Conditional acceptance hurts

[Vidanjali]

I keep trying to be okay with just being in touch with how I feel about my gender and sexuality. I keep trying to justify that my desired gender expression is not that important and that what really matters is how I conduct myself with regard to spiritual advancement (in which context the body is merely material and perishable - trivial). I was talking with a trans friend whom I've known for about 30 years. She pointed out that my relationship with my spouse is in part is based on self-denial. I can't be as queer as I really am, and he can't engage in the cishet relationship dynamics he desires. Neither of us is wrong, and it's not always easy, but it's not always hard either - our relationship is a treasure to both of us. But, anytime I mess up something however mundane, everything unravels. He goes into this passive aggressive seething, I struggle deeply with feeling like a failure and worthless, and when he finally comes out of it, he desires some grand make up intimacy that I do not feel safe or comfortable with. All my life I've felt unacceptable and like a monster who was born fundamentally unlovable. I have come a long way and I have tons of friends who love me and a spouse whom I usually feel loved by. But, I'm constantly second guessing myself and vigilant lest I mess up. It comes down to a lack of trust - trust that love is real. I feel awful today. Last night I made a minor mess up with dinner plans and the result is he feels I don't care about his needs at all. I had the pink cloud experience when I first began to discover the nature of my queerness, but I realize that I have a ways to go to full self-acceptance. I thought having that self-awareness, I would be content to keep it to myself, but evidently that's not the case. I feel like a failure for not being content. Why this desire to express myself? Am I selfish? Is it worth rocking the boat? Days like today, I feel trapped. Thanks for listening. 

[Aggie1]

1 hour ago, Vidanjali said:

I have come a long way and I have tons of friends who love me and a spouse whom I usually feel loved by. But, I'm constantly second guessing myself and vigilant lest I mess up. It comes down to a lack of trust - trust that love is real. I feel awful today.

Love is real! You’re a lovely person. I love reading your posts. I love to read about your passion for butterflies for instance. You make a real connection with people. Trust me on that!

 

it sounds like your second guessing is driven in part by some contingent component in your spouse’s reactions. They have to own that, not you. You can’t be something you’re not to please someone else and still love yourself, if it’s making you unhappy. All of us are responsible for our own reactions. You can’t take ownership over someone else’s negative reaction especially if it’s a minor thing that would ordinarily be quickly overlooked, understood and forgiven. That’s unreasonable. Had your spouse considered therapy?

[Jackie C.]

That's not healthy sweetie. He needs to accept all of you. I utterly get where you're coming from, I've been there. I still have bouts of "I'm a screw-up," "Why doesn't she hate me," "I'm not good enough," etc... but we work through our problems without passive-aggressive nonsense and holding grudges. You are absolutely good enough and your boundaries absolutely matter. If your spouse doesn't accept that, that's on him.

 

It's ALWAYS worth rocking the boat. To make the relationship work, you both need to be happy with your partner. Once again, you're awesome. Don't let anybody (especially that nasty little voice in the back of your head) tell you otherwise.

 

Hugs!

[Vidanjali]

Thank you @AgnesBardsiedear. I feel blessed to have connection with you. I grew up in an environment in which I was constantly identified as "the problem". I definitely still have a lot of trauma and internalized scapegoatiness to work through, and I have decided to pursue finding a gender therapist because I obviously need more support & guidance. Although my spouse is a sensitive and generally kind and thoughtful person, I've felt at times his reactions are terribly disproportionate to the reality of the situation, and he sometimes seems to take advantage of my subconscious willingness to take on blame. He was in therapy for a couple years and it helped him a lot. That was several years ago, and actually motivated by an ultimatum I gave him earlier in our relationship. I can never be what he claims he wants. I tried and I felt like it was killing me. It took a long time and effort for him to understand that I did not deliberately deceive him by entering our relationship as a cishet presenting person because I didn't know myself and still believed that practiced performance would make perfect. What you say sounds true. This morning I asked myself, if I don't feel free to be myself, then who is it he loves when he says he loves me? Either he loves me or he doesn't. 

[Vidanjali]

@Jackie C. thank you. Your support means the world. I really need to hear those things. What's more, I really need to believe it. It seems that this episode was compounded by my chatting with the trans friend I mentioned in my post. Let's call that friend X. X has known my husband a bit longer than I have - they went to high school together and were roommates their first year of college. I met both of them their second year when I went to their college to visit another friend and wound up squatting there on and off. X has had a tumultuous life, to say the least. She and I bonded the instant we met - we're soul siblings. My husband does not accept she's trans and thinks it's just another phase she's going through. I thought my husband had accepted my being trans enby to some extent. When I came out to him as asexual, his first reaction was that of course I am and that explained a lot. When further I began to talk to him about my gender identity, he also was not surprised by anything I reported. (His emotional reaction is a different story.) A couple weeks ago I said something about being queer in front of some other queer friends and he got bent out of shape about it which really surprised me. (I shared this episode in the coffee thread.) He accused me and X of using fake queer identity to feel special. I told him I've always felt "special" which was painful for me, and that identifying as queer made me feel normal. I think his reaction to my messing up our original dinner plan last night (which was simply not ordering take out in a timely manner and instead cooking something) was compounded by my association with X that day. I just wish he'd be cool and open and love me - the real me without all this anger and melodrama. We're well into the afternoon and he's still being cold. I'm just trying to stay out of his way. It sucks. Thanks so much for listening. 

[Jackie C.]

1 hour ago, Vidanjali said:

He accused me and X of using fake queer identity to feel special.

 

I keep tripping over this bit. It shows a PROFOUND lack of understanding about how being trans works. Admittedly, my wife thought the same thing until she saw my absolute meltdown when I thought we wouldn't be able to come up with the money for GCS. It was... bad. I mean, "Let's not leave her alone this weekend," bad. Hopefully, he just needs a little time to get used to the idea and adjust, but he really needs to understand (and I mean understand) how profoundly this impacts out lives.

Of course part of it is our own damn fault. If we didn't try to hard to fit in in the beginning... but that's water under the bridge.

 

My point being that you need to be allowed to be as queer as you want to be. You need to be comfortable in your own skin and in your own relationship. Your husband should WANT his partner to be happy and comfortable, right? Not act like a spoiled child when he doesn't get what he wants. I'm incensed on your behalf.

 

Hugs!

[Vidanjali]

Thanks @Jackie C. I usually sing in the church choir on Sundays. I got myself to the church this morning (which, btw, is an actively queer affirming church...although I'm only out to one person there so far...), but as soon as one friend asked how I am, the floodgates opened up, so I wound up leaving - too emotional too sing and sit through the service. The last few weeks, the pastor has been emphasizing the true meaning of practicing compassion: to suffer with. So, I deeply appreciate your commiseration. It really does help me feel supported and a bit more empowered. 

[Vidanjali]

Update: The rest of yesterday I just stayed out of his way. I went to bed very early. I got up later in the evening to get a snack and by then he seemed in a better mood and was communicative. We talked. I told him we need to communicate openly regularly so that whatever is bothering him does not build up. He said he didn’t see the point of talking about things we’ve already discussed. I told him by regularly checking in with each other on how we feel, what we’re thinking, and how we’re interpreting the other’s behavior that we can live more harmoniously. I told him I’d rather you come right out and said “I’m feeling resentful of you right now” than to seethe and give me the silent treatment. Here’s what came out. He said with the revelations of the last couple years (my realizing I’m ace & trans enby), he feels he has no place in “my world”. (My thought on this is that if you’re in a relationship with a queer person, that you are in that world! I don’t think he was ready to hear that yet…) He hasn’t “forgiven” me for “taking away what I had originally offered”. That is, he resents me for presenting as a cishet woman only to later come out as a trans ace queer individual. (My perspective: I did not commit an offense and it hurts me to apologize for self-knowledge.) I asked him why he stays with me. Answer: Because you’re my family. Me: What does that mean? Him: I want to be involved in your life, to support you and make a life with you. I told him that I felt horrible all day, that I felt like he did not like me, that I hate feeling like I am a disappointment to him. I told him it hurts me to know he is hurt by me, and it’s frustrating because I didn’t “do” something; I am just being me. He finally apologized for upsetting me. It seems to come down to sex. All sexual interaction makes me feel unnatural, compromised, and dissociated from my body. Please, if you’re reading this refrain from making any suggestions on how I might “fix” my asexuality; it is my sexual orientation/identification and it is not broken, just like transness does not mean you’re broken. I think if I were sexual and trans he would not be so hurt because he has not objected to sexual activity with males in the past (which makes it peculiar that he has such a problem seeing how he fits into the “world of queer”). Where we left things is my request for him to check in with me about his feelings more frequently, and his request for me to make time to engage in some small measure of sexual intimacy that I am roughly able to tolerate but do not enjoy (I try to enjoy the fact that he feels fulfilled doing the thing, despite my repulsion – it is not easy.) There’s the added layer that he wants to enjoy my body as a “woman’s” body. So, I am dealing with sex repulsion plus dysphoria. He cannot fathom how uncomfortable that is. But, likewise I do not understand his innate desire for sexual intimacy. To me, intimacy is much more subtle and nuanced…and I wish he could see me as I really am which is not a woman.

 

How have others navigated issues involving the sexual part of the relationship with their partner if they were in a relationship when coming out as trans? I realize that is private and not easy to share about really without revealing TMI. But if anyone is willing to discuss in general terms, I’d be gratified to learn what that’s been like for you. I understand many trans people’s partners have balked at suddenly finding themselves in a queer relationship, and their reactions vary. What have been the biggest challenges? What breakthroughs, if any, did you encounter? Have you experienced dysphoria in the realm of sexuality? What specifically is the persistent proverbial elephant in the room, if there remains one? Thanks in advance for listening & for any willingness to share.

[Jackie C.]

In the beginning, my spouse was against the whole thing. She didn't want to see me as a woman. She thought it was, "a phase." That didn't change until she saw my breakdown when I thought we wouldn't be able to afford GCS. Since then, she's come around to the idea that I'm a woman. I'm happier. I'm easier to live with. I don't just lock myself in a room and try to escape all day.

 

Gosh, intimacy issues. OK. I am a very sexual creature. I was before I came out. I was before I transitioned. I still am now. My spouse is straight.

 

Even before I came out, our interactions in the bedroom were mostly about me giving her an orgasm, then finishing myself off later. That's mostly about a medical condition that she didn't want to treat.

Prior to my coming out she tried but... yeah.

Since I came out, she hasn't really touched me in the bedroom before or after my GCS. Before was about when she heard that some trans women don't like having their factory-issue genitals touched. I could NOT convince her otherwise. After that she was weirded out by the whole thing. I've basically been responsible for my own orgasms for years.

In the last six months or so she's started trying again (when she remembers, it's a sometimes thing) but... still... yeah.

 

So sexual intimacy? Not great. I crave it, but I'm not about to force it on anybody if they don't want it. That's just gross. You have to respect what your partner wants too, y'know?

 

Hugs!

[Kelly2509]

OK, this may get a little TMI...

 

My partner is basically asexual (she does not identify that way specifically, but she has her own understandable issues and it's been at least 8 years so I'm calling it what it is).  I came out to her as trans last year.  There were some agitated questions about what this meant for us (she's not gay, am I wanting to be with men, etc.) which from my end boiled down to "you didn't want anything to do with me before, how does this change anything?"  It seemed like a total non-factor.  Previously it killed me that there was no interest there before, but pre-transition I had no qualms about taking care of my own business so it wasn't ideal but it was manageable so I never pushed the issue even though I was incredibly frustrated by the situation.  Post-transition I find my needs are a little different (and not specifically sexual) and I just can't manage things like I used to (playing solitaire doesn't accomplish what I need now so it's kind of pointless) and I find it much harder to just deal with a marriage with no intimacy.  I'm not going to try to push her into anything she doesn't want to do so I'm just kind of stuck.  Not much has actually changed but now I always wonder if her lack of interest is made worse by me being trans.

 

So I guess this was a very long way of saying you're not alone in having a relationship that is complicated intimacy-wise.  Dealing with this stuff is hard so try not to beat yourself up too much over it.  I hope things work out for you

[Vidanjali]

Thanks so much for sharing @Jackie C. . I am certain my husband sees how much happier and more comfortable with myself I am since coming out. I wonder when he considers that, if it's always coupled with resentment. I hope in time he'll be able to stop seeing himself as a victim in our relationship. I don't mean to make him sound like a bad guy. He's really an exceptional person in many ways - I never considered sticking around with anyone else who had come into my life. I also feel it's gross to persist in asking for sexual activity with someone who doesn't want it. I kind of feel hijacked to some extent..."compromise" isn't a neat and tidy thing when it comes to sexual intimacy. Likewise, he continues to refer to me as his lady. It's very confusing. I'm going to take another stab at trying to find a gender therapist this week. I need help accessing my own power of agency. I need to figure out what I want, how to communicate to him what I want, and how to do so without feeling crippled by guilt. 

[Vidanjali]

@Kelly2509 thank you so much for sharing. I'm sorry you're in a frustrating situation. I appreciate your sympathy and kind wishes.

 

I mentioned previously that to me, intimacy is more subtle and nuanced. To elaborate a little, I find every shared experience with my husband to be intimate. I'm perhaps more "turned on" by shared sensual experience than the fully sexual person - just a hypothesis. By sensual, I don't mean touching or like...foreplay type stuff, but any shared experience of any of the senses - any moment of being present together with my partner has deep meaning for me. I'm also very physically affectionate. I understand intellectually (and empirically) that my definition of intimacy is far removed from that of a sexual person's. I have to deliberately remind myself that that is the case - that watching birds together or standing in the ocean together or eating something exquisite together or laughing really hard together is not nearly as satisfying as having sex for most people.

 

I hope we can all move towards finding more common ground with our respective partners. We all deserve to feel loved. I guess sometimes it's not in the way we may expect.

[Davie]

Thank you, @Vidanjali. You write so beautifully, of all "shared experiences of any of the senses."

You help me experience my own life more fully.

[Kelly2509]

8 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

@Kelly2509 thank you so much for sharing. I'm sorry you're in a frustrating situation. I appreciate your sympathy and kind wishes.

 

I mentioned previously that to me, intimacy is more subtle and nuanced. To elaborate a little, I find every shared experience with my husband to be intimate. I'm perhaps more "turned on" by shared sensual experience than the fully sexual person - just a hypothesis. By sensual, I don't mean touching or like...foreplay type stuff, but any shared experience of any of the senses - any moment of being present together with my partner has deep meaning for me. I'm also very physically affectionate. I understand intellectually (and empirically) that my definition of intimacy is far removed from that of a sexual person's. I have to deliberately remind myself that that is the case - that watching birds together or standing in the ocean together or eating something exquisite together or laughing really hard together is not nearly as satisfying as having sex for most people.

 

I hope we can all move towards finding more common ground with our respective partners. We all deserve to feel loved. I guess sometimes it's not in the way we may expect.

you voiced a lot of my issues that I wish I had the language to describe!   Your definition of intimacy is very much how mine has become post-coming out/HRT and it's what I hope my partner comes around to (again, she has her own baggage to work through) because those are the kinds of things I need now (and why it's not something to handle on my own).  Intimacy does not have to equal sex, which is something i know my partner struggles to separate.

 

Anyway, that description was beautiful and I hope your partner comes to appreciate those moments as much as you do.

[Vidanjali]

@Kelly2509 I'm gratified we could connect in this way. How wonderful it is to have community - we learn so much about ourselves from each other. 

[Vidanjali]

@Davie you move me by your sentiment. I'm blessed to be a part of your experience. 

[Heather Shay]

@Vidanjali and @Davie both of you articulte so beautifully and with so much passion - warms my heart to know both of you.

[Vidanjali]

The feeling is mutual @Shay. ❤️

[Vidanjali]

...More talks with my husband. This morning I mentioned something about my friend, X, whom I wrote about in my Sunday 1:40 pm post. After being much more open since late Sunday night, he suddenly got tense again. And I became very anxious. I did a few hours of work and then went to see him in his office (we're both working from home today). I asked him for a hug and told him I feel anxious. He asked why and I told him because he got tense when I mentioned X and that I thought his feelings about X are related to how he feels about me (that we're both affecting queer identity to feel special). He affirmed that he sees LGBT identity as a manifestation of mental illness. Yes, he said that. He said he believes queer identity is the result of unresolved issues from the past or previous lifetimes. He said he knows it sounds childish, but he feels LGBT took his wife away. I just listened and did not react. For the first time he said that if he can't get what he wants from me, then he'd like to look elsewhere, but he prefers not to have a poly lifestyle. He asked, "Are you my wife?" I told him it depends on how you define "wife". Tbh, I would prefer "partner" or "spouse", but I don't have the courage to assert that. I told him, you're my person I share everything with. I'm close to you in a way that's like no other and I haven't wanted anyone else. I feel like the pressure is on me to "blow up" our marriage or somehow be better "compliant". I asked him, If you could wish for things to be a certain way, what would you wish for. He said he'd wish things would be like they were when we first got married. I pointed out that I was very uncomfortable with myself when we first got married and had dissociative episodes any time we had sex. He replied by saying he wants a straight relationship. But, he also wants to support me and be with me. He said he'd never abandon me. I should add that I live with chronic illness and so he picks up the slack on a lot of stuff. He works very hard for our family and does not get/make much time for himself. I feel terrible. I'm going to call a therapist now... 

[Jackie C.]

1 hour ago, Vidanjali said:

I'm going to call a therapist now... 

 

That is an excellent idea, but I'd like to remind you that he's the one who dropped the bomb on you. He either wants you to comply with something that makes you feel terrible, or... well, I don't know how you feel about him going outside the marriage to fulfill his carnal desires. I know it would make me uncomfortable, but I'm not ace.

 

You are a lovely person. You do not deserve this. You deserve to be loved and supported by your spouse. No matter what. This conditional nonsense is just that: Nonsense.

 

Hugs!

[Kelly2509]

@Vidanjali I have a lot of strong feelings about that story, none of which are very constructive.  I really hope you two can work things out for your sakes, but don't let him make you the fall guy.  you don't deserve that kind of BS.

[Heather Shay]

2 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

...More talks with my husband. This morning I mentioned something about my friend, X, whom I wrote about in my Sunday 1:40 pm post. After being much more open since late Sunday night, he suddenly got tense again. And I became very anxious. I did a few hours of work and then went to see him in his office (we're both working from home today). I asked him for a hug and told him I feel anxious. He asked why and I told him because he got tense when I mentioned X and that I thought his feelings about X are related to how he feels about me (that we're both affecting queer identity to feel special). He affirmed that he sees LGBT identity as a manifestation of mental illness. Yes, he said that. He said he believes queer identity is the result of unresolved issues from the past or previous lifetimes. He said he knows it sounds childish, but he feels LGBT took his wife away. I just listened and did not react. For the first time he said that if he can't get what he wants from me, then he'd like to look elsewhere, but he prefers not to have a poly lifestyle. He asked, "Are you my wife?" I told him it depends on how you define "wife". Tbh, I would prefer "partner" or "spouse", but I don't have the courage to assert that. I told him, you're my person I share everything with. I'm close to you in a way that's like no other and I haven't wanted anyone else. I feel like the pressure is on me to "blow up" our marriage or somehow be better "compliant". I asked him, If you could wish for things to be a certain way, what would you wish for. He said he'd wish things would be like they were when we first got married. I pointed out that I was very uncomfortable with myself when we first got married and had dissociative episodes any time we had sex. He replied by saying he wants a straight relationship. But, he also wants to support me and be with me. He said he'd never abandon me. I should add that I live with chronic illness and so he picks up the slack on a lot of stuff. He works very hard for our family and does not get/make much time for himself. I feel terrible. I'm going to call a therapist now... 

 

[Heather Shay]

2 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

  I asked him, If you could wish for things to be a certain way, what would you wish for.  

I am having a similar situation in that my wife of 28 years is somewhat accepting but know I want to go further and has yet to allow me to tell my step kids (after 1-1/2 on HRT). Also she says she's not ready for my to have my consult for bottom surgery that becomes more and more something I need in my life. 

@Vidanjali framing the question like you did will help me. I have hidden so long that to be open and honest is hard for me to do and I'm reading "Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes are High" by Patterson, Grenny, McMillan and Switzler as I am having such a hard time creating dialog and your example does keep the conversation safe and not causing defensive walls to immediately go up (I don't think). Anyway - thanks for a good opening question to try to absorb her wants and needs so we can discuss her as well as my needs.

 

[Billie75B]

@VidanjaliWhat you have been describing has really got me to thinking about my own issues besides being trans in that for me sexual intimacy has never been on the top of the list to me it to was experiencing life with my partner. I believe that is why my soon to be ex-wife left with her daughter for California she always complained that I wasn't pushing for more sexual intimacy to the point she thought that I was either gay, or was having an affair with someone else which neither was true. So now besides being a trans female I am now wondering id I might be non-binary? something to discuss with my therapist for sure. 

[miz miranda]

@VidanjaliYour struggles resonated with me. My biggest fear is that of being rejected. It is always something I have struggled with. Conditional acceptance is sometimes rejection and may be more painful than complete rejection. I am not out, not even fully with myself, and while I am positive my wife would support; I don't know that she would be able to accept me. We have been married for nearly 43 years and have been blessed with each other. I try to imagine how I would feel if the circumstances were the opposite and ask myself if I could be completely accepting and supportive. I want to beleive I would, but, I just don't know.

 

You ask is it selfish to want all you need for yourself. It is more selfish than selfless but it is not wrong to need something. In my mind an imperfect analogy comes to mind, if a person had advanced prostate cancer and surgery was recommended. Would it be selfish to want to live longer knowing that you ability to continue your intimacy with your partner could be lost? I beleive that you need to explore yourself and all that it means. I am not going to demonize your partner because I can't understand what they are experiencing.

 

Our marriage has stayed strong even though we both have had medical  issues that have made intimacy less desirable and difficult. I have had to allow myself to experience it differently, I  hug her a lot more than I ever did before and for us it has become just as satisfying.

 

Please love yourself and know that you are not alone in your struggle!