What is a "man" vs a "woman"

[Mary]

What are the attributes of a "man" vs those of a "woman" - obvious anatomical differences aside.

 

A man is supposed to be brave, strong (physically and mentally", stoic, unemotional, logical, protective (physically), daring, .....what else?

 

A woman is supposed to be soft, gentle, home-making, emotional, intuitive, non-confrontational...... what else?

 

So what would it be if a AMAB were to be allowed to take on the "female" characteristics. Perhaps even hair growth, adornment, etc. Would the whole "transition thing become moot? Would it still be necessary to stress over hormones, surgery, etc?

 

A bit of a philosophical consideration, but I think it might be central to many of our conflicts about "who or what am I?" In other words, what is this feeling of "being a girl" or of "being a boy" really? What does that actually mean. Is a physical change necessary to adopt the positives of the "other" gender?

Interested to hear what those of a philosophical bent think.

[DeeDee]

@Mary This type of question is what I asked myself when I started questioning my identity, and in fact at my first GIC appointment, the Dr asked me what makes a woman a woman and a man a man.

 

Even the "obvious anatomical differences" have exceptions and are not all that helpful for definitions.

There are men and women, who do not have what society sees as the physical sex characteristics of their gender (whether you talk about breasts or a uterus or gonads) but have no issue seeing themselves as a man or a woman, not to mention intersex people.

Gender itself boils down to stereotypes like the ones you have mentioned, and yet we all know exceptions to those rules too. Logical or butch women, emotional or flamboyant men etc...

There is already a move in younger and more informed generations away from living as a binary society - men comfortable painting their nails and wearing makeup and women not feeling a need to shave or wear makeup or wearing masculine or androgynous clothing. The clothes do not make the man, yet society still separates them out while not putting equal weight on "cross dressing". In the west no one cares about women wearing shirts and trousers.

Even if it didn't matter, my transitioning is not about wanting to wear pretty dresses without being laughed at, thumped or worse.

Ultimately it boils down to the fact that I feel that my place in this world is as a woman! It is in those "spaces" and interacting as a woman that I feel the most comfortable as a person, unfortunately my body does not match that feeling, so I am trying to make my outside match my inside as much as possible so society interacts with me they way I want it to.

I may never be a beauty queen, but I am more at home being a queen than a king! 👸 💋

[Heather Nicole]

This is a question I wrestled with a lot when I was questioning. For me personally, there's only one response I've come across so far that's ever made any sense to me personally, and it's from this video here:

 

 

There's a lot in there, but the basic argument (as I understand it) is that "man"/"woman" are part of a category of concepts that are not defined by any one specific thing, but are instead defined by a somewhat more vague matter of balancing many different aspects: Across the whole wide variety of associated attributes, what's a closer fit overall? "Man"? "Woman"? Both? Neither? Some combination? Etc...
 

[Mary]

Thanks DeeDee. It's always interesting to hear from people who have grappled with these issues and come up with their own solutions.

 

I think your comment that you want people to treat you congruent to the way you feel is important - the social cues are the clothes, mainly.

 

Lots of food for thought there!

[Mary]

Thank you Heather Nicole.

 

I think this video is brilliant. It should be required watching for politicians, especially for those in some states which shall remain nameless. And for school kids.

 

I really enjoyed it.

 

Hugs.

[KathyLauren]

On 7/14/2022 at 5:30 AM, Mary said:

A man is supposed to be brave, strong (physically and mentally", stoic, unemotional, logical, protective (physically), daring, .....what else?

 

A woman is supposed to be soft, gentle, home-making, emotional, intuitive, non-confrontational...... what else?

 

The "supposed to" in those observations implies a social construct.  Someone is apparently doing the supposing, so it is made to look like something implied by interactions.

 

But I ask why do diverse cultures around the world mostly all "suppose" the same things?  I think that men and women are biologically programmed to think and feel in certain ways.  Societies pick up on those differences and amplify them by supposing that everyone should behave in certain ways.

 

That makes it really hard to separate the biological influences from the social ones, since they are basically saying similar things.

 

Although we can see on an MRI that there are biological differences in brain structures, the technology isn't available yet to diagnose from outside who is a man and who is a woman.  We have to rely on self-declaration, which leaves the field open to fakers and tricksters.

 

I don't think anyone can really answer the question about what it "feels like" to be a man or a woman.  The best I can offer is that "man" doesn't feel like me and "woman" does feel like me.  I have been asked what is the difference in feeling.  People are surprised when I tell them that I can't answer that, since I have never been a man.  I don't know "man".  I only know "woman pretending to be a man" and "woman not pretending".

 

Is physical change necessary?  It is for some, maybe not for others.  For me, my social dysphoria was much stronger than the body dysphoria.  I knew I had to be seen as a woman.  But after starting my transition, I realized that being seen as a woman meant being seen as a woman.  I needed my body to match my identity to fully satisfy my social dysphoria.

[Ivy]

It is surprisingly complex.  Too many people on the outside want a simple answer (XXvsXY).

There is DNA involved, sure.  But even that gets complex.  Then, there are the hormonal influences on brain development in the womb, and after birth.  Add in social conditioning, and sheesh.  Is gender binary? or a spectrum?

It just comes down to the individual involved.

 

Oh, I love Abigail's videos.

[Guest]

Pulling a page from the Republican Taliban group, maybe we just wind up with a soul that is incongruent to the one we are born into. Depends on one's point of view I guess. I can't change my soul, but I can change the box it resides within.

[Brook J]

Kathy - what you stated really resonated with me. “For me, my social dysphoria was much stronger than the body dysphoria.  I knew I had to be seen as a woman.  But after starting my transition, I realized that being seen as a woman meant being seen as a woman.  I needed my body to match my identity to fully satisfy my social dysphoria.”

 

I have not yet completed transition, and therefor appear in business in male mode. But often in a group of people I feel invisible. I can’t be seen because the people in the group see a man, but despite my anatomy, I am not one. 

 

The question is complex. As mammals, we often define male and female as reproductive capabilities and these are often characterized by associated secondary characteristics, But for those who are transgender, the question is not that simple. 

[Ivy]

2 hours ago, Brook J said:

But for those who are transgender, the question is not that simple. 

Yes, this.

I label myself MtF, but I do tend to see gender as a spectrum of sorts.

 

Welcome Brook.

[Trans22]

I think we all want to belong and this is why labels exist, so I've labeled myself as Transfeminine here.  I suspect the vast majority of people have a mind that has both masculine and feminine characteristics.  For some, like myself the picture significantly favors feminine.   I completed a questionnaire that lead to a gender coordinates map about a month after finding out that I was born with a female.  From memory my score was 8/20 for masculine, 17/20 for feminine.  I trust the result because the questions were so obscure that I couldn't imagine gaming it.  I wonder what my score would be now that I've started HRT.