Intentional misgendering or am I being irrational?

[Cary]

I went to the local superstore a couple times this last week, and I decided to do some experimenting, since I'm still kind of questioning myself.

I have just recently got a pretty short haircut, and I've been wearing my "men's" clothing, and binding. No mix-n-match, no jewelry, no makeup. Just me and my clothes.

Now, I realize I am 5'4" and pretty thin. When I bind and wear the kind of clothes I was wearing, the only way my chest will be noticeable is if someone sticks their face up to it. My clothes hide my figure pretty easily. 

I'll also add I'm not on HRT.

 

Anyway, I have been noticing I'm getting called ma'am way more than usual, and it's been mostly the  same handful of people saying it multiple times, like when we're shopping in the same sections.

 

But something even weirder happened a couple days ago, and every time I think about it, it seems even more strange. 

I was going through the footwear section, or trying to, when I got blocked into an aisle. There was already someone in front of me, and then someone else came down the aisle behind me. 

With nowhere to go, I just stood there, trying to appear as if I were just looking at random stuff for a moment, when the guy in front of me, who was coming down the aisle the opposite direction, said "Do you want to get through, ma'am?".

 

So, I seized the opportunity, of course, and tried to go on my way. But, he didn't even move his shopping cart at first. He only moved it, eventually, just barely enough for me to get through, when I think he realized I was just going to bump his cart out of the way. I didn't even really think about that until I was home, but now it seems like it was sort of confrontational.

But, I think the only reason I even gave it that much thought is because something else happened at that time.

As I was passing by him, he grabbed a pair of shoes, and looking at the shoes, said "I wonder if they're male or female", like he was asking a question. (Honestly, I think the shoes' "gender" was perfectly obvious, imo).

At that point, I gave no reply and just kept walking.

 

I've been thinking about this for a couple days, and it's been pretty disturbing, actually. I've lived long enough and done enough shopping in my life, and I honestly can't remember ANYONE ever grabbing anything and questioning if "they're or it is male or female".

 

So, I'm asking for opinions. Do you think this stuff is happening intentionally, or am I being ridiculous? I do have a tendency to overthink things and take things quite literally. 

 

On a more positive note, I realized that I don't like being called ma'am. Not one bit. So that seems to be helping me get a step closer to figuring out my identity, anyway.

 

[Cary]

Thank you @Hannah Renee.

 I really think he was messing with me. It's just a shame this happened on my first time out to a busy place, trying to see if I could even come close to passing. I've had a few people throughout my life blatantly ask me to my face if I was a male or a female, and they just actually didn't seem to know, and that bothered me less than what happened at the store.

I have to say, I did go in there wondering what kind of reactions I would get, if any, and I guess I have to be more careful from now on, especially considering my location. I don't like confrontation. It did catch me off guard, but I won't let one person stop me from trying to finally be myself.

 

I can also see how my build and face are probably giving it away. It seems every time I've managed to convince myself that the bone structure is mostly sharp and prominent, my daughter points out, without any ill intentions, my jawline is too round. Then,of course, I have to go do the full inspection in front of the mirror, every time. I seem to get more people who legitimately wonder, when I've got a full face of makeup, with my brows done and contouring in strategic places.

Maybe, I need to wear my "men's" clothing with full makeup! I'm really trying to avoid T, because I'm a professional vocalist, and a change in my voice could truly ruin my main source of income.

 

Ugh. I'm just losing it, I guess. 

[Marcie Jensen]

@CaryI agree with Hannah Renee. Especially about your response. Don't give them the satisfaction!!

 

And, sadly, being misgendered is a fact of life. Doesn't matter the reason, it still hurts. I wish I had an answer for you, but I'm afraid there isn't a good one. 

 

I wish you the bet.

[Charlize]

Unfortunately there are people like the ones you describe who seem to enjoy intimidating others.  I remember one of my early trips out to the mall where vi was confronted byba "pack" of giggling adolescent girls.  I felt traumatized by the situation.  Somehow i just kept going out and in time as i became comfortable in myself i was amazed when several years later i walked past the giggler's younger sisters which nary a glance.  I'm sure my look and sense of fashion improved over time but i think what showed more than anything was my comfort as myself.  

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Vidanjali]

@Cary sounds weird to me too, especially given the asking shoes their gender part of the story. I also detest being called ma'am, but I'm nonbinary & I don't present as deliberately masculine - I like to mix it up. Sometimes when someone calls me ma'am in public, I ignore them. It's a conflict because I don't want to be rude, nor do I usually feel like telling everyone not to call me that, nor do I want to reply, "yes?" therefore confirming I'm the ma'am in question. Maybe a neutral response to persistent "ma'am-ing" could be "are you talking to me?" In the case of the shoe aisle, "If you're talking to me, yes, I'd like to get by. Thanks, man." It's dang tricky because there's no one size fits all reaction you can pull from your pocket. AND above all, you need to be careful and safe. Just to reframe the story with the hope of reducing some of the residual creepiness you're feeling, maybe the guy was intrigued by you - maybe he was questioning his own gender, however latently, and that was his super awkward way of trying to engage you. Just a possibility to consider because I don't want you to suffer so much from the emotional fallout of what may have been an attempt at confrontation. Sometimes it helps to reframe the story, just got your own sanity, comfort & confidence. 

 

On another note (pun intended), that's super cool that you're a professional vocalist. I'm an amateur vocalist - have sung in choirs my whole life and have occasionally sung solos. I used to sing S1, but after a pretty brutal recovery from a tonsillectomy in my mid-20s, switched to A2. A few years ago, a vocal tutor "diagnosed" that I'm still S1, and that I just needed to rehab to train up my range. I love singing soprano. And, frankly that is the main thing that stops me from investigating low dose T. What kind of singing do you do? 

 

Ah, one more thought about singing. Are you a Chanticleer fan? They're an all male a capella group. I saw them a few years ago and it was one of the best concerts I'd ever attended. This is one of the pieces they performed, my favorite of Mahler's Rükert lieder. The male soprano is outstanding! 

 

[Davie]

Identity and Comfort.

I'm afraid to present how I feel who I am in public which is often Half Female and Half Male—because I think I'd probably be misgendered by 100% of all people that way. Probably that number is a little high, because it's only an indication of how I feel. I feel caught in the middle with nowhere to go and no one to feel comfortable with around me—I do have friends who I'm becoming more comfortable with as they do the same for me. I keep coming back to that thing I hear here so often: Just try to become the most true person for myself and don't try to label it. A very big label is needed to cover the me who now exists, though it's never big enough to hide away behind. Ho hum. Here I am. Ho hum. Don't call me ma'am.
cheers,
Davie

[Heather Shay]

@Davie I have to hide in public in my MAGA area. It is difficult to get the strength to drive a hour, change and go as me. I usually don't get clocked but that is little comfort.

I can understand your position in that I'm not sure how you would present to not get misgendered. It's hard enough for those who have the right body but identity as gay and transgendered is a distant second but non-binary must be a real pain but most non-binaries I know identify with their given body or swing to the opposite after hiding that side of them all their life and that can have separate issues. 

My heart aches for you as much as it aches for myself.

Hugs,

Heather

[Davie]

17 minutes ago, Heather Shay said:

@Davie I have to hide in public in my MAGA area. It is difficult to get the strength to drive a hour, change and go as me. I usually don't get clocked but that is little comfort.

I can understand your position in that I'm not sure how you would present to not get misgendered. It's hard enough for those who have the right body but identity as gay and transgendered is a distant second but non-binary must be a real pain but most non-binaries I know identify with their given body or swing to the opposite after hiding that side of them all their life and that can have separate issues. 

My heart aches for you as much as it aches for myself.

Hugs,

Heather

Bless you, @Heather ShayUnderstanding matters.

— Davie

[Mx.Drago]

I would agree there was some passive aggression there with the dude w. the cart, but I wouldn't say it's was directly cuz of the gender thing more of an additional add on to a stress ball of his own personal issues. He was being thoughtless, but you are at a superstore where most people in general just wanna buy there stuff and leave, minimum thought bar. It's hard to determine intent even in investigation, unless conversation is exchanged that specifically highlights it. I can only hope people go in peace, cuz I'm still looking for my own. No time for testing my water when already in it. Thanks for share the story.

I've notice, people like to speak louder when they're looking to be reassured about something. If they say "...Ma'am!?," or "...ma'am?"🤷 Maybe you're confusing them, people have done the same to me often, it's awkward. I don't try to look masculine but my habits and attire are. Kinda get a bit happy when people question, something is at least passing and catching on. It's strange.

[Cary]

@Marcie Jensenand @Charlize,

Thank you both very much for your replies. I'm certainly not going to let one person determine how I go about my life, even if it was a little disturbing. And I can empathize, Charlize, with facing those packs of giggling kids (and adults, too!),as I've always kind of stood out anyway, and typically dealt with those giggling groups throughout my life. But, that's ok. Just made me realize I didn't fit into the "norm" and really didn't care to if being judgemental and unaccepting were prerequisites! 

 

I will just add these latest experiences up to being more of the same. Funny how it never really changes...

[Cary]

@Vidanjali,

Yeah, I think I've got a pretty good idea of how I'd describe my gender ID now, although I haven't got around to making a post yet, but also nonbinary.

I did think about what you have described, and whether or not the person might have been trying to engage with me in that way. It's possible (and the thought has been intriguing me), but if so, if they had gone about it differently, I might have stopped to chat for a minute. Unfortunately, the way it happened, I was more concerned for my safety, and sanity, at that time. And I pretty much don't say anything to people who address me as "ma'am", unless I think they are just completely unaware and have no ill intentions, just saying it out of habit, etc.

 

Also, it's awesome to meet another vocalist on here! I am pretty easily categorized as an S1, depending on what type of singing I'm doing. The bulk of my work is classical, where I fall into S1, but I can usually pretty comfortably hit A1, (I should have never told them 😶) as well, so I can get shuffled around, and sometimes I fill in for local bands or groups (rock and pop, mostly) who need a "female" voice and stage presence, so I get to play with my range a lot more there. I just have to make sure I have a good warm up, either way, but I've been doing classical for a looong time, and my range has changed a lot since I was younger, and I'm still working on it! Lol. Yeah, I'm honestly terrified of starting T, because of that. I know I could adjust, but time is money, in my case. 

 

I'd say if a vocal coach thinks you can get back to S1, and you want to, go for it! It takes time, but I've had continued coaching since I started as an amateur, still do, and I can hit notes (higher and lower) I never thought I'd be able to in a million years. It's also great that you enjoy singing, too!

 

Chanticleer is amazing! Some of the best voices I've ever heard, and the soprano range is outstanding. They're all amazing, but the soprano is unmistakable. I haven't seen them live, but it's definitely on my bucket list!

 

[Cary]

@Davie,

I'm sure feeling this way isn't fun for you, either. Only one person I know irl knows I've been struggling with gender identity, but I wouldn't call that person a friend, really. 

I'm glad you have some friends you can feel somewhat comfortable around, at least. 

I haven't felt comfortable enough with anyone (besides my GT) in my life to tell them anything, except this one person, who, in hindsight, I probably shouldn't have told.

I think It's been easier for me, in the past, to present by combining "female" and "male" stuff. Hence why I might just go for my "men's" clothes, with full makeup, and my beloved jewelry. Oddly, people seem to think I look more masculine with ALL my makeup on(?) I can't get my head around that one, but, why not? Lol. I don't mind wearing makeup, although I don't identify as female, and if people seem to think I'm more masculine that way, well, so be it, I guess. I wouldn't exactly call myself a "manly man", either. This excursion into the outside world was more of an experiment to see what would happen and how I'd feel about it.

I guess, I know now!

[Cary]

@Mx.Drago,

Yeah, who really knows what was going on in this situation? Not me, that's for sure! I just wasn't too happy about the confrontational manner of it all. I can only speak for myself, but I'd legitimately rather someone ask me to my face, if they are sincerely wondering, and they have, and I've never had a problem. I tell them and they go on their way. 

I will just write this one off, I suppose. I'm not going to concern myself over it anymore. Unfortunately, the area I'm in, it just shows me that I'll have to be more careful in the future. I do not live in a trans friendly place, and as unfortunate as it is that so many of us still have to hide at least a part of ourselves, I guess I'll have to be creative until I can go somewhere better.

[Cary]

@Vidanjali,

Lol, I was just thinking, because of my vocal range and how it is still changing after all these (ok, 29, *sigh*) years, now I'm having having vocal identity issues, too! (I've been quite envious of Mitch Grassi from PTX for a long time! Love his falsetto!) On a serious note, though, (pun intended, lol), I really love being able to dip into the alto range more and more as my voice matures.

[Cary]

@Hannah Renee,

Yeah, you're right, he's categorized as a countertenor, which is that high tenor you're talking about. And that's his natural voice. But he frequently uses a head voice to reach higher notes, including some of his falsetto notes, so at that point he's no longer fully engaging the diaphragm to sing. He also spans almost 5 octaves, which is insane, lol, and his switch to his head voice is pretty seamless, and probably comes easily to him because of his naturally high voice and the training he's had. 

Either way, I'm jealous, lol. I can hit falsetto, but nowhere near as powerfully as he can!

[Vidanjali]

@Cary one time I took a quiz on Facebook called which singing part matches your personality. My result was T1. I was delighted! Not a diva, but rather a heartthrob who knows it, eats it up, and keeps dishing it out - women want you, men want to be you, lol. We're always on the lookout for more tenors in the choir. The ones we do have are all gay & very handsome! I often have tenor envy - I don't necessarily desire a lower range, I just identity more with the tenor section. Of course on T, there's no guarantee a lower range might come out all crackley. I would like to pursue some vocal coaching, especially since I finally got septum & turbinate surgery two years go and thus have a better sense of resonance in the "mask". Happy to have a fellow nonbinary singing pal here on TP! 

[Cary]

@Vidanjali,

Lol, sounds like a great quiz. I'll have to try to find it! Love your result of T1, too, and I'm glad you are happy with it🙂 I wonder if I'd get a similar result...I definitely have the same hesitations about T, mostly because of my voice, but other things,too, but it sounds like we're pretty much in the same boat as far as going on T. Yes, tenor envy, lol. I feel that. I don't actually want that range, either, but what amazing voices!

 

I think vocal coaching is a great idea, especially with your surgeries being healed and having a better sense of where your voice is at now. I still do coaching with one of my former choir masters, about once a week when possible. I'm so grateful to have their guidance and expertise, and they help me with all the genres I like to sing, so a win-win situation, there!