sexuality before, but I am still confused about this whole attraction vs. envy predicament. Could have my attraction to women really just been envy? It's possible, but it doesn't seem entirely likely. I had an obsession with women from my early teens, spending countless hours online looking at photos of attractive women, had explicit sexual fantasies about them , and as I got older and the women around me bodies' matured and developed in womanly looking bodies, I began having thoughts about them as well, as well as many, many crushes, some of which were quite intense. I wanted to do things to them for real and the thought of it was pleasing. I would also experience daydreams about many of these women, some erotic, some romantic, some both. As I got into my early 20s, I discovered that gender "kink", which later turned out to be much more, and some of the women I knew in real life became subjects in my fantasies. To add to this, I had made many female friends in college as well, due to us being part of a student organization together. I would imagine myself looking like some of them, as well as being with others I knew in lesbian situations, as far the sexual component goes. Non-sexual fantasies about women were also a big sign, but I will get more to that later. I also had a generic, faceless straight girl fantasy sometimes as well, which was mentioned in earlier post.

My biggest question is could have this burning desire and attraction really all been envy? It's so confusing, and it's also kind of saddening that people I felt so passionately about might not have really been something i was attracted to at all. Ever since mid-January, when that chaser from another site made that comment, it's all seemed to change and become a consistent source of stress and worry on my mind. These last few months have been difficult for me as a result.

[MicahKj]

Why can't it be both? Attraction and envy aren't opposing traits. People are often attracted to traits they find appealing and might want for themselves. For example, people smile in photographs to look more attractive because happiness is a desired trait. Confidence is considered an attractive quality partially because most people wish they were confident. Sometimes this is related to envy, but it's just as likely to be admiration or respect. Wanting something others have or finding them attractive for having it doesn't make your feelings wrong or invalid. 

 

It's easier to cut people off from feeling like they have the right to elaborate or just carry on by asserting that people all have to be "black and white"/"one or the other" on any given topic, but the human mind honestly doesn't work that way. There is no mental limit that forces all feelings on one matter cooperate with like thoughts or cancel out opposites.

But on the other hand, it's very possible to knock someone else's confidence off balance just by phrasing something right and aiming it at a particularly close subject. If a person says something to you that undermines your sense of identity, you really ought to be looking at whether they have anything to gain from doing this, or if they might think that they do. 

[Jani]

It certainly can be envy.  I had always envied women but I'm attracted to them as well.  Why not both?

Jani   

[Emma1991]

Honestly, I think it is both. Right now, my attraction to women is just buried under a mountain of envy. It's not just women I am enjoying less now, but everything else, too. This is pushing me to try to transition as soon as possible. I have held it off for a long time due to worries about my family's reactions.

[DenimAndLace]

This is highly anecdotal and wrought with my personal theories BUT:

If a person was AMAB and they are indeed transgender, they then have the "wrong" hormones (testosterone) coursing through their body.  Testosterone is, at least for me, flat out poison!!!  I hated my sex drive, what it did to my body and combined what society was telling me I should feel and do according to my birth sex, I was utterly confused for the first half of my life.  Once I got on HRT, and my sex drive was virtually eliminated, I had a clear mind to sort out my sexuality.  I wouldn't say envy and attraction cannot go together but one would want to parse those out before getting to the point of no return in transition.  If one who is AMAB simply envies and fantasizes about having a female body but doesn't have a feminine spirit, I suspect they could easily end up regretting transition.  And I suspect there in lies the small percentage of people do regret transition.

[VickySGV]

One of my realizations over the last 10 years or so is that attraction and envy can exist for the same person in any combination over time and the two fluctuate the longer I know the person, or even just occasionally see them.  Both usually are present for a single person whom I have gotten to know even a little bit, but only to people whom I know, or relate to some other way.  It is a whirlwind of things, but it has calmed down a bit over time and is no longer bothersome really.  It was a major thing in my early days, but now that I am content as myself, the Envy issue rarely pops up, but it has taken me to become comfortable in my own skin to get it to calm down.

[jae bear]

Hi Emma,

  I can completely understand why the two of these things seems diametrically opposed, but honestly I think they belong together, as I too am attracted to the very thing I envy although sometimes in a little different manner. While I am attracted to bigger women and all their curves, I find myself oddly envying slim little Hardbodies that would never occupy my lustful mind. At the end of the day I satisfy myself with the knowledge that I am just a lesbian and that both envy and attraction can live in the same mind at the same time for the same purpose.

Hugs,

Jae

[jae bear]

 I’ve been giving my last post quite a bit of thought since I wrote it, and I think I have a little more info to shed some light inside my dark little mind. I am starting to think the only reason that I envy Slim busty girls at all (even though I’m not personally attracted to them) is because I think that will be the only thing I can manage for my own shape. Since I don’t have any curves of my own (so sad) and only the figure my mama gave me, just happens to have no rear end slim legs wirh a rather large top, that’s probably why I keep looking at girls that are that body shape and envying them... Just some stray thoughts I wanted to string together since I’ve been thinking about it so much, I also welcome anyone’s idea on this as I’m only just realizing some of these things myself. I must say, that if I thought for one second I could get those curves with implants, and I do know they exist, and they happened to be within my reach both physically and monetarily, I would definitely go for it. However the results I have seen here or there online don’t exactly impress me all that much, but I suppose someday I will want to look seriously at it if I thought that I could have a better shape, but then again I think I’m dipping way too much into the CIS gender beauty trap arena, I really don’t want to get into serious body modification for the sake of beauty, my main goal really is just to be myself, and be as feminine as possible with what I’ve got...

Hugs,

Jae

[BrandiBri]

On 4/6/2018 at 3:09 AM, jae bear said:

I too am attracted to the very thing I envy although sometimes in a little different manner.

I agree that attraction and envy can and sometimes go hand in hand. My attraction towards women has changed since I began transitioning. My attraction is taking curves that I never saw coming. The other day I saw a 30 something tv celeb on a talk show and  said "Oh, he's cute! Boy, was I shocked! I always thought I am a lesbian, but now I wonder...  Before, even before getting married, I looked at what women were wearing more than the women themselves. Now I find my attraction is more focused on finding female friends to share coffee and donuts while chit-chatting about girl things.

Do I envy them? You bet! They don't have to worry about how to walk the "walk, talk the talk", or how to act girly. After all they were built that way. They don't have to spend hours on end shaving their entire bodies. And the shape!! I want that!! giggle

Like Jae said, I am focusing on just being me, but that will never stop the envy.

btw, I wonder what surprises await me (and do I want to know?! tee hee)

 

Hugs,

Brandi

 

[Cyndee]

I've always had an intense interest in females, and it has evolved over the years. My sexual attraction has always been toward females. I finally got to the point where I simply admitted to myself later in life that I am lesbian that happened to be born in a male body, nothing all that unusual about this, I used to giggle when I would hear this, but it's me. Transitioning and E did not change my attraction to females. Now later in life I live my dreams, I am free to do many of the things I've envied in the past. Part of the problem I believe was the stupid male socialization I was exposed to, all this guilt around liking female things, that was really nice to do away with and move beyond, my own personal evolution. Today I live and love the female social role, it's awesome to me. I enjoy interacting with other women as a woman, so nice.

 

C -

[Guest Rachel Gia]

Hi,

I will probably talk more on the envy thing in general but it with a trans twist and from the point of view from someone in AA who has listened to a lot of women sharing.

When I was about 6 months in AA I shared at a Big Book meeting that was all guys that I had this deep rooted shame that I was coming to an awareness that I resented women but I was also being made aware that women also, in general, resented other women, whether they perceived them as a threat, more pretty, smarter, charming etc. I talked about this for a little while and the resentment/envy turned to love, compassion and a desire to understand them.

Yes I did envy my perceptions of women's freedoms with dress etc. but as I went along I learned that people all have problems that we don't see.

For me envy was as much a poison as T was and I still have to work on it along with my lingering resentments.

I cannot control my brain but I believe I can reshape it through understanding, compassion  and ultimately Love.

When I envy someone I need to tell myself I am not seeing the whole picture, their insecurities, doubts, inner rage etc.

I have not talked about that resentment I had towards women for a long time but did so here just to show that I am human and imperfect.

One thing I like to say to remind myself of my own treasured uniqueness is;

 

"Nobody wants to be me and I don't want to be anybody else."

 

I can do 'me' pretty good but the other,,,,,,I dunno?

 

Rachel