Self presentation troubles (dating related)

[Paul Palmer]

Hello everyone.

Long story short, I am trying to figure out what are my potential relationship options. Relationship interest came late to my life, and I just discovered myself at 27, because I realized that woman sexual role is extremely traumatic for me, woman social role in relationships lead to internal conflicts (a mismatch between how I want to appear to myself and how I want to appear in front of a man), and the only reason I'm into men is because I am gay inside.

I reached out to LGBTQ+ community I have around and online to figure out what to do. I have found at least three hetero-looking gender-swapped queer families (men are bisexual passive guys in these couples), so I think that's the category I have to search through.

Feelds, the queer dating app, is not available in my country, and the rest are super unpopular, social networks are clean from queer content because of laws going strict on LGBTQ+ propaganda, so I have to stick to Tinder and Hornet with a little chance to find someone amongst gays who're just into other gays. I've got a match with a guy just for conversation purpose, and I have mixed feelings after that.

He was very careful and curious about me, asked questions about my pronouns, if I take hormones and so on. The thing is - my pronouns are feminine and I don't want hormones. If I had the level of dysphoria where I would want all of that, I would notice earlier. Most of the time I don't really care what sex and gender I am, I'm absolutely fine with a bit androgynous appearance and sometimes funky behavior (maybe I am bigender rather than true trans). I've got feminine pronouns in real life (to avoid long explanations everywhere) and masculine in personal blog (for fun), both feel right. So, talking to that guy, I was stuck in a thought that I appear fake: all he sees is a unisex dressed girl without 'trans features' like other pronouns, binders etc. Which made me a bit angry: I DO have issues in my head that make me want an active sexual role instead of passive, and I DO have anatomy things that bring a lot to my change of concepts, and even if I didn't, that's how I FEEL, don't I believe in my own existence?..

In many social interactions being on man side is easy and comfortable to me, my behavior makes people treat me like something 'more than a woman', some guys handshake me like a man, when they have some other greeting ritual for women. I don't even have to come out in front of everyone to make people treat me right, it happens by itself. But in a date (or something date-like) I just don't feel confident enough. I.e., my passport name became distant to me this year, but my other name didn't get any closer, I can't introduce myself as Paul.

The guy said, maybe, I should try with a woman first to feel more confidence. I already thought about it before. Of course it's easier to play a man role in front of a woman rather than in front of a man (even if he's other trans and is a girl inside). But I am little to non-bisexual, my man side is 100% gay, and my woman side sees some other women as beautiful and attrective, but it feels like an alien beauty when I am into people 😄. I can't imagine myself dating a woman, and I don't want to force myself into anything I don't like. Didn't I just gave up on heterosexual concept because it doesn't feel right? Here's the same thing. 

It feels now like I need a sexual experience to feel confident. Yes, a 27 y.o. virgin thoughts 😅. But I am the type of person who can hardly become arousal enough to hook up with strangers, I need an emotional connection. And yet I have to do something with confidence. Looking at my latest communication experience I expect to be rejected multiple times - just because gays are real gays, not bi-passive (they're also often call themselves gay in our community). Rejections never break me apart, when I am in a fine mental state, but now I know what I'll be thinking every time: 'it's not because they're into boys, it's because I look fake'.

I am confused. Maybe I should look for other people, maybe I have to do something with my attitude or anything, I don't know.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Ivy]

Well, welcome Paul.

Personally, I can't tell you much.  My situation is very different for a number of reasons.  But Perhaps someone here has something that may help you figure things out better.

[Paul Palmer]

15 minutes ago, Ivy said:

Personally, I can't tell you much.  My situation is very different for a number of reasons.  But Perhaps someone here has something that may help you figure things out better.

My situation is so much different from all of the queer people I know, it adds up to my repetitive questioning of my own existence, mostly in ironical way, but in certain situations it becomes a trouble. I feel like everything finally fits in place in my life, but I never knew that my imaginary male character inside actually means that much, and now I have learn how to live again. It's fun, but it's not very easy.

[Trans22]

Hi Paul,
My situation is different to yours but you might get some value out of my telling it.  At the very least, it may make you feel about about your 27yo virgin status. 

 

I suffered from confusion around my sexuality most of my life - the fuel for the longest period of depression in my former life.  Most of that depression was due to the fact that I have never asked a girl/woman out.  It took a psychologist (about 2 months prior to my 52nd birthday) for me to discover my true self and shed the confusion.

I paid to lose my virginity about a month before my 35 birthday and regretted it.  I kissed a woman for the first time at the age of 36 and entered into my first relationship with a woman at the age of 37.  The relationship was great for about 18 months, before we made love for the first time.  The relationship slowly soured from that day and ended when I was 41yo, probably due to my lack of interest in sex with her.  At the age of 41, I stopped ignoring the numerous signs that I was sexually attracted to men.  At the age of about 45, during a break in my second relationship with a woman (her choice), I had numerous unsafe encounters (e.g., unprotected group sex) that ultimately led to the most erotic and satisfying sexual experience of my life, with a man.  For a few months I was relieved to know that I was a bisexual, bottom male mostly into men.  The confusion around my sexuality increased dramatically, when two different men told me that I wasn't bi or gay because of my preferences.  I suddenly realized that there was no sexuality label that described me.  It wasn't until I replaced the "male" with "female" that I was finally able to define my sexuality - I was born with a heterosexual female mind.

PS.  After starting HRT, I lost all interest in sex and it's probably the part of HRT that I love the most.  I suspect this is a result of far too many years depression fueled by confusion around my sexuality.

[Kerry_Autumn]

Hi Paul, thanks for sharing your situation with us here!

I wanted to share a image with you because I think it might be useful.  From what you wrote I can see you have awareness of the different ways different types of gender and sexual orientations are expressed by different people.  Here's a great visual on all the different spectrum of expression and identity.

https://www.genderbread.org/resource/genderbread-person-v2-1

As to your romantic concerns, my only advice is to keep trying to meet people. There's sure to be folks out there who will accept you as you work through how you feel about your identity.  There are wonderful and supportive people out there.  It took me a long time to find someone who I love and loves me, with allot of heartbreak and confusion in between.  It may be hard, but for me anything would be worth it to have the partner I have now.  I wish the same for you, with as little heartbreak as possible!

I mean, I've been on HRT for about a year and I'm still not sure where everything will land in the end, confusion is part of my reality as I go through the process of sharping my identity and presentation.  I do know that I feel good about the steps I'm taking, so I try not to worry to much about where it'll all land in the end. 

I dunno if any of that is helpful, but I wish you the best as you move forward.

[Paul Palmer]

51 minutes ago, Trans22 said:

It took a psychologist (about 2 months prior to my 52nd birthday) for me to discover my true self and shed the confusion.

Oh, that's dramatic. I know some people who discovered their true selves late in life. One guy realized he was gay after his adult son left home. So despite all of the uncertainties I am glad that my discovery accidentaly happened at 27, not later. But I don't want HRT or transition, my body is feminine, but atrophic, and all of the things In my appearance I worry about can be fixed by exercises and diet. Thet's why I never thought about it much (why wouldn't a hetero guy be into androgynous woman, people have different tastes). After my first relationship I realized that going hetero side won't end up well, and the more I live with the knowledge about different options, the less attraction to my previous concept I have.

I just feel incomplete both sides: hetero way - much easier to find a partner, as I understand now, even though I don't have experience in dating and active search. At least I was raised as a girl and I know what is expected from me. But my mental and physical issues turn this way in a dead end. Homo (to be exact, bi) way - a hardcore level of finding someone of that specific configuration, and no idea of how to act or how to prove myself. I've heard about similar problem from bi girls, who would like to date girls, but have no idea what to be when you're dating a girl. 

I never tried to act 100% masculine, even when I was inside my teenage game of male role, more free from social pressure, than now. If I imagine a man with my character, I really like what I could be. But I don't have an urge to have a man body and am not going to change myself just to let others see me right. That's the main confusion.

[Paul Palmer]

20 minutes ago, Kerry_Autumn said:

From what you wrote I can see you have awareness of the different ways different types of gender and sexual orientations are expressed by different people.  Here's a great visual on all the different spectrum of expression and identity.

According to the pic I am genderqueer and that's exactly how I feel, I don't have any emotional barriers to swith between gender roles, it's mostly the physical barrier that makes me avoid woman side and heterosexual relationship. The other way is a hard road, but promising more freedom (and freedom here is about everything, not only relationship issues). 

25 minutes ago, Kerry_Autumn said:

As to your romantic concerns, my only advice is to keep trying to meet people.

That's what I am trying to do, but it is now sooo much harder than it was. I like someone's photo on social network profile - and they just make their profiles private. In real communication it's even worse, everybody is withdrawn and closed. Dating apps usually have people who are there for fun, because they're not allowed to have a legal families, or simply men looking for other men. When gays and lesbians are known (yet often blamed), trans awareness is so low, that many people haven't heard about queers like me, and that we can look like 'normal' people 😅

[Kerry_Autumn]

@Paul Palmer
I can only begin to imagine the challenges you face living in Russia, I've heard from other Russian friends a little about what a nightmare it can be to be any type LGBTQIA+ person there.  I'm glad you found this forum, I wonder if there are any internet forums or other resources that are more local to you/at least in Russia itself?

A good way I've had luck with for meeting people(friends and romantic) is to volunteer for something where you might encounter like minded folks.  I suspect that'd be more challenging for you living where you do, but it might be worth looking into.
I must say that hearing from you has made me realize just how privileged I am to live where I do and have the family and partner I do.

[Paul Palmer]

5 minutes ago, Kerry_Autumn said:

I can only begin to imagine the challenges you face living in Russia, I've heard from other Russian friends a little about what a nightmare it can be to be any type LGBTQIA+ person there.  I'm glad you found this forum, I wonder if there are any internet forums or other resources that are more local to you/at least in Russia itself?

A good way I've had luck with for meeting people(friends and romantic) is to volunteer for something where you might encounter like minded folks.  I suspect that'd be more challenging for you living where you do, but it might be worth looking into.

Yeah, it's a little bit rebellious thing for teenagers to play hide-and-seek with the system, but many people simply want to live their lives just like everybody else. Most of the queers communicate on Twitter or in closed circles of friends. The reason I am here on this forum is that Russian trans forums are mostly MtF oriented, as they're more visible, and here I see equal representation of everyone. That's actually the reason of my late discovery: for many people who don't know much about LGBTQ+ community trans person is a man in dress, and I had no more knowledge than that. I never understood MtF people as a kid, I thought 'why do they want to appear feminine, if they'd won the life by being born in male bodies? I'm doing the opposite', and never thought what does 'the opposite' mean.

[Trans22]

58 minutes ago, Paul Palmer said:

why do they want to appear feminine, if they'd won the life by being born in male bodies?

I think this is foundation for the anti-trans movement.  The idea that a person who had been born with male privilege would choose to be female challenges their thoughts that men are superior to women.  As an I aside, I often ponder whether the real leaders of trans-activism are far more motivated by increasing male privilege than their having any real understanding of, or interest in improving of, transgender life.  I watched a youtube video where a feminist represented a similar thought.

[Ivy]

40 minutes ago, Trans22 said:

The idea that a person who had been born with male privilege would choose to be female challenges their thoughts that men are superior to women. 

It's a challenge to the patriarchal structure of society.

 

43 minutes ago, Trans22 said:

As an I aside, I often ponder whether the real leaders of trans-activism are far more motivated by increasing male privilege than their having any real understanding of, or interest in improving of, transgender life. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

[Trans22]

37 minutes ago, Ivy said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here.

Just idle pondering about the potential that there are people, with lots of money/power, that are taking advantage of the transgender rights situation to serve their own, separate purpose.  For example, encouraging children to see themselves as transgender and transition, hoping that many will de-transition - the powerful people then use this and the media they control to reinforce their belief that being transgender is a choice.  Maybe I'm just being too cynical.

[Paul Palmer]

4 hours ago, Trans22 said:

I think this is foundation for the anti-trans movement.  The idea that a person who had been born with male privilege would choose to be female challenges their thoughts that men are superior to women.  As an I aside, I often ponder whether the real leaders of trans-activism are far more motivated by increasing male privilege than their having any real understanding of, or interest in improving of, transgender life.  I watched a youtube video where a feminist represented a similar thought.

I never was anti-trans, it was related to my own view that men overall look better than women, and why would they pretend being women if they're already cool enough 😄 Later I understood what a MtF dysphoria is through Anohni's (Antony Hegarty) songs, but again, I didn't link her feelings to mine because I've never felt that bad. I had a dreams about being a man only if they were erotic and I was a top gay wiht another man. Which is now floated into reality, relationship is the only thing where I feel like I don't fit.

I've heard a story about FtM girl dating a guy who came out to her as MtF, and she was so shocked it lead to breakup (they were teens with not so much of understanding and compassion). I thought, honestly, I'd be shocked as well at her age due to lack of information, and it took a long time to realize that these are two equal sides of being trapped in a wrong body. And we, FtM, are even have a privilege for that exact reason of invisibility. We are invisible for ourselves and to the society as well until it goes over crosdressing level and leads to noticeable changes (like HRT or transition): no one will suspect anything in crosdressing biological woman, but if a man does the same, it's a totally different story and a bunch of inappropriate reactions. 

[Trans22]

My comments were never aimed at you or anyone here personally.   My words were in response to the quoted text only.

[Paul Palmer]

2 minutes ago, Trans22 said:

My comments were never aimed at you or anyone here personally.   My words were in response to the quoted text only.

I understand what you mean in your comment, and can relate to. Many transgender people on my side are into feminism, because they want to be treated as men would be and it still makes a difference. Maybe it's my luck that I rarely face such things - despite of queer opression, feminism is quite popular and widespread in Russia. But sometimes I had conversations where a guy is explaining to me, that women will never be as good/professional in some things that traditionally 'belong' to men. Sometimes they mention that I am an exclusion (someone well versed in people usually can feel a slightly different vibe in me), but sometimes they're not, and this is mindblowing. I am always like 'Man, you're talking to someone you think is a woman. About how inferior women are. Where is your vaunted man logic?' Being treated as something third and non-conforming is ok for me, but, I guess, not for everyone. And, of cource, our society still have to do a long journey to accept things like 'trans women are women' and trans rights.

[Vidanjali]

Privyet, @Paul Palmer . I swear, I feel like you're my "brother from another mother". Mother Russia, in this case, lol. I have little advice for you, but loads of empathy. And I'm glad you shared. Just a couple nights ago, I had some major emotional upheaval. I recall chatting in this forum with you in the past and remarking on how much we seemed to have in common - things not so common to others, I think. 

 

I'm married to a cisman. He IDs as hetero, but experience-wise, I'd call him at least heteroflexible as he's had sexual experiences with men. He says he's heterosexual because he only desires relationship with a female. I didn't fully discover my trans nature until a couple years into our marriage. (By the way, Paul, earlier you said something about maybe being bigender and not truly trans. I would point out that trans does not equal binary trans, nor does it equal transition. I understand trans to mean a diversity of non-cis IDs, including bigender. Just a bit of affirmation...) When my husband and I married, I was presenting as "hyperfemme" and hyperheterosexual. I was aware I was performing, but I thought that was the right thing for me to do. I did not understand that not performing was even an option. In fact, I was convinced that not performing would mean death by a thousand cuts. That is, until I reached the point at which I realized that performing was actually killing me. I let go, and discovered I'm trans/masc/nonbinary. I also realized I'm asexual. To complicate things, I also began to understand that I've been romantically attracted to women in my time, but mostly I really feel an affinity towards gay men. Whyyyy??? More and more, I feel like I AM a gay man. But, I don't desire a man's body. If I could snap my fingers and try one on, I would. But, I am not interested in transitioning beyond superficial features in how I dress, wear my hair, etc. I stopped deliberately affecting female mannerisms. I am naturally more "bro-like". 

 

This past weekend I attended a Christmas party with my choir friends, many of whom are gorgeous gay men. Prior to the party, I had a disagreement with my husband. Consequently, he opted out of the party. So, I got a ride there with one of my gay boys named Georgie. Georgie and I have a close relationship...in most ways. We have both agreed that we were lovers in a previous life, and that I was the top. Yet, despite having had 3 deep extensive conversations with him about how I do not ID as a woman, he continues to misgender me in mixed company - for instance, when I'm standing near some women, greeting us collectively as "ladies". It hurts me. Anyway, back to the party. When my husband and I have any tension, I struggle with self-esteem because I start to feel like I have no place in the world. I'm married to a man who thought he married a sexual woman; I cannot abide having sex with him, thus, although we are very affectionate, we do not have a sexual relationship. At the party, I'm surrounded by all these beautiful gay men, and I feel myself akin to them. They probably do not see me that way, though. I flirt with them like they playfully flirt with each other. But, when it comes down to it, they see a woman when they look at me. Lately, I've been struggling with mental health in general. Add tension with my husband, and observing gay male couples at this party who will go home and to bed with each other. I kept having strong emotions swell up in me. I felt like such a misfit, and I feel no one could possibly understand. One friend was recollecting a gay cruise he went on years ago and my immediate thought was delight "I want to go on a gay cruise!", followed by lament "I would never be accepted". I have had thoughts and feelings for a long time regarding how much my asexuality is related to my non-identification with my curvy female body. At the party, I was imagining how intensely validating it would be to be the object of a gay man's sexual desire. It really threw me for a loop. I felt so desperately sad like I didn't want to exist at all anymore. Not like I am as me - someone who doesn't seem to fit in anywhere. The dysphoria and distress I feel when this body of mine is thought of or treated as sexual, and as womanly, is difficult to describe. I feel like I'm being torn apart, and like a dream where you're trying to run but the harder you try, the more sluggish you become. 

 

I had a nice talk about relationships with one of my very adorable gay bfs, and I desperately wanted to share everything with him (I'm not out to most of the folks in this group of friends), but there were others around and it wasn't the time or place. I couldn't emphasize how bad I felt about myself without that context, but I just couldn't go there at the moment. 

 

I got a ride home from the party with some other friends. Later that night, my husband and I finally talked. He is prone to seething and therefore it is not so easy to talk with him. I asked him frank questions, as I have in the past, like why does he stay with me? Wouldn't he be happier with a cishet woman? Etc. I wanted to make it clear that it was not my intention to "trap" him. To be honest, I was not hoping for any specific response from him - I really just wanted to know the truth and I wanted him to know he's free. Ultimately, he said things that he's said before - that he thought he married someone else, that he understands I didn't know who I was when we married, that although he did not envision himself in a celibate relationship that he does not blame me for any of his suffering - that he "blames" life in form for that, and that he adores, loves, and wants to take care of me. 

 

I like being with him. When it's good between us, it's very good. I do rely on him a lot as I'm disabled. I admire and love him. But I really struggle with the notion of being the source of suffering for him, despite what he says. And, I sometimes wonder what my life as a single queer person would be like - not to the extent that I'd end our relationship just out of curiosity.