How Do I know if I feel Like a Man?

[EliAtkins]

So I'm at a point in my journey where I'm in need of some guidance.  For the past few years I've been I've been identifying myself as gender-fluid, but as I continue to explore my identity and how I feel about my body, I find myself reaching a point where I'm not sure this identity fits me anymore.  The trouble is, I'm not entirely sure about a few concepts so I wanted to get some other perspectives on it.

 

Okay, backstory time:

 

I was born a woman.  I've always been rather masculine and have always just considered myself a tomboy.  Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed experimenting with makeup and wearing dresses, but in general it's never really been my thing.  I was lucky enough that my mom is a tomboy as well so she allowed me to play with what would have typically been considered 'boy toys' like legos, toy tools, and even had a microscope! 

 

The dysphoria started when I was about 8 or 9 when my mom started making me wear a bra cause my breasts were already noticeably growing.  I never wanted breasts and having them has always felt wrong to me, so much so that at one point when I was in college, I remember seeing a news story about a young woman who chose to have a double mastectomy as part of her battle with breast cancer.  I'm not saying that I want cancer or that I want to be sick in any way, but in that moment I was wishing for breast cancer so I'd have a reason to get rid of my breasts.

 

In addition to this, I've always been really bothered by being called a girl.  It always felt a bit like an insult and reminders that I'm a woman have always been very jarring for me, like when men call me pretty or have people tell me I'm good at [insert various tasks/actions here] for a girl.  I've known for most of my life that I'm not female.  I'm just not a feminine person (except possibly for my love of romcoms, haha) and I'm okay with that!

 

Now I know what you're probably thinking...  I just said I've been identifying as gender-fluid and now I'm saying there's no part of me that's a woman except this body I was born with.  Yes, I know it probably doesn't make much sense, but a lot of the reason I have been thinking of myself as gender-fluid is because I still dress and present myself as a woman.  I've always been curious about what it was like to be a man, but my breasts are massive so I am not sure I'd be able to pass for a man as long as I have them.

 

I feel like I'm sort of stuck at a crossroad trying to figure out who and what I am.  Since I know I'm not a woman, I keep finding myself asking the question, am I a man?  I certainly don't expect anyone else to be able to give me this answer outright, but I'm hoping that maybe some of the people here can offer some sort of guidance as to where to go from here.  I have considered the possibility of being agendered, but in a society that really only recognizes men and women, that sort of leaves me in the same spot.  If I don't want society to see me as a woman, then do I want society to see and treat me as a man?  For all intents and purposes, I feel like that is no different than asking myself if I am a man.

 

I've been doing my research and reading lots of stories about how people just seem to know that they're a man or a woman, despite their bodies not matching their inner feelings.  When I try and ask myself whether or not I feel like a man, the answer always seems about as clear as mud.  How does a person know whether or not they are a man?  A lot of the quizzes I've taken online tend to ask a lot of questions as to whether I want to dress like a man or if I desire facial hair.  I even got that question when I went to a transgender support group.  Is wanting to be a man summed up by simply wanting to dress and look like a man?

 

I admit that I've always been a bit curious about what I'd look like dressed as a man or been jealous of how men's clothes is sized by actual standard measurements and not the generic S, M, L that seems to be different from store to store like women's clothes.  However, I can't say that I'm dying to wear men's clothes.  If I had, I'd probably have purchased and worn them by now.  I've worn enough masculine looking clothes and felt at ease in them that I feel like I could probably dress in men's clothes without feeling any more fake than I do dressed as a woman (I've never actually attempted dressing as a man so I don't know for sure how I'd feel about looking like a man, but I've been slowly trying to make my appearance more masculine and I've been pretty comfortable with it so far).  Is that enough to say I feel like a man?

 

Or is it something deeper than that?  I know I've always felt like I tend to think more like a man than a woman (I've done plenty of online tests for fun that have all agreed) and I've always felt like I've been able to relate to men easier than I am with women.  Over the years I've learned how to connect with women, but that is primarily a learned skill and one I've spent years working on.  Even as a child, I preferred spending time with my guy friends than with my girl friends.  The problem I kept running into was them treating me like a girl (quite a few of them didn't know what to think about me or how to relate to me) when I just wanted to be treated like one of them.  Is this what it feels like to be a man?

 

I've tried a few of the thought experiments I've come across while researching, particularly the one about telling myself out loud that I am a man and asking myself if there was a magic pill that could make me a man, would I take it?  I honestly don't feel like I had enough of a reaction to be helpful.

 

Anyway, I'd really love to hear other perspectives and opinions on this.  I have been turning this over in my head for a while and I feel like I've arrived at the point where I can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Thanks,

Eli

[Cyndee]

Hi Eli, and welcome to Trans Pulse forums

 

The problem becomes comparing yourself to gender stereotypes of either sex, why not encompass your own unique subset of both ? Try thinking AND instead of OR ? to use a logical analysis. You can be this AND that. We are the sum of our life experiences and that can encompass properties of both genders, and whether one is dominate over the other could simply be your expression preference and place of comfort. Last I checked the genders are not equal, but complimentary. This subject could get deep, so I'll stop there, but wanted to respond to you Eli, and encourage you to post away in our forums.

 

Hugs

 

Cyndee -

 

 

[EliAtkins]

Thanks Cyndee!  I appreciate the welcome and you taking time to respond.  However, I feel like I have been taking an AND approach already, but it's just not working for me since it's ultimately what brought me to where I am now.

[Susan R]

16 minutes ago, Cyndee said:

whether one is dominate over the other could simply be your expression preference and place of comfort. Last I checked the genders are not equal, but complimentary.

Hello Eli, I think Cyndee explained this well.  The dominant preferences are just an expression of ourselves.  Some are learned and others are incorporated through chance or circumstance.  Early on, societal pressures tell us "if you're this gender you must like this or that". This affects our interests, attire, jobs, responsibilities, friends and the list goes on.  There isn't a single individual here that is identical stereotypical male and female traits.  We all share some but not all.  Imho, it does not define our gender identity but a possible indicator of who we might best relate to...whether it be male or female

Since I started transitioning, I've lost some interest in a few stereotypical male traits and have started enjoying a few more stereotypical female traits.  My focus has changed slightly to what I find interesting and enjoyable.  Through it all, my gender identity has not changed in any way.

 

14 minutes ago, EliAtkins said:

However, I feel like I have been taking an AND approach already, but it's just not working for me

The AND approach may not be working because you may feel more male than female or possibly the opposite is true on other occasions.  No one is all male or all female in the stereotypical sense of the word, imho.  If you're thinking of transitioning, it's a big step and feelings can get in the way of finding your true self.  You'll have to look very deep to get any real answers.  If you need to sort this all out, I recommend working with a good counselor specializing in gender issues as a first step.

 

Susan R?

[EliAtkins]

Susan, thank you for your words.  I think you helped me understand what Cyndee was trying to say.  I don't necessarily feel like I'm trying to compare myself to stereotypes.  I guess I'm at a point where I want to do the deep work, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it.

 

I feel like I'm living a lie to keep living as a woman, but saying that I am more male than female....  I don't know.  I feel like that is somehow different than saying I want to be a man.  I'm not even looking ahead to transitioning for the moment.  I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around everything and make sense of what I'm feeling.

 

Unfortunately, due to circumstances in my life right now, working with a counselor is just not an option. 

[DeeDee]

5 hours ago, EliAtkins said:

I guess I'm just trying to wrap my head around everything and make sense of what I'm feeling.

Pleased to meet you Eli, it seems to me from my reading that mtf or ftm both ask many of the same big picture questions about gender but looking in different directions, though there is nothing wrong with being anywhere between the two views either.

I will say that being a man is definitely more than just clothes and facial hair, in the same way that being a woman is more than just breasts and makeup.

 

These are just outward physical signs that we fixate on because they allow us to fit in quickly with the social group we want to identify as. Like boys copying their dads shaving or girls trying on their mums makeup and shoes.

 

Although it can be hard, especially if your body is one of the things that makes you uncomfortable, I would suggest you try not to put the emphasis on the physical. Change that bit last.

 

I get the woods from the trees part though, honestly, the questions are tough and exhausting - if I hadn't felt like a fraud and a failure as a man for so long I do not know if I would be quite as open to accepting that regardless of my reflection perhaps I'm not one on the inside and be at the point of trying to decide what I need to do about it.

 

Take heart from the support of the people here, they are all awesome and really know their stuff, and then when you can get to see a counsellor and see if that helps.  

[EliAtkins]

DeeDee, thanks for the encouragement!  I think this place is amazing and I've been doing my best to read through different topics to become more knowledgeable in general.

 

It'll be probably 6 months to a year before I'll really be able to work with a counselor.  I'm actually currently in grad school studying to become a counselor and gender issues is one of the focus areas I'd like to work in.  I've read a lot of journal articles in particular on topics of gender and sexuality, but they're written from very different perspectives than those that write about going through it.  In the next 6 months or so I will be working to secure an internship and as with most professions it is a small community, I don't want this to jeopardize getting an internship spot.  I don't expect any of them to discuss me with others if I were to attend counseling, but given my focus areas, I could potentially end up interviewing with the counselor I'm working with and I don't want to risk that.

 

I know that wherever I end up with any of this, it's going to be a long journey and it's hard because I don't know where I'm going or how to get there so support is always appreciated!

[JustKatie]

For me (so this may not apply to you) is "how do I know I'm attracted to women?" I just know 

[EliAtkins]

I know I am definitely not a butch lesbian.  While I do find women attractive, I am not attracted to them in a sexual way.  Masculine women who are not butch lesbians often get pigeonholed into the butch lesbian category.  I don't believe there is anything wrong with being a butch lesbian, but I also know it is not who I am.

 

In the past month I've started unpacking memories, feelings and other stuff that I've repressed over the years and I've figured out I'm definitely masculine leaning, but I'm not sure yet what this means for me or where I'm going with it.

 

As part of my process of self examination, I've been watching a lot of youtube videos made by transmen and a lot of what they're saying really resonates with me to the point where I almost could be the one saying it.  I don't even remember which video it was that I was watching, but I started having all of these epiphany moments where A LOT of stuff just clicked into place.  I still have a long journey of discovery ahead of me, but I feel like I've made a lot of progress in a month's time since I initially posted this topic.

[Vinter]

4 hours ago, EliAtkins said:

I know I am definitely not a butch lesbian.  While I do find women attractive, I am not attracted to them in a sexual way.  Masculine women who are not butch lesbians often get pigeonholed into the butch lesbian category.  I don't believe there is anything wrong with being a butch lesbian, but I also know it is not who I am.

Si you just have masculine traits and gender dysphoria. Just having masculine traits as a female isn't really an issus, the issue is your dysphoria obviously. 

 

In order for you to become happy you need to become happy with your current body or change your body. 

 

You mentioned earlier you had big breasts, that's something you should view as something positive and be happy about.

 

As a male i struggle to understand why anyone would want to transition to my gender in the current society. Well you could try to transition socially and find out yourself. 

[EliAtkins]

I'm on the opposite side of the fence.  It's hard for me to understand why someone with male privilege (something I've been fighting my entire life trying to get) would want to become a woman.

 

Also, I know it wasn't intended this way, but saying I should be happy about my large breasts (they're actually too large and are causing other issues besides just dyphoria) is actually kind of triggering for me.  I've had people telling me that for most of my life.  I know it's not meant to be offensive, but I can't stand having them.  I try and laugh it off, usually making some joke about how I'd be happy to cut them off and give them to whoever wants them.  I think it's highly likely that I will need top surgery at some point to be happy with my body.

 

Right now, I'm just trying to explore who I am and figure out what I need to be happy.  I hesitate to even rush transitioning socially because I want to be as sure as I can be so I'm just taking it slow and changing my clothing/hair little by little.

[SugarMagnolia]

Just now, EliAtkins said:

I'm on the opposite side of the fence.  It's hard for me to understand why someone with male privilege (something I've been fighting my entire life trying to get) would want to become a woman.

The answer's simple: it's because it's not about gaining or losing privilege. It's about living authentically as the person you feel yourself to be. That's bigger than anything.

 

Just now, EliAtkins said:

I know it's not meant to be offensive, but I can't stand having them.

I completely understand how that could be triggering for you, Eli. We can have the best, greatest parts in the world, but if they don't feel right to us...a part of us...then it's very difficult. 

Eli, have you found a gender therapist? If not, that might be a great step to take in order to get some help in navigating all of this. And you're right that small steps are the way to go. Just take your time and see how you feel with each change or experiment. If it feels right then continue and if it doesn't feel right to you then leave it. 

Regardless of where we end up exploring our identity is a wonderful thing. I wish you nothing but happiness during your journey. ❤️

 

 

[EliAtkins]

1 hour ago, SugarMagnolia said:

The answer's simple: it's because it's not about gaining or losing privilege. It's about living authentically as the person you feel yourself to be. That's bigger than anything.

 

 

I don't think my comment came out how I meant it to...sorry for that.  I was just trying to respond to Vinter's comment about not understanding and say I get it.  I imagine it's something we all sort of struggle to understand at some point....the desire of other trans individuals to be the gender we were assigned at birth and feel a disconnect with?  Maybe I'm wrong...  I don't know, just a thought. 

 

No, I haven't found a gender therapist yet.  Unfortunately, it won't be an option for me until at least the fall.

[SugarMagnolia]

Don't worry, @EliAtkins. I didn't take your comments in a bad way. There are as many trans experiences as there are trans people, so you're right, there will always be things we don't innately understand about other trans folks journeys. I totally get that!

[Beverly]

Don't worry so much about labels, Eli. The gender spectrum is quite wide and diverse from binary to everything in between. A lot of people get stuck in the "questioning" stage for any number of reasons. Just be who you are, find happiness, and get to a gender therapist when you can. Best wishes!

[EliAtkins]

@Beverly Thanks for the encouragement!  Honestly, I'm not even really thinking about labels at this point.  I'm just trying to explore myself and find out what I need to be happy.

[BananaPowered95]

Everyone feels the same but experiences it differently. There are cis-men who like makeup and have "feminine" mannerisms (Jefree Star, James Charles) and there are cis-women who dress butch but still consider themselves men/women. What makes a man anyways? 

Some people cope with dysphoria differently, there are those who only want to pass socially as the desired gender but dont want to submit themselves to surgery; those who have only dysphoria towards breasts/genitals and those who do top and bottom surgery. 

 

No one can really say what a man is (arent clothing and makeup non-binary? You could use feminine clothing and still feel confortable in a male skin!) so sometimes the best way is to ask yourself if you identify as the assigned gender at birth. Trying to experiment and see what makes you feel more comfortable in your skin! (look at me trying to sound smart ahah)

 

I relate a bit to you, i dont know who i truly am yet, but i dont feel like a woman. 

 

[EliAtkins]

@BananaPowered95  I've been experimenting with different things and just finding what feels comfortable.  I feel like I've come a long way in becoming comfortable with who I am since I first posted this and I still feel like I've a long way to go.  I know I'll get there, but it's still a work in progress and will be for a while.  I already knew that despite being afab, that I am not a woman.  That much was clear to me for a pretty long while.  Questioning this is more about figuring out who I am instead: whether I'd feel comfortable calling myself a transman or if I am some shade of non-binary.

 

 

[BananaPowered95]

If by pressing a botton you could wake up as a man would you do it? 

Would you you feel comfortable living as a masculine inclined female or does the thought of being seen as female feel non welcoming?

[EliAtkins]

Just now, BananaPowered95 said:

If by pressing a botton you could wake up as a man would you do it?

 

Some days yes and some days no.  Having studied psychology and counseling, I know how toxic society's current view of masculinity can be and there are days when I wonder if that is going to feel any better than where I am right now.  I also sometimes wonder if that is really the problem of if it's more the idea of going through the transition, not just physically, but the social ramifications that cause a lot of complicated feelings.  Just as a thought experiment and I changed the view from just waking up as a man, but rather if I could redo life as a man and the answer is definitely yes.

 

I've spent over 3 decades living as a masculine inclined female and I'm at this point because being seen as a female has always been something I truly hate. 

[Ned]

I will never treat women the way i was treated by men.

[tapeleg42]

On 2/20/2019 at 8:26 PM, EliAtkins said:

When I try and ask myself whether or not I feel like a man, the answer always seems about as clear as mud.  How does a person know whether or not they are a man?  A lot of the quizzes I've taken online tend to ask a lot of questions as to whether I want to dress like a man or if I desire facial hair.  I even got that question when I went to a transgender support group.  Is wanting to be a man summed up by simply wanting to dress and look like a man?

 

I admit that I've always been a bit curious about what I'd look like dressed as a man or been jealous of how men's clothes is sized by actual standard measurements and not the generic S, M, L that seems to be different from store to store like women's clothes.  However, I can't say that I'm dying to wear men's clothes.  If I had, I'd probably have purchased and worn them by now. 

 

Or is it something deeper than that?  I know I've always felt like I tend to think more like a man than a woman (I've done plenty of online tests for fun that have all agreed) and I've always felt like I've been able to relate to men easier than I am with women.  Over the years I've learned how to connect with women, but that is primarily a learned skill and one I've spent years working on.  Even as a child, I preferred spending time with my guy friends than with my girl friends.  The problem I kept running into was them treating me like a girl (quite a few of them didn't know what to think about me or how to relate to me) when I just wanted to be treated like one of them.  Is this what it feels like to be a man?

 

I've tried a few of the thought experiments I've come across while researching, particularly the one about telling myself out loud that I am a man and asking myself if there was a magic pill that could make me a man, would I take it?  I honestly don't feel like I had enough of a reaction to be helpful.

 

There's so much of this I relate to.  I currently identify as male, but I've always wondered what my life would be like if I had been born female.  Similar to you, it's always been easier to connect with women than with men, and while I have plenty of guy friends, it's harder for me to make friends with them than with girls. I'm jealous of the way women are able to accessorize their clothing and hair, and I've always wanted to join in.  And while I don't feel, for lack of a better word, "uncomfortable" as a male, if I was given a magic pill that would make me a woman I'd take it.

 

On 3/25/2019 at 11:40 PM, EliAtkins said:

In the past month I've started unpacking memories, feelings and other stuff that I've repressed over the years and I've figured out I'm definitely masculine leaning, but I'm not sure yet what this means for me or where I'm going with it.

Exactly.  As I've come to consider all this as a serious possibility, I've been remembering more and more time throughout my childhood where I was drawn to stories that dealt with gender fluidity, such as Ozma from the Oz books.  Like you, I'm not sure what this all means in the long term.  Even if you're not up to telling anyone yet (and believe me I totally get that) I suggest start keeping a private journal where you can write all these thoughts down, because having them all bunched up in your mind with no organization will drive you crazy.  Once I started to question myself I bought a new journal for this reason, and writing down every passing thought and question I have is a great relief.  I've even been signing the entries with my chosen female name to see how it feels, and for me it feels good.

 

I hope to read more from you when you find more answers!