How Rare Are Androgyns

[Guest ericc]

I've been to LGBT and Transgender meetings and Androgyns, Genderqueer, Third Gender, etc. are no where to be found.

I'm just curious if Androgyns are rare or I'm not going to the right support meetings to meet Androgyns like myself.

[Guest Pioneer]

I think most people who feel that way consider it a phase, or taboo, and bury it underneath their mind and ignore it altogether. Maybe that's why there aren't that many support group surrounding that issue..? My female side isn't as strong as my male side so I don't have to express that part of me for days without bothering me.

[Guest ericc]

Yeah I hear you.

Most Transgender meetings involve either FTM or MTF but rarely anyone who is a mixture of both Masculine / Feminine or neither. I would really love to meet other Androgyns, I wished that there was something in New England that has something to do with the Sub-Spectrum of TransGender or Alternative Genders.

[Guest androgynous]

I think most people who feel that way consider it a phase, or taboo, and bury it underneath their mind and ignore it altogether. Maybe that's why there aren't that many support group surrounding that issue..? My female side isn't as strong as my male side so I don't have to express that part of me for days without bothering me.

I'd like to propose the exact opposite of that. I think many people chose a gender what the gender box since they have too, or get assigned one at birth. Since many people don't know there is a gender card called Androgynous, so they don't pick that card and settle for what's acceptable. I don't think it's a phase, it's a destination in my sincere opinion. So I think people who ARE androgynous but don't know it, choose another gender because that is acceptable for society, since you can't be BOTH in their opinion.

[Guest Pioneer]

I'd like to propose the exact opposite of that. I think many people chose a gender what the gender box since they have too, or get assigned one at birth. Since many people don't know there is a gender card called Androgynous, so they don't pick that card and settle for what's acceptable. I don't think it's a phase, it's a destination in my sincere opinion. So I think people who ARE androgynous but don't know it, choose another gender because that is acceptable for society, since you can't be BOTH in their opinion.

Since people don't know the option of being androgyne as you said, one might consider or choose as anything_________(fill in the blank) that they can make sense out of, including a phase or what have you. But I don't think people always act upon it (choosing another gender aka permanent change that they might regret later) - since they don't know exactly what they want and what's going on with them, let alone come out and seek help/support - compare to burying their feelings and staying as what they are assigned at birth aka their comfort zone are much easier to deal with imo.

[Guest Nire]

I kind of agree with both of you.

maybe there's not more androgynes because (spell check doesn't recognize) the binary so it's kind of like a hidden thing that not many know about. maybe some androgynes can be close enough to their born sex and can maybe kind of function in the binary and perhaps not even know or for their whole lives.

Some maybe try to conform to this even though they don't fit and then you have androgynes who are pretty much the last people that should be in the binary because they are so very not because even mtf and ftm can place themselves in the binary (mostly?).

[Guest androgynous]

Yeah, you raise something very interesting. I think if I never had the Internet to become aware of something like androgyny, I probably never known and probably would have struggled with my sexuality instead of gender the rest of my life.

But if I look back it was so obvious actually. I'm close to my sisters age, born just a year after her, and people always thought we were twins. It now dawns upon me why they thought that. And we actually still do look like each other funny enough.

But then I was to be expected to behave like a boy, and went for that imposed suggestion, until i got mixed up with myself, and my body was giving me hints and clues and certainly DREAMS at night, waking me up to consider what I really was.

[Guest ericc]

Yeah, you raise something very interesting. I think if I never had the Internet to become aware of something like androgyny, I probably never known and probably would have struggled with my sexuality instead of gender the rest of my life.

But if I look back it was so obvious actually. I'm close to my sisters age, born just a year after her, and people always thought we were twins. It now dawns upon me why they thought that. And we actually still do look like each other funny enough.

But then I was to be expected to behave like a boy, and went for that imposed suggestion, until i got mixed up with myself, and my body was giving me hints and clues and certainly DREAMS at night, waking me up to consider what I really was.

Yeah I see what you mean. In my childhood, I felt more confortable hanging out with girls then boys but at the same time my sense of humor was very rough at that was the only thing that I can relate to guys was rough humor.

I just rejoined What is Gender.net and the people over there are more nicer than ever. They were just telling me how Transgender groups have more MTFs and FTMs than us Non-Binaries. I wished that there were social groups for us Non-Binaries.

[Guest Ryles_D]

Non-binaries don't have much acceptance even in the trans community. Too many transpeople feel that non-binaries are just sitting on the fence and will eventually choose a side, and will pressure them accordingly. If the groups you're in have done this, they might've scared off any non-binaries who joined, or any non-binaries who might join have already faced this behavior from the community and are too afraid to risk facing it again.

It also is possible that some binary transpeople are really in the non-binary. I know a few people who transitioned all the way, thinking it was the only option, and aren't any happier because they went too far. I almost fell into this trap, thinking that I had to start on T and be male to get the surgeries I wanted- luckily I realized what a bad idea this was before I started.

[Guest Mesingw]

Non-binaries don't have much acceptance even in the trans community. Too many transpeople feel that non-binaries are just sitting on the fence and will eventually choose a side, and will pressure them accordingly. If the groups you're in have done this, they might've scared off any non-binaries who joined, or any non-binaries who might join have already faced this behavior from the community and are too afraid to risk facing it again.

It also is possible that some binary transpeople are really in the non-binary. I know a few people who transitioned all the way, thinking it was the only option, and aren't any happier because they went too far. I almost fell into this trap, thinking that I had to start on T and be male to get the surgeries I wanted- luckily I realized what a bad idea this was before I started.

Yeah i notice it here too (not that I don't feel welcome nor do I think they are doing it on purpose). I think that FTM and MTF in their own way fit the binary because they subscribe to a single gender. I myself feel kinda alienated by this because i feel like I'm both at any given point in the day. I think though that we are a fairly recent addition to the transgender list so I think it's gonna take a while for that to change. I mean transsexuality is somewhat more accepted (as far as transgenderism goes anyway) because they are able to pick and in that way i envy a lot of transsexuals because they have done what I cannot bring myself to do. I mean part of me wants to transition into a female, but at the same time i know that if i did that my mood would change back to masculine and I would be even more depressed than before.

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[Guest androgynous]

@Mesingw

Yeah I understand, although I don't notice it that much, neither here or elsewhere. But most FTM & MTF are most of the time in a androgyne state as well, whereas we want to maintain it (or just are) they want to make a complete shift to another gender.

But I notice it on myself as well, once I get too feminine or to manly I want to cut back to be balanced. So I put on make-up, bright nail polish and a couple of seconds later I paint over the pink with black polish leaving a couple of nails in a bright color and the others black for example, because when i use only a bright color, I feel too feminine

Same with jewelry, I mix both female & male jewelry, same with clothes.

I could NEVER wear or use products that are only for one gender, it just doesn't feel right.

[Guest Mesingw]

@Mesingw

Yeah I understand, although I don't notice it that much, neither here or elsewhere. But most FTM & MTF are most of the time in a androgyne state as well, whereas we want to maintain it (or just are) they want to make a complete shift to another gender.

But I notice it on myself as well, once I get too feminine or to manly I want to cut back to be balanced. So I put on make-up, bright nail polish and a couple of seconds later I paint over the pink with black polish leaving a couple of nails in a bright color and the others black for example, because when i use only a bright color, I feel too feminine

Same with jewelry, I mix both female & male jewelry, same with clothes.

I could NEVER wear or use products that are only for one gender, it just doesn't feel right.

@Mesingw

Yeah I understand, although I don't notice it that much, neither here or elsewhere. But most FTM & MTF are most of the time in a androgyne state as well, whereas we want to maintain it (or just are) they want to make a complete shift to another gender.

But I notice it on myself as well, once I get too feminine or to manly I want to cut back to be balanced. So I put on make-up, bright nail polish and a couple of seconds later I paint over the pink with black polish leaving a couple of nails in a bright color and the others black for example, because when i use only a bright color, I feel too feminine

Same with jewelry, I mix both female & male jewelry, same with clothes.

I could NEVER wear or use products that are only for one gender, it just doesn't feel right.

Yeah with me it really depends on the day. Like today I feel like being more masculine than feminine so I'm wearing Camo pants and and invader zim t-shirt (although I do have my nails painted black...pink is just not my color...although I do like purple). Most of the clothing I wear is either male or uni gender depending on how I feel on any given day. My selection of jewlery though is much more feminine although I do have pieces that can work for both. Some days I wake up more masculine, others feminine, sometimes neither. The days when it's neither are actually what I prefer because I feel more balanced and at peace.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Strange that this Topic came up. I am not an Androgyne - but am living that life by default (my stage in HRT). My very good friend Mia (who is angrogyne) and I havehad many discussions before she dropped out. I now have to admit I never believed her on androgynous living - thinking there was more to her than she knew - we had such similar needs and wants.

But I finally realized I was 100% wrong. We true transsexual seem to have a blind spot with androgyne people. Funny - of all people we should be more understanding!

Homophobia? Transphobia? - now non-bianary phobia? Or worse, androgynaphobia?

TOOOOO many labels - my head spins.

Anyway - my apologies to you true androgyne people out there. And yes - there are probable crossovers. That is why a gender trained therapist is so important.

And I miss Mia. I don't think she found what she needed here at Laura's - darn!

I would suggest you DO go to the GLBT meetings - get them to add the 'Q'. You need to educate us, just like we trans need to educate the gay community. (Gays don't undersyand transpeople - and I am sure if they can't undersand trans, they have no clue about androgyny!)

Great TOPIC.

Lizzy

[Guest Mesingw]

Strange that this Topic came up. I am not an Androgyne - but am living that life by default (my stage in HRT). My very good friend Mia (who is angrogyne) and I havehad many discussions before she dropped out. I now have to admit I never believed her on androgynous living - thinking there was more to her than she knew - we had such similar needs and wants.

But I finally realized I was 100% wrong. We true transsexual seem to have a blind spot with androgyne people. Funny - of all people we should be more understanding!

Homophobia? Transphobia? - now non-bianary phobia? Or worse, androgynaphobia?

TOOOOO many labels - my head spins.

Anyway - my apologies to you true androgyne people out there. And yes - there are probable crossovers. That is why a gender trained therapist is so important.

And I miss Mia. I don't think she found what she needed here at Laura's - darn!

I would suggest you DO go to the GLBT meetings - get them to add the 'Q'. You need to educate us, just like we trans need to educate the gay community. (Gays don't understand transpeople - and I am sure if they can't undersand trans, they have no clue about androgyny!)

Great TOPIC.

Lizzy

ty. Although I don't think my being at the meeting will add a Q to the group. The reason I say that is that I simply am androgyne. I was questioning prior to figuring out what androgyne was (prior to having to do some research on transgenderism for a project, i had no idea androgyne was even an option). I mean I may feel more male of female on any given day, but the days I like best are the ones where I truly feel like nothing. I'm neither male nor female. It is on these days when my mind is most at peace.

[Guest Ryles_D]

ty. Although I don't think my being at the meeting will add a Q to the group. The reason I say that is that I simply am androgyne. I was questioning prior to figuring out what androgyne was (prior to having to do some research on transgenderism for a project, i had no idea androgyne was even an option). I mean I may feel more male of female on any given day, but the days I like best are the ones where I truly feel like nothing. I'm neither male nor female. It is on these days when my mind is most at peace.

Sorry if I'm misunderstanding anyone- but I believe that Lizzy meant Q for Queer, as in genderqueer- not questioning. If you ask me, the T should be all encompassing. I'm neutrois, and that makes me transgendered. I'm also transitioning, which makes me transsexual. Instead of adding letters- we should try and get people to explain that transgender doesn't just mean MtF and FtM, but also people who don't feel they're strictly male or female.

[Guest androgynous]

@Ryles_D

Yep. 'transgender' encompasses pretty much all of it.

Like Wikipedia says:

Transgender (pronounced /trænzˈdʒɛndər/, from (Latin) derivatives [trans <L, combination form meaning across, beyond, through] and [gender <ME <MF gendre, genre <L gener- meaning kind or sort]) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies that diverge from the normative gender role (woman or man) commonly, but not always, assigned at birth, as well as the role traditionally held by society.

I like: beyond-gender.

[Guest Ryles_D]

@Ryles_D

Yep. 'transgender' encompasses pretty much all of it.

I like: beyond-gender.

That's my understanding, but too many people aren't aware of the non-binary options, either. I don't know if adding letters will help- I'm sure at least some heterocispeople think LGBT is long enough- but making it clear what the pre-existing letters really mean, and that it's more inclusive than some people seem to think. Also, as has been pointed out- Q can be Queer or Questioning, Queer can refer to sexuality or gender and seems to be more associated with sexuality.

As it is is a bit lacking- too many people seem to associate LGBT with strictly homosexual issues, completely ignoring BT- and T seems to be the last one to be acknowledged, and that's just for MtFs and FtMs- androgynes, et al are kind of screwed.

[Guest androgynous]

Yeah true, although I don't really feel comfortable under the term LGBT, maybe for these reasons also.

[Guest Ryles_D]

Yeah true, although I don't really feel comfortable under the term LGBT, maybe for these reasons also.

I don't either, for those reasons. I still don't fully understand why it isn't LGBPAQ (lesbian/gay/bi/pan/a/queer) and TgTsIsGQ (Transgender, Transsexual, Intersexed, GenderQueer)

Admittedly, the latter is a fairly sad achronym- but I'm sure there's a better one. Anyways- the point is that I don't totally get the union of sexuality and gender, it seems like it'll only add to the confusion that some people still think that transpeople are really homosexuals who want to be accepted. I understand there are similarities in our wants- marriage no longer being between a man and a woman would help us, because then it doesn't matter what it says on our birth certificate/driver's license- we can still marry our partner. And if we break down gender boundaries- it'll help those who don't totally conform to the men=masculine=penis or that women=feminine=vagina idea.

[Guest Mesingw]

I don't either, for those reasons. I still don't fully understand why it isn't LGBPAQ (lesbian/gay/bi/pan/a/queer) and TgTsIsGQ (Transgender, Transsexual, Intersexed, GenderQueer)

Admittedly, the latter is a fairly sad achronym- but I'm sure there's a better one. Anyways- the point is that I don't totally get the union of sexuality and gender, it seems like it'll only add to the confusion that some people still think that transpeople are really homosexuals who want to be accepted. I understand there are similarities in our wants- marriage no longer being between a man and a woman would help us, because then it doesn't matter what it says on our birth certificate/driver's license- we can still marry our partner. And if we break down gender boundaries- it'll help those who don't totally conform to the men=masculine=penis or that women=feminine=vagina idea.

I'm not sure why either...but I know that a lot of people in society do not know the difference between sexual orientation and gender. That and I think that a lot of people who are homophobic are also transphobic so I guess as far as social acceptance goes, we are all in the same boat. I do think though that while I don't mind falling under the category of LGBTQ, I do think some abbreviation or acronym needs to be made for the transgender community that includes all the members of it.

[Guest Ryles_D]

I'm not sure why either...but I know that a lot of people in society do not know the difference between sexual orientation and gender. That and I think that a lot of people who are homophobic are also transphobic so I guess as far as social acceptance goes, we are all in the same boat. I do think though that while I don't mind falling under the category of LGBTQ, I do think some abbreviation or acronym needs to be made for the transgender community that includes all the members of it.

Definitely on the homophobia/transphobia thing. I remember the first time I noticed this- I was watching a movie with a young boy with long hair, and tehy kept bugging him about one of two things: he was either gay, or a woman. And that was a very bad thing to be. Most people probably assume it's strictly homophobia- but it's transphobia as well.

There's nothing wrong with combining the two because of how often they seemt o coincide- but too often it's not really combining our forces, so much as LG taking advantage of T to get their rights and acceptance while leaving us in the dust.

[Guest Mesingw]

Definitely on the homophobia/transphobia thing. I remember the first time I noticed this- I was watching a movie with a young boy with long hair, and tehy kept bugging him about one of two things: he was either gay, or a woman. And that was a very bad thing to be. Most people probably assume it's strictly homophobia- but it's transphobia as well.

There's nothing wrong with combining the two because of how often they seemt o coincide- but too often it's not really combining our forces, so much as LG taking advantage of T to get their rights and acceptance while leaving us in the dust.

Yeah thats true. People seem to always talk about how gays and lesbians are discriminated against as if we don't even exist (they forget the T in GLBTQ). I think that half the problem is that gender in modern society is the new race. most of the people I have met who are homophobic have the idea that ALL gay people dress extremely feminine or masculine (depending on the biological sex of the person in question) and that is really the main thing that makes them mad. I have even been asked myself if i was gay because of the way i dress on certain occasions (im not...just androgyne...although i just say im not gay as not to confuse people). I think that if we put more focus on raising awareness transgender rights than gay rights, a lot of the hatred towards gay people and transgender people alike will dissipate. Of course like with race, there will always be nutjobs who will try to bash us every chance they get, we can at least get the general public on our side.

[Guest androgynous]

Yeah we can only hope. But somehow I'm a bit disillusioned by the overall human race. The dogma & ignorance is paramount, almost like a new disease. Why can't people leave each other alone and mind their own business? that's where all these problems come from, they project their view of their world upon others, they are the real socio-psychopaths.

[Guest Mesingw]

Yeah we can only hope. But somehow I'm a bit disillusioned by the overall human race. The dogma & ignorance is paramount, almost like a new disease. Why can't people leave each other alone and mind their own business? that's where all these problems come from, they project their view of their world upon others, they are the real socio-psychopaths.

I ask myself that question every day. I think that some people desire power and what better or faster way to get power than to be a demagogue. That and the rest of them are so insecure about their ideas that unless EVERYONE believes the same thing they do they are uncomfortable and feel persecuted (I find this to be especially true of religious fanatics...who have a field day with me whenever they can both for my gender and for my religious views). Other people simply don't understand things like homosexuality, transgenderism, people of other religions, etc so rather than do the logical thing and research it, they develop this deep fear of it and they then see it as an enemy. I think that this especially true of transgendered people because our very existence challenges the foundation of their beliefs. So they HAVE to hate us in order to make their worldview work calling us freaks of nature.

[Guest Kendall]

Here is what i have found.

Take a group of 2,000 trans people.

1,616 to 1,788 would be cross-dressers & transvestites.

184 to 332 would be transsexuals (pre-ops, post-ops, and non-ops).

28 to 52 would be non-binary.

..of the 28 to 52 non-binary

11 to 21 would identify as mixed or both gender. intergender, androgyne, genderqueer.

4 to 8 would be self-defined or unlabeled. postgender.

3 to 8 would identify as neither or reject gender. agender, nullgender, some androgynes and genderqueer.

3 to 8 would be undecided about their gender identity.

3 to 5 would be multigender, plural gender, two spirited.

2 to 3 would be gender fluid. gender changes over time.

19 to 34 would be born with male bodies.

9 to 16 would be born with female bodies.

1 to 2 would be born with intersex condition.

1 to 2 present themselves as their birth gender and think it is good

10 to 18 would desire to or be taking hormones most will succeed at acquiring them.

2 to 7 will transition to the opposite of birth body, though identify as both, neither, or outside of the binary gender, and like it. they will be part of those taking hormones. the other 8 to 11 will live androgynously and like it.

21 to 39 would dress and appear androgynous 2/3rds full-time, 1/3rd part-time in one or more ways in order of importance...(breasts (bound or grown), hair, body hair, body shape, scent/odor/perfume/cologne, earrings/piercings, tattoos, eyebrows, facial makeup, clothing styles, fingernails, jewelry, clothing colors, skin/condition/color)

just a little information that i have found.

kendall