Intimacy and Identity

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I'll try to keep this PG-13, but there isn't really an area to talk about this stuff.

 

So, since I've been living more as my boy self, life has been more comfortable.  I never really liked my body as a girl, but as a boy I feel better in my own skin.  Not 100%, but better.  My husband and I adapted our intimate activities to match, and things have been OK in that area for the most part.  Actually, better than I thought would be possible.  My intimate activities with my female partners could use some work yet, but nothing too terrible.

 

Here's what's weird:  I get the occasional desire to do PIV intercourse like a girl.  I mean, I've got the anatomy so I suppose its natural, but it feels strange in my brain to have that desire if it doesn't match who I am.  Is that normal?  Do others experience something like this?  Do you resist the desire, or just go with it because...hey, it feels good in the moment? 

[Heather Nicole]

In many ways, gender is often just a big ol' ball of stereotypes. (Maybe an argument could be made that's all it is?)

 

Even in the cis-world it's common and generally accepted (aside from the occasional closed-minded haters scattered about) for people of one gender, to have traits that are seen as more common among (and more traditionally associated with) a different gender. Obvious examples: Being a sports fan, wearing jeans, or doing mechanical, construction or military work doesn't make anyone less of a woman. And earrings, being compassionate and nurturing, cooking, cleaning, or designing and sewing women's wear doesn't make anyone less of a man. Similarly, being attracted to men doesn't make anyone less of a man, and being attracted to women doesn't make anyone less of a woman.

 

I think it's safe to extend that to what you're describing, too. Whatever works for you, works for you, no matter what that combination may be. Maybe there's a convenient label for it, maybe there isn't. Either way: So what.

 

I've heard a lot about there being many amab trans women out there who don't have genital dysphoria and so they transition in other ways, but keep the "bits" they were born with, and are perfectly happy with them, and with using them (both in the bedroom and otherwise), and still living as a woman. Some woman have a penis, some women are perfectly happy having (and using) their penis, and it doesn't make them any less of a woman.

 

I'll admit I've spent less time around trans-man spaces, but I have no doubt the same must be true there. There are definitely men who have a vagina and it doesn't make them any less of a man. But more to the point, if a man enjoys using his vagina and that just isn't one of the things he feels dysphoric about, I see no reason that would make him any less of a man. Gender is between the ears, not between the legs.

 

And, I realize a lot of what I've said here is kind of binary, but naturally of course, if you happen to feel more comfortable with a less binary, or a less "labeled" gender identity, then so be it. The important thing is knowing what does or doesn't work for you. The rest is labels.

[Vidanjali]

On 10/30/2022 at 11:20 PM, Katie23 said:

Well awkward, humans are sexual beings.

 

Respectfully, except for those of us who are asexual. 

[Vidanjali]

On 10/30/2022 at 10:07 PM, awkward-yet-sweet said:

it feels strange in my brain to have that desire if it doesn't match who I am.  Is that normal? Do you resist the desire, or just go with it because...hey, it feels good in the moment? 

 

At the risk of sounding too esoteric, it may depend on how attached you are to your understanding of who you are. How much does desire determine who you are? As your desires come and go, does who you are likewise come and go, or are you always you? If you desired to perform a harmful action, would you have to debate as much whether it aligned with who you are? I understand you're probably specifically referring to sexuality and gender expression here, but I think those identities - like who we are in any moment or context - may likewise undergo some measure of flux, especially seeing as you've fairly recently transitioned to a different way of expressing gender. Ultimately, I feel as long as you're not causing harm, it's fine to explore your desires. Just try to avoid judging yourself - be open to discovering potential new ways of being you. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Vidanjali I'd say that a large part of my identity flows from my relationships and my function in them.  Not all of it...obviously there's a kind of moral code underneath that would prevent harmful actions like you describe.  But the rest of me?  I often describe myself as codependent.  Without my close relationships, I curl up and become nonfunctional.  The "go it alone" ideal of American independence is totally alien to me....

 

This is why my gender issues started showing up when I hit puberty, and then became a focus in my late 20's when I started having intimate relationships.  To be female in a relationship is to be female in function... easier done with my GF, but with my husband I hit the hard roadblock of improper anatomy, improper hormones, and infertility.  I just didn't get the right body - not formed right, not functional.  So I try to match my body up to being a boy...which seems to work better.  But it isn't a totally good fit either, as I still have girl parts and it makes sexual desire and activity a bit weird. 

 

I get really uncomfortable with uncertainty.  In this case, being uncertain of who/what I'm supposed to be seems to be a lifelong thing, and facing that is really discouraging. 

[Vidanjali]

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

@Vidanjali I'd say that a large part of my identity flows from my relationships and my function in them.

 

How does your relationship with yourself play into this? 

 

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I often describe myself as codependent.  Without my close relationships, I curl up and become nonfunctional.

 

To wit, by developing your relationship with your self, you will never be alone. Speaking from experience, this is one of the most challenging endeavors one can pursue. But, it is very much worth it. 

 

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

The "go it alone" ideal of American independence is totally alien to me....

 

I don't think that the antonym of codependence is "American autonomy", nor do I think that's necessarily a good goal. I think a middle path on which one is independent in the sense that their thoughts, emotions, and actions are not reactions to the vacilating moods and perceived expectations of others. This way, one can be a more exemplary team member, family member, friend or associate because one's confidence and strength comes from within and is therefore strong, genuine, and reliable. 

 

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

To be female in a relationship is to be female in function

 

But, there's a whole lot to unpack just with this statement. Being female in function is not locked in. It varies throughout time, across cultures, and is potentially infinitely variable. 

 

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

improper anatomy, improper hormones, and infertility.  I just didn't get the right body - not formed right, not functional.

 

Is it possible to change the narrative here? Could it instead be that you are simply you. Are you willing to consider examining your attachment to binary gender, bodies, roles, desires, "proper vs." improper ", etc.? 

 

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I get really uncomfortable with uncertainty. 

 

Congratulations, you're human! That is completely understandable. Especially considering how very palpable it is for you being a person with an intersex body. Not being intersex myself (that I know of), I cannot it understand what that's like, and I acknowledge that I can only relate insofar as my own journey learning how to exist in the world, with myself, and within my relationships as an afab nonbinary trans asexual panromantic individual. Again, I want to affirm that you are you, and you do not need to fit into any perceived mold. Your family values and loves you because you are you - not because of your performance of this or that particular role. 

 

12 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

In this case, being uncertain of who/what I'm supposed to be seems to be a lifelong thing, and facing that is really discouraging. 

 

Discovering yourself IS a lifelong thing, I think, for every human. When you're gender/body/sex/etc. is "nonnormative", you are necessarily plunged into inquiry of "who am I?" like it or not - and in this sense, perhaps ironically, I think that so-called nonnormative people have an advantage - we must learn how to understand ourselves in the world, and we thereby actively strive for our potential selves. With self-effort and good guidance, the uncertainty is not constant, but rather fluctuating, and ideally on the upward trend overall because along that challenging journey comes moments of clarity, surrender, euphoria, and even bliss. This is possible and I daresay inevitable for anyone who is earnestly willing to try. 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Vidanjali Somehow, having a relationship with myself sounds strange.  To me, relationship by its very nature is focused on others. As I have trouble figuring out what innate identity is supposed to be...I guess I've not had one?  

 

I know some people are comfortable living outside of the binary.  Enviable!  For my own personal existence (not applying my thoughts to anyone else), it runs opposite of my understanding of the world.  "God created them male and female.". That's what I am supposed to be.  Except, I drew the short straw at birth and ended up...other.  My life has to match my faith and culture, or at least I feel I ought to make a good attempt at it. 

 

I tried so hard to be a real wife.  I keep expecting my husband to have the answers...to just tell me what to do, how to be.  He just tells me to be myself... So unhelpful, but I know my expectations are unfair to him.   

[Vidanjali]

@awkward-yet-sweet relationship with oneself cannot really be compared one to one with relationship to others. There is a lot to learn there and there are many many many ways to perceive of and develop this. For one, I strongly recommend mind-body exercises and therapy modalities. 

 

I would not say I am comfortable living outside the binary, necessarily. But I have become aware that I am outside the binary and therefore need to figure out how to live. I, too, tried hard to be a "real wife". I really felt it was killing me - I was burdened with such pervasive shame, guilt, and self-loathing. 

 

As far as "God created them male and female...", note that I am a spiritual aspirant. I believe that God, by God's very nature is beyond any binary. I generally do not care to debate biblical apologetics as I feel it wiser and more genuine to listen to the living Spirit - I believe that if the Word is God, then the Word is alive and deliberately ambiguous so as to prompt each individual aspirant to ponder its meaning in their live. My intuition tells me that God is infinitely creative, and that therefore His image is likewise expresses in infinitely many ways. I am an image of God. You are an image of God. 

 

This is an interesting article about affirmation of genderqueerness. Affirming Theology – The Genderqueer Adam – Robertson-Wesley United Church (rwuc.org)

 

What's also kind of "funny" to me - and I realize this is not orthodox - but what if we read "God created them male and female" with "them" as one individual's pronoun? Then suddenly it's referring to God's creation of each individual as a mix of both male and female. 

 

Your husband tells you to be yourself. It's only unhelpful in that it's not instructive. But evidently, he does support you investigating what that means. It is up to you whether you are driven to take up that challenge. I suspect you are, since you have been in the process of questioning for some time already. But, in my humble opinion, you may need to consider being flexible regarding your beliefs about your "otherness" being problematic. In my personal experience, that was key. I realized I identified as a problem which needed to be solved, else eradicated. I had to let that go to be able to begin to see myself as I really am, and to even appreciate and celebrate myself. It does not happen without effort and support, but it is possible. It is not easy, but it is a most worthwhile endeavor.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

@Vidanjali Interesting about the idea of "genderqueer Adam."  I'm not a religious scholar, but something doesn't seem quite right.  I'm gonna put that one in my husband's hands and see what he thinks.  He definitely HAS taught that God is genderless rather than binary, and that His instructions to refer to Him in the masculine are mostly for our benefit or for respect, rather than accuracy.

 

I generally refer to my husband for instruction in history, politics, and faith.  I actually came to my current understanding of my faith through his first wife, back when we were all just friends and I wasn't part of the family.  But it frustrates me that when he can be so firm on some topics that he seems content to leave my gender an open question.  I wish he could just tell me what to do, and then make it work for me.  😪  I guess part of it is that I hate "adulting."  I didn't really enjoy rules when I was young, but part of me is searching for the boundaries now.  Determining my own is so uncomfortable.