USA Today: Some Trans Families Becoming 'Political Refugees'

[Carolyn Marie]

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2022/10/29/transgender-children-families-flee-states-restricting-rights/10547110002/

 

 

The U.S. has the temerity to criticize other nations for their human rights policies.  We need to fix our own problems first.

 

Carolyn Marie

[awkward-yet-sweet]

There's a lot of political refugees around.  Where I live, we have plenty of new "immigrants" from CA, NY, CO, etc...

Yes, we have a lot to fix here.  But here's a sample of some things we don't have:

 

1.  Death camps (here's looking at you, North Korea and China)

2. Helicopter flights to the middle of the ocean for political opponents (Pinochet's Chile)

3. A fascist army junta taking over the government (70's Greece...where my family fled from)

4.  Crowds of people waving machetes to chop up their neighbors of another tribe (90's Rwanda)

5.  Terrorists in control of the government throwing gay people off the tops of buildings (Iraq and Syria recently). 

 

^^^Compared to that stuff, I think we can hopefully fix our issues. 

 

 

 

[VickySGV]

Some familiar names in that article, people who have been outspoken about the Texas politicians who are making hay off the Cis voters who are not allowed decent education on reproductive health but are bombarded by outdated concepts that are in line with Bible Belt fervor against the Trans population.  California and two other states have some degree of protection for the safety of the parents and families of the children involved.  Children who have changed gender will not beget the next generation of voters hoped for seems to be a big issue for them.  That is the only way I can make some sense of it.  Right!!

[Charlize]

It is hard to comprehend what will happen in the future.  At varies times people have fled to places which offered peace and acceptance due to threats and intimidation.  This country, in my opinion, should not see that as a necessity.  I fear we are loosing so much as we see the politics of hate take over.  This is after all a political issue where votes are being sought by denigrating a small part of the population.  What a pity that it is accepted by so many.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Marcie Jensen]

Wow. There are some good points being made here as well as some misconceptions the article provides. Due to my military career in the intelligence community, I have had a great deal of experience with political refugees, asylum seekers and refugees going back to the 1980s. So, I think I can speak with some authority on what political refugees are and what iot means to flee a country.

 

I also want to emphasize that I do NOT like nor agree with governor Abbott's decision regarding trans children and investigating their parents for child abuse. His action is stupid, unenforceable, unconstitutional and a waste of resources.

 

That said, using the term "political refugees" and "fleeing" a state to describe parents who relocate to a state where trans children are more accepted is hyperbole of the crassist sort. Here's why:

 

1. They don't meet the criteria of a political refugee as defined under U.S. law. They certainly do not meet the criteria of asylum seekers under the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA). Specifics can be found in title 8 U.S.C.

 

2. There is nothing in United States law that prohibits travel between the respective states for any reason, hence the term "fleeing" does not apply. That these folks are moving out of fear is is irrelevant because freedom of movement is allowed. Is it morally abhorrent that they feel the need to move? YES! No question of that, but that doesn't apply. Regardless of how we would like deny it, feelings are not facts; they are emotions.

 

3. Additionally, no international boundary was crossed, hence, under U.S. or international law, they aren't refugees.

 

4. That they don't have the funds to support a move is sad, but again, that doesn't make them refugees. They are not being forced to move. It's a choice.

 

5. @awkward-yet-sweet makes some excellent points backed by history on examples of what situations  cause refugees to appear. Yes, we do have serious issues in this country, including trans rights and they need to be addressed. The hyperbole and mischaracterization being employed by both sides is simply not helpful and actually does more harm than good. Both sides need to start LISTENING to each other instead of making accusations and ill founded legislation and commentaries.

[Ivy]

11 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

Yes, we have a lot to fix here.  But here's a sample of some things we don't have:

 

1.  Death camps (here's looking at you, North Korea and China)

2. Helicopter flights to the middle of the ocean for political opponents (Pinochet's Chile)

3. A fascist army junta taking over the government (70's Greece...where my family fled from)

4.  Crowds of people waving machetes to chop up their neighbors of another tribe (90's Rwanda)

5.  Terrorists in control of the government throwing gay people off the tops of buildings (Iraq and Syria recently). 

This is true, I suppose.  But we do have people actually calling for a lot of these things.  Hopefully it will never come to that.  But I'm no longer confident in saying "i't can't happen here."

 

38 minutes ago, Marcie Jensen said:

They don't meet the criteria of a political refugee as defined under U.S. law.

Well, I suppose being allowed to leave is maybe not exactly "fleeing" even if to stay is to face prosecution is the only other option.  The state threatening to take away you kids… nothing serious here - suck it up snowflake.

Life in prison for accepted medical treatment?  Meh.  Just don't do it, and you're fine.

And after all you don't have to cross an international border.  (at least not yet)

 

Facts are real, but so are feelings.  I'll have to admit that a lot of my life's journey has been directed by feelings, for better or worse.

 

Leaving your home to find refuge doesn't technically qualify you as a refugee I suppose.

 

I'm going to stop now.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

5 hours ago, Ivy said:

This is true, I suppose.  But we do have people actually calling for a lot of these things.  Hopefully it will never come to that.  But I'm no longer confident in saying "i't can't happen here."

 

Well, I've heard a lot of things...but I haven't heard calls for death flights or machetes.  However, I've actually heard calls for internment camps...from the left, for unvaccinated folks.  And I've heard calls for government takeovers from various sides.  Fortunately, most of the weird stuff is fringe BS.  Maybe it could happen here, but I hope the crazier ideas are unlikely. 

 

@Marcie Jensen I suspect there is a fair amount of tongue-in-cheek talk regarding refugees....in the same tone that I call recent arrivals to my area "immigrants."  At least where I live, we joke that California and similar places are separate nations because lifestyles and laws are quite different.  Some days, I'm amazed we still share a 50-state union. 

 

On a serious note, however, this is just one more issue that highlights the major differences between states and regions in the USA.  I'm kind of doubting we'll keep a 50-state union for much longer.  There have been various ideas proposed for new nations, most of the maps showing between 4 and 7 smaller nations to be created out of the former US.  It is an interesting thought, but I'm not sure it could guarantee peace.  For the forward-thinking among us, it might be prudent to examine those possibilities and determine where you'd like to be, before you actually have to cross an international border to get from one state to another. 

[Ivy]

2 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

but I haven't heard calls for death flights or machetes.

Well, I have heard calls for LGBTQ folks to be shot "in the back of the head."  (Probably don't need the machetes since we already have enough guns here)

 

I think the actual "left" is so fragmented that even they don't know who they are.  I mean… Pelosi… Biden… are leftist radicals?  Give me a break.  

 

Why are all these people so so bent out of shape over what are only a tiny minority of Americans?  It's not like there aren't actual problems to deal with.  But of course that might take a bit of personal sacrifice.  Guess that would be un-american.  Besides, we need someone to blame.

 

I don't make much out of actually being a veteran, but I am offended by being considered un-american because I am slightly to the left of Benito Mussolini.

 

Enough rant for the night.  There were drinks involved.  I should go to bed.

 

Love you all…  Really I do.

 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

As a classical liberal (call it libertarian if you want), I tend to believe that government functions best when it functions least.  We seem have an overly functional government in some areas if bills are getting passed so easily.  No matter what side wins, somebody is gonna get oppressed.  Time to put some gravel in the gears. 

 

For my vote in 2024, its gonna be this guy for president:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermin_Supreme

[Heather Nicole]

3 hours ago, Ivy said:

but I am offended by being considered un-american because I am slightly to the left of Benito Mussolini.

 

I feel the same way, and FWIW, I do think this is a very apt way of putting it.

 

Ever since Sept 11, I've noticed the practical explosion in nationalism and in hordes of people deriding everything that "America" is supposed to be about as "un-American", and hailing everything "America" is meant to stand against...as "freedom".

 

To say it's been disturbing feels like an understatement.

[Heather Nicole]

13 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

That said, using the term "political refugees" and "fleeing" a state to describe parents who relocate to a state where trans children are more accepted is hyperbole of the crassist sort. Here's why:

 

To me, this just sounds like objecting to murder being compared to serial killings. Yes, there are objectively worse things out there. Doesn't make the think in question any less horrific and inexcusable. Once you're already in the realm of horribly evil deeds, ranking them is just splitting hairs.

[Heather Nicole]

13 hours ago, Marcie Jensen said:

That said, using the term "political refugees" and "fleeing" a state to describe parents who relocate to a state where trans children are more accepted is hyperbole of the crassist sort. Here's why:

 

And honesty, the only real difference between what's going on in these particular states now, versus your scenarios qualifying as "political refugees" and "fleeing", is...

 

Just this one thing...

 

Degree of support.