Gender Dysphoria, But Not Trans?

[AllieJ]

5 hours ago, KathyLauren said:

Or maybe about the gender identity you were assigned at birth? 

You were assigned a Sex at birth. Gender Identity is how you see yourself and that takes a few years to realise. 

 

It may seem pedantic, but these terms are important, and the mixing up of the two creates many of the misconceptions which lead of oppression of our community. For instance, Transgender means changing gender and likely the basis for conversion practices. Conservatives see us as choosing a cross gender for pleasure, and not legitimate, and the term transgender supports this view. Given the raft of oppressive laws sweeping the world, I would think we would be keen to fight this any way we can. Getting our terminology right would put us all on the same page and give us a stronger voice.

 

Emealdmountain2, I would agree that if you feel Gender dysphoria  you fall under the current umbrella, but not all of us feel Gender dysphoria (though I think this may be more that they don't recognise the feeling.)

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[AllieJ]

5 hours ago, Betty K said:

@AllieJ: Also, w/r/t the APA being the so-called authority on what is or is not transgender, I would like to see a move towards trans people defining what trans identity is, not psychologists. Since the recognised diagnosis is now gender dysphoria, I don’t see the need for trans identity as a whole to be mandated by the medical profession. “Transgender” now describes an identity group, like L, G, B and Q. Do psychologists get to decide who is L, G, B, or Q? 

 

Betty K, on this we strongly agree! WPATH relies heavily on the APA, and this is why they have been the authority, but much of the terminology and policies were developed by academics who really had no understanding of Gender Diverse people. It is time for actual Gender Diverse peoples to determine these important descriptors.

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[Betty K]

1 hour ago, AllieJ said:

Betty K, on this we strongly agree! WPATH relies heavily on the APA, and this is why they have been the authority, but much of the terminology and policies were developed by academics who really had no understanding of Gender Diverse people. It is time for actual Gender Diverse peoples to determine these important descriptors.

 

That's great, but if that's how you feel then why not just respect the way most trans people define the term now -- ie, as related to gender identity (as in my earlier comment) rather than gender expression (as in the APA link you cited)? I get that you don't like the word in any case, but why prioritise the views of cis doctors over trans people?

[Betty K]

1 hour ago, AllieJ said:

For instance, Transgender means changing gender and likely the basis for conversion practices. Conservatives see us as choosing a cross gender for pleasure, and not legitimate, and the term transgender supports this view.

 

The prefix "trans" means "across", "beyond", or "on the other side of".

 

As to gender, the most common definition seems to be, roughly, "the behavioral, cultural, or psychological traits typically associated with one sex" (Merriam Webster). Oxford says, "the male sex or the female sex, especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female". The WHO says (contentiously), "Gender refers to the characteristics of women, men, girls and boys that are socially constructed."

 

Judith Butler argues that "Gender reality is performative which means, quite simply, that it is real only to the extent that it is performed".

 

You could argue that some or all of these definitions are wrong. But, since the definition of "gender" is in such a state of flux, I don't think you could argue that any other definition is more correct. Imo, it really depends on context.

 

Is gender innate and unchanging from birth? Not according to Merriam Webster or Judith Butler. Maybe gender identity is unchanging, though even that assertion is contentious and unproven, and seems to contradict the lived experiences of many genderfluid people.

 

For all these reasons, I think "transgender" is a reasonably accurate word. It suits me, at least. It means that I am "beyond" culturally-coded notions of gender. It means that I refuse to perform gender as my sex assigned at birth dictates I should. I even feel that I had to go "across" something -- my understanding of myself, for most of my adult life, as a man -- to get here.

 

As to why conservatives hate us, I'd say most of it is visceral lizard-brain aversion based on religious and cultural conditioning. Maybe a rebranding would help, as was achieved among environmentalists with "climate change" vs "global warming", but I doubt it.

[AllieJ]

As I posted, I see the term as damaging to our community, and call for our community to come up with something more accurate. Yes, of course you will find conservative descriptions of Gender and Identity as not fixed, and this is the basis of Conversion practices, but, though practised for decades, conversion has not been successful, and found to be harmful. You will find almost all medical bodies now oppose conversion therapies and support that Gender Identity cannot be changed. This is also the position of the APA and WPATH, and in many places now, conversion therapy is illegal. This is why I said Transgender is an oxymoron, and we need to dump it. 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

 

 

[Betty K]

7 minutes ago, AllieJ said:

Yes, of course you will find conservative descriptions of Gender and Identity as not fixed

 

It is not just conservatives who doubt that gender is fixed. I recently polled a bunch of (mostly younger) trans folk on a local Facebook group and the vast majority of them did not believe that gender identity is fixed. You can find that opinion in many places in the trans community. And as I've said, I would rather listen to trans people themselves than medical bodies, at least at this stage in history.

 

I would be curious to know what your explanation of genderfluid people is?

[AllieJ]

6 minutes ago, Betty K said:

 

It is not just conservatives who doubt that gender is fixed. I recently polled a bunch of (mostly younger) trans folk on a local Facebook group and the vast majority of them did not believe that gender identity is fixed. You can find that opinion in many places in the trans community. And as I've said, I would rather listen to trans people themselves than medical bodies, at least at this stage in history.

 

I would be curious to know what your explanation of genderfluid people is?

 

Most trans people have different understandings of their gender identity through their lives, most of us start with thinking we are crossdressers, then move on to a range of other understandings. We are all part of a spectrum of understanding of our incongruence. If gender identity is fluid, then in the decades of conversion practices there would have been adequate successes to validate the practice. Though it was a horrible part of our history, the failed conversion practices proved that Gender Identity is fixed. Genderfluid people are just part of the spectrum of understandings. 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[Betty K]

4 minutes ago, AllieJ said:

Though it was a horrible part of our history, the failed conversion practices proved that Gender Identity is fixed.

Allie, that is such faulty reasoning. There could have been many reasons conversion practices didn’t work. Maybe they were just poorly conceived. Or maybe it’s not possible to influence a person’s gender identity externally but it is possible for it to change for internal reasons. Whatever the case, “proof” requires more than that.

 

9 minutes ago, AllieJ said:

Genderfluid people are just part of the spectrum of understandings. 

I don’t understand what that means. Do you mean that genderfluid people just think they are genderfluid but that really their gender identities are fixed? 

[KayC]

@Betty K I had to Google your mention of Susan Stryker (since I didn't know who she is) ... and I found this video very interesting.  Even though it's 7 year old I think she brings up some great points about the uneasiness in trying to categorize or label Trans into a homogeneous group ... or even to stratify and stigmatize different sectors of our community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ7JfjnuxeU

 

And as we know here ... we're not homogeneous

[Betty K]

8 minutes ago, KayC said:

@Betty K I had to Google your mention of Susan Stryker (since I didn't know who she is) ... and I found this video very interesting.  Even though it's 7 year old I think she brings up some great points about the uneasiness in trying to categorize or label Trans into a homogeneous group ... or even to stratify and stigmatize different sectors of our community.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ7JfjnuxeU

 

And as we know here ... we're not homogeneous

 

Awesome, thanks Kay! I love it. I also highly recommend her book Transgender History.

 

Here's Stryker's definition of "transgender" from that book:

 

"Transgender is a word that has come into widespread use only in the past couple of decades, and its meanings are still under construction. I use it in this book to refer to people who move away from the gender they were assigned at birth, people who cross over (trans-) the boundaries constructed by their culture to define and contain that gender. Some people move away from their birth-assigned gender because they feel strongly that they properly belong to another gender through which it would be better for them to live; others want to strike out toward some new location, some space not yet clearly described or concretely occupied; still others simply feel the need to challenge the conventional expectations bound up with the gender that was initially put upon them. In any case, it is the movement across a socially imposed boundary away from an unchosen starting place, rather than any particular destination or mode of transition, that best characterises the concept of transgender that I develop here. I use transgender in its broadest possible sense."

 

@KathyLauren, you'll note that Stryker uses the term "gender assigned at birth" too. Imo, as obviously in Stryker's, there is nothing wrong with that term. We are assigned a sex, yes. I would say we are also assigned a gender.

[AllieJ]

48 minutes ago, Betty K said:

Allie, that is such faulty reasoning. There could have been many reasons conversion practices didn’t work. Maybe they were just poorly conceived. Or maybe it’s not possible to influence a person’s gender identity externally but it is possible for it to change for internal reasons. Whatever the case, “proof” requires more than that.

 

I don’t understand what that means. Do you mean that genderfluid people just think they are genderfluid but that really their gender identities are fixed? 

 

Sorry Betty, I can't in the space here prove everything to your satisfaction, but in 50 years of conversion therapy, I expect they tried everything they could think of, and many victims themselves would have so wanted to make themselves congruent, but they couldn't. 

 

As I said, all of us have varying understandings of our gender identity and that includes gender fluid people. While their gender is fixed, their understanding of it may change. This is not to say that there is no variance in that fixed gender at birth.

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[emeraldmountain2]

I really just meant this to be an open discussion of the question and to gather differing viewpoints.

 

However, to answer a couple of people's questions, I know I have physical and social gender dysphoria, but the levels can fluctuate. My gender dysphoria has lessened since starting HRT and socially transitioning. I sometimes feel like my gender assigned at birth (yes, I said gender assigned at birth because I am talking about the social and cultural expectations towards my sex). If I were to use common parlance, I guess that would make me transgender > nonbinary > genderfluid, although I try to stay away from labels. On the other hand, I feel like I am battling against a lifetime of repression, which makes me wonder if there is something "more" to my identity. By the common definition, I am transgender, yet for some reason I have a hard time calling myself transgender and believing that I am transgender. Weird, I know.

[KathyLauren]

4 hours ago, AllieJ said:

You were assigned a Sex at birth. Gender Identity is how you see yourself and that takes a few years to realise. 

...

Transgender means changing gender and likely the basis for conversion practices. Conservatives see us as choosing a cross gender for pleasure, and not legitimate, and the term transgender supports this view.

 

 

Your terminology and mine obviously come from different dictionaries. 

 

As I see it, sex isn't something that is assigned.  It is just the configuration of the genitals, and it is observed, not assigned.  What is assigned at birth is a (provisional) gender identity: "boy" or "girl" are gender identities. 

 

I have never thought of "transgender" meaning changing gender.  In fact, the idea makes me quite uncomfortable.  I know of people who are transgender but who choose not to transition. 

 

It just feels wrong to me that you would have to change something to be considered transgender.  I was transgender before I was born, and have been transgender all my life.  During a small portion of that time, I was transitioning, but I have always been transgender.  And when I was transitioning, I wasn't changing my gender identity.  I was changing my gender role, gender presentation and some paperwork.  My gender identity has always been what it is.

[AllieJ]

2 minutes ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I really just meant this to be an open discussion of the question and to gather differing viewpoints.

 

However, to answer a couple of people's questions, I know I have physical and social gender dysphoria, but the levels can fluctuate. My gender dysphoria has lessened since starting HRT and socially transitioning. I sometimes feel like my gender assigned at birth (yes, I said gender assigned at birth because I am talking about the social and cultural expectations towards my sex). If I were to use common parlance, I guess that would make me transgender > nonbinary > genderfluid, although I try to stay away from labels. On the other hand, I feel like I am battling against a lifetime of repression, which makes me wonder if there is something "more" to my identity. By the common definition, I am transgender, yet for some reason I have a hard time calling myself transgender and believing that I am transgender. Weird, I know.

 

I only use the term Transgender as that's what other people know, but I really don't fit into any box, so I am just me!

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[Betty K]

5 minutes ago, AllieJ said:

While their gender is fixed, their understanding of it may change.

Okay so, in a nutshell, you say that you want to see a move toward trans people defining what trans identity is but when a group of trans people — genderfluid people — attempt to help do so, you ignore them. Every definition of gender fluidity that I have ever heard or read refers to gender identity being fluid for these people. If you claim that gender identity is always fixed then you are denying the existence of gender fluidity. You are denying their identity. Is that really what you want to say here?

 

As to the conversion therapy thing, I’m not asking you to prove it. You claimed you had already proven it and I pointed out your reasoning was faulty. It is entirely possible that conversion therapy was tried only on the most binary of trans folk. It is possible that genderfluid folk are a tiny minority. It is possible that, with such a limited knowledge of gender as most people had in the era of widespread conversion therapy, they just couldn’t crack the code. And, as I said, it’s possible that conversion therapy simply doesn’t work but gender is still fluid. I’m not begrudging you your opinion, but when you falsely claim something is proven you are begrudging me mine.

 

20 minutes ago, AllieJ said:

This is not to say that there is no variance in that fixed gender at birth.

I don’t understand what this means.

[AllieJ]

9 hours ago, KathyLauren said:

 

Your terminology and mine obviously come from different dictionaries. 

 

As I see it, sex isn't something that is assigned.  It is just the configuration of the genitals, and it is observed, not assigned.  What is assigned at birth is a (provisional) gender identity: "boy" or "girl" are gender identities. 

 

I have never thought of "transgender" meaning changing gender.  In fact, the idea makes me quite uncomfortable.  I know of people who are transgender but who choose not to transition. 

 

It just feels wrong to me that you would have to change something to be considered transgender.  I was transgender before I was born, and have been transgender all my life.  During a small portion of that time, I was transitioning, but I have always been transgender.  And when I was transitioning, I wasn't changing my gender identity.  I was changing my gender role, gender presentation and some paperwork.  My gender identity has always been what it is.

 

Kathy, absolutely we have read different dictionaries! I read the one that said Sex is what is between your legs, and Gender is what is between your ears! At birth, all they can assign is what is between your legs! This is why I am pushing for a better terminology to clear up these misunderstandings.

 

This screen shot is from a more current (2022) understanding in law of this mess you might find interesting.  But for some reason the site will not let me give the link to the paper by Duke University

 

Link to the paper by Duke University

https://scholarship.law.duke.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5030&context=lcp

 

Hugs,

 

Allie 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11 by Susan R
Added Duke University URL

[emeraldmountain2]

Thank you @Betty K for standing up for genderfluid people.

4 minutes ago, Betty K said:

It is entirely possible that conversion therapy was tried only on the most binary of trans folk. It is possible that genderfluid folk are a tiny minority. It is possible that, with such a limited knowledge of gender as most people had in the era of widespread conversion therapy, they just couldn’t crack the code.

Regardless, I would not want to undergo conversion therapy because I find it repugnant and I don't want to change who I am, nor succumb to others' expectations of who I should be!

[emeraldmountain2]

1 minute ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I don't want to change who I am, nor succumb to others' expectations of who I should be!

I spent a lifetime doing that and I'm done with it!

[Betty K]

11 minutes ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

Thank you @Betty K for standing up for genderfluid people.

Regardless, I would not want to undergo conversion therapy because I find it repugnant and I don't want to change who I am, nor succumb to others' expectations of who I should be!

 

Oh, you're welcome. And I also find conversion therapy repugnant, of course! And I strongly suspect it probably just doesn't work ever. But it's a big jump from saying conversion therapy doesn't work to saying that gender can never be fluid. You could make that hypothesis, but a hypothesis is not proof.

 

37 minutes ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

On the other hand, I feel like I am battling against a lifetime of repression, which makes me wonder if there is something "more" to my identity.

 

I can totally relate to this. I have been transitioning for 18 months and, for much of that time, I have tried to be satisfied with the idea that I am non-binary -- a very feminine form of non-binary, but still non-binary. I even tried to avoid using the term "trans woman" because I did not want to make any bold claims to womanhood, and I still feel uncomfortable with it, even though my birth certificate and ID now all says "female". But increasingly I feel as if that may be my social conditioning talking, telling me that I can't be a woman because I don't pass, because I was socialised as a man, and because society won't widely accept me as a woman. As Susan Stryker says in Transgender History, "I know that I can never align everything the way cisgender people do and that there will always be some discordance and incongruence. For me, that means that, even though I identify as a transsexual woman, I am also, in practice, unavoidably gender nonconforming, genderqueer, and nonbinary."

 

I know what I'm describing is not the same as what you are experiencing, but I think it might be similar. Maybe you have some kind of conditioning around the word "transgender" just as I have around the word "woman"? Maybe you feel that it's too bold a claim to call yourself transgender? Or maybe you just don't feel the word fits you? You say you try to stay away from labels -- maybe that's because you are early in your journey of self-discovery and you don't want to set anything in stone? If so, I think that is wise.

[KatieSC]

For those of us who are truly transgender and not gender fluid, perhaps there should be consideration of being intersected in regard to our brains. If genitalia can be deemed ambiguous, the brain as a locus of our being is certainly something to consider. 

 

As for dysphoric, I am politically dysphoric. 

[Betty K]

51 minutes ago, KathyLauren said:

As I see it, sex isn't something that is assigned.  It is just the configuration of the genitals, and it is observed, not assigned. 

 

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, Kathy Lauren, but this part is simply not true. Sex is assigned. There are many factors that define a human being's sex, and no doctor assesses all of them at a child's birth. The doctor makes an educated guess, based mostly on the child's genitals, and is sometimes wrong.

[emeraldmountain2]

Thank you @Betty Kfor your thoughtful reply.

 

I can also really relate to your experiences and thought processes.

 

7 minutes ago, Betty K said:

Maybe you have some kind of conditioning around the word "transgender" just as I have around the word "woman"?

 

This is probably so.

 

8 minutes ago, Betty K said:

Maybe you feel that it's too bold a claim to call yourself transgender? Or maybe you just don't feel the word fits you?

 

This as well.

 

8 minutes ago, Betty K said:

You say you try to stay away from labels -- maybe that's because you are early in your journey of self-discovery and you don't want to set anything in stone? I

 

Yes, and I tend to perseverate about labels, so I try my best to ditch them, but it's not easy.

[Betty K]

1 minute ago, KatieSC said:

politically dysphoric.

 

Ooh, this has piqued my curiosity. What does that mean?

 

1 minute ago, KatieSC said:

For those of us who are truly transgender and not gender fluid

 

Um, genderfluid people are truly transgender. Just saying.

[Betty K]

1 minute ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

Yes, and I tend to perseverate about labels, so I try my best to ditch them, but it's not easy.

 

You just taught me a new word: "perseverate". I get the feeling maybe if you wait long enough a label will just seem comfortable.

[KathyLauren]

45 minutes ago, AllieJ said:

 

 

 

This table pretty much describes the way I use the terms.