Is there such a thing as being "legally" female?

[BrentC70]

I'm sorry if this has been addressed, but I am just wondering how documents work and what the definition of "legally" female is.

 

I had my name changed earlier this year, and when I did my driver's license change, the really nice woman at the DMV changed my gender marker to F, all good.

I've read that you can change your marker on your passport easily now.  I don't have one yet but it sounds like that is fine too.

I've also seen where most states (not all) let you change the marker on your birth certificate if you are in "approved" therapy, and I am going to do that too.

 

So I guess that made me think, is there a legal definition of male and female?  Can you be legally female but not have had the GRS?  I guess I thought of this seeing some places like Florida that are defining female as XX and male as XY with no exceptions. To them even a post-op woman is still male.

 

it just all seems so crazy to me.

[BrentC70]

Sorry I didn't mention this note was passed on to me by "unofficial" daughter, I should have noted it comes from her, not from me.

[Ashley0616]

I would like to think there is a way for just about anything and to get all the documents transferred to female then you are legally a female. Although there are MTF's that are being locked up with the men still even though their driver's license states they are female. I'm thinking this is more of a opinionated question. A lot of people are going to say that you weren't born a female that you won't legally one. I wished we lived in a world that wasn't hated on. For instance my Mom stopped for a quick visit and she doesn't agree that I am a female. She doesn't understand what I'm going through but nice thing is she has written me off.  

[VickySGV]

t very largely depends on the state.  In my state you do not need surgery or HRT to legally change the M on your State ID to an F if you are over 18, under you do it with parents permission.  That is actually since my own Transition 12 years ago.  I had to go through a bunch more than is needed today.  Other states may require certification of irreversible hormonal and surgical procedures but doctors are more used to providing them, so it is easier.  The U.S. Department of State will accept your current gender from what is called a "Real ID" issued by your state of residence. 

 

It may be remembered that Supreme Court Justice Ketanji Brown caused a ruckus when she told the Senator interviewing her for confirmation to the SCOTUS that gender definitions existed on a court case by case basis and no one blanket definition  existed.  Even states attempting to write definitions into their laws are getting shredded in court cases.

[Donna_OR]

I just thought I'd jump in here because we dealt with this for my daughter after her transition, largely to do with her getting married to a man.

 

At the time (I'm not sure it's still true), we had to have documentation of her surgery to cross all the T's and make everything nice as far as her paperwork and legal status.  I'm not sure if this is still true and I'm sure it's a state-by-state issue (as has already been mentioned), but it also feels like the non-definition of male and female is allowing some states to set their own rules, like Florida basically saying XX is female and XY is male and that's it.

 

By the way Brent your really should get your daughter to join here as she'd get a lot of great advice.  Not that I should be nagging too much as I got my daughter to join but she refuses to post, but she says she does read the posts here from time to time.

[Madison_1990]

When I was transitioning my therapist said the big three documents were your driver's license, birth certificate, and passport, and until recently passports were really hard to change your gender on until you had the actual surgery.

 

I hope that if you've managed to get all three of those changed you are in pretty good shape, but it's a good question what's considered legally female, especially with some states going crazy with their anti-trans measures lately.

[KathyLauren]

Legal definitions are whatever their creators say they are.  Which means that they vary from one jurisdiction to another.  In the US, each state has its own definition.  In Canada, it is each province.  Elsewhere, it may vary by country or by region (state/province) within the country.

 

Most places accept whatever is on your birth certificate.  But birth certificates can be changed - it's just a piece of paper after all - so is it what's on your original one or your new one?  Most places accepted amendments to birth certificates, but some are now rolling that back to the bad old days. 

 

And what about when your birth certificate can't be changed?  Obviously, the jurisdiction that issued the birth certificate think it has the final word, but other jurisdictions may not agree.  So, for example, I was not able to change my birth certificate for a few years because the issuing jurisdiction said no.  Here, where I live, they were able to come up with a gender certificate that legally recognized my proper gender even without a birth certificate.  So for a while I was legally female in Nova Scotia, but legally male in the UK.  It all worked out in the end, because the legal change in Nova Scotia gave me grounds to legally change my birth certificate in the UK.  So now I am legally female in both places, but not in Florida and/or Texas.

 

Laws are flexible and they are often inconsistent and make no sense.  What gender you are "legally" depends on whom you ask.  The most important standard is the one where you live.  Get that one right and avoid travelling to places that disagree.

 

[Madison_1990]

I just think this is a fascinating subject, especially with some states going after transgender people so much recently. If those documents are legally recognized, I assume other states have to recognize them too, by law.  So I would guess that means other states can't take those rights away, right?

[Ivy]

47 minutes ago, Madison_1990 said:

So I would guess that means other states can't take those rights away, right?

IDK.  Florida is claiming they can nullify custody settlements from other states if the child is in Florida at the time.

 

I changed my name and gender marker on my license and Social Security, and sent off for an amended one from my birth state (NY).  My deadname passport has expired anyway.  I'll probably need the new BC to get a new one with the correct info.  Unfortunately they take their sweet time about changing it.

[Charlize]

I’m sure you could ask a bunch of lawyers and get almost as many answers.  It all depends on the authority you are asking.  I suppose you could get an opinion from the Supreme Court but as it is presently composed I’d rather not go there.

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

[Ivy]

16 minutes ago, Charlize said:

 It all depends on the authority you are asking.

I suppose a lot of this will depend on the next election.

[Lenneth]

On 5/12/2023 at 6:54 PM, Ashley0616 said:

I would like to think there is a way for just about anything and to get all the documents transferred to female then you are legally a female. Although there are MTF's that are being locked up with the men still even though their driver's license states they are female. I'm thinking this is more of a opinionated question. A lot of people are going to say that you weren't born a female that you won't legally one. I wished we lived in a world that wasn't hated on. For instance my Mom stopped for a quick visit and she doesn't agree that I am a female. She doesn't understand what I'm going through but nice thing is she has written me off.  

The only thing that would prove a “hangup,” as far as the system in the States, as far as I understand it, is your SSN. I got the name change, updated all the documentation, but the lady helping me update my Social Security Card told me that, while a process to change your listed sex is being worked on, there is not currently any way to change what the Social Security office identifies you as, and that’s determined by what was between your legs when you were born and they were filling out paperwork.

 

I very well may be mistaken, so please correct me if I’m wrong. I was under the impression that this one hangup is why things like the recent deluge of legislation in Florida makes it possible to be placed in facilities with the incorrect gender population.

[Ivy]

IDK.  I think I changed my gender at the SS last year when I changed my name.  I had to use my Drivers License (which had been changed). Before that, the actual name change was done with the court order.

However, I'm thinking there may be some aspect of the SS number (which doesn't change) that may reflect sex in some manor.  There is no gender on the actual card.

[Madison_1990]

Is there a way to tell what gender SS has listed for me?

 

My SS card is changed to my new name, but mine doesn't have a gender indicated on it either.

[Ivy]

https://blog.ssa.gov/social-security-implements-self-attestation-of-sex-marker-in-social-security-number-records/

 

I took my new Driver's License with the correct gender marker to the SS office.  It was no problem.

[Jani]

3 hours ago, Lenneth said:

there is not currently any way to change what the Social Security office identifies you as, and that’s determined by what was between your legs when you were born and they were filling out paperwork.

@Lenneth This is incorrect. When I went to the Haverhill office of SS and they took my info and it was done.  I received a letter a week or so later saying my record had been updated.  

 

Jani

[Lenneth]

2 hours ago, Jani said:

@Lenneth This is incorrect. When I went to the Haverhill office of SS and they took my info and it was done.  I received a letter a week or so later saying my record had been updated.  

 

Jani

Hmmm. I’ll have to look into it again. Thanks. The lady told me specifically I was going to be listed as male in their system despite the change of name because there was no way to change it. I appreciate the correction!

[Ivy]

I was told it was changed at the time.  I've never checked back on it.

I do carry a copy of my name change tucked in an obscure pocket of my purse.  I haven't gotten my amended birth certificate back yet (it takes forever) but I do have my driver's license.

 

I've seen some people having concerns about carrying the name change info, as it could lead to being dead-named.  

I don't see how they could revoke the name change itself.  But some states are working on not accepting an amended birth certificate for your gender.

[ChloeL]

I just saw this thread and I think it's interesting because I was at a hospital clinic a few weeks ago when I had COVID, and the woman collecting my health information in the examination room asked me if I'd had my period recently, which I assume means in my medical records I am listed as genetically female.

 

It really makes me think about all the places where our gender is noted, and how they do that.  Was that just from my driver's license saying "F" for my sex?

 

I really appreciate everyone explaining all of this, it's so difficult to understand when I just want the world to accept me for who I am.