Gender Dysphoria, But Not Trans?

[KatieSC]

1 minute ago, Betty K said:

 

Ooh, this has piqued my curiosity. What does that mean?

Honestly, I am not sure, but it sounds like a great sound bite. "Politically dysphoric!" 

 

Maybe for the person who looks at the political fighting and marginalization in our country, and they become confused by the lack of willingness of the politicians to dwell on real issues. That is just me spit-balling.

 

I like it.

[KathyLauren]

5 minutes ago, Betty K said:

genderfluid people are truly transgender. Just saying.

 

No doctor or midwife ever said, "Congratulations, Mrs. Smith, your baby is genderfluid", so by the definitions I use, genderfluid is included in transgender.

[Betty K]

1 minute ago, KatieSC said:

Honestly, I am not sure, but it sounds like a great sound bite. "Politically dysphoric!" 

 

Maybe for the person who looks at the political fighting and marginalization in our country, and they become confused by the lack of willingness of the politicians to dwell on real issues. That is just me spit-balling.

 

I like it.

 

I think it would be hard to be trans and not be politically dysphoric at this time in history.

[Betty K]

1 minute ago, KathyLauren said:

 

No doctor or midwife ever said, "Congratulations, Mrs. Smith, your baby is genderfluid", so by the definitions I use, genderfluid is included in transgender.

 

Lol, that is a very difficult scenario to imagine.

[emeraldmountain2]

17 minutes ago, KatieSC said:

For those of us who are truly transgender and not gender fluid, perhaps there should be consideration of being intersected in regard to our brains.

I consider genderfluid people to be transgender. No offense, I understand the term "truly transgender," but I and others also view the terms "truly transgender" or "tru trans" exclusionary. They are also terms weaponized by TERF's to attack trans people who don't fit the mold, as well as all trans people in general.

 

We don't even know scientifically what causes people to be transgender. Who is to say that genderfluid people also do not have a neurological basis for their identity? People's brains are wired differently. Maybe brain development in the womb differentiates gender identity across a spectrum, not in a binary fashion (as evidenced by the fact that nonbinary people with physical gender dysphoria exist).

[Betty K]

6 minutes ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I and others also view the terms "truly transgender" or "tru trans" exclusionary.

 

I hate any attempt to put trans people in a hierarchy.

 

8 minutes ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

Who is to say that genderfluid people also do not have a neurological basis for their identity?

 

I just want to make clear, even if there is no neurological basis for a trans person's identity, that does not render their identity invalid. I know that's not what you're trying to say, but I just want to footnote that.

[emeraldmountain2]

14 minutes ago, Betty K said:

I just want to make clear, even if there is no neurological basis for a trans person's identity, that does not render their identity invalid.

100% agree!

[MaeBe]

3 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

By the common definition, I am transgender, yet for some reason I have a hard time calling myself transgender and believing that I am transgender.

I have struggled with this for some time and have recently come out to friends. I heavily caveat it with "I don't know where I will end up, but..", I feel like using "trans/transfemme" (even if they have no idea what that means) exposes them to someone they've known a long time along with those labels. Essentially socializing the term, even though I struggle with being defined by them. I don't feel defined by them, but people seem to need to know "what you are"; ambiguous statements like "I'm leaning toward the feminine" help but that may lose people and ignore the fact that they now know someone of trans experience.

[KatieSC]

10 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I consider genderfluid people to be transgender. No offense, I understand the term "truly transgender," but I and others also view the terms "truly transgender" or "tru trans" exclusionary. They are also terms weaponized by TERF's to attack trans people who don't fit the mold, as well as all trans people in general.

 

We don't even know scientifically what causes people to be transgender. Who is to say that genderfluid people also do not have a neurological basis for their identity? People's brains are wired differently. Maybe brain development in the womb differentiates gender identity across a spectrum, not in a binary fashion (as evidenced by the fact that nonbinary people with physical gender dysphoria exist).

I just want to apologize if my wording upset anybody. I am probably wrong in what I said. I am sorry. I did not mean to offend anybody. I will admit that I am not sure about the concept of fluidity. 

[KatieSC]

10 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

I consider genderfluid people to be transgender. No offense, I understand the term "truly transgender," but I and others also view the terms "truly transgender" or "tru trans" exclusionary. They are also terms weaponized by TERF's to attack trans people who don't fit the mold, as well as all trans people in general.

 

We don't even know scientifically what causes people to be transgender. Who is to say that genderfluid people also do not have a neurological basis for their identity? People's brains are wired differently. Maybe brain development in the womb differentiates gender identity across a spectrum, not in a binary fashion (as evidenced by the fact that nonbinary people with physical gender dysphoria exist).

Emerald,

 

Without a doubt, our brains have to be involved in all of this no matter who we are, or where we fall on the spectrum. The fact that so many of us have similar issues with gender dysphoria clearly make the case that we are not just coincidences of nature. One of the other forums mentioned someone in West Virginia wants to cure being transgender. Like that is really going to happen.

 

I do not think there are many on this forum that have not had to struggle with where we are in the grand scheme of things when it comes to being transgender. The time being sullen, angry, confused, ambivalent, and some other darker thoughts are not just isolated to a few. Our journeys are not easy, and I scoff at people that think this is all just a whim.

[Betty K]

56 minutes ago, KatieSC said:

I just want to apologize if my wording upset anybody

Hi Katie. You didn’t upset me at all. I just don’t like the idea that any one of us is more or less trans than anyone else. “Transgender”, as it is understood by trans advocacy groups across the western world, is a deliberately inclusive term, and has been for decades. But I understand that the media and internet are currently bombarding us with various interpretations of the word and its meaning can therefore sometimes be obscured. 

[emeraldmountain2]

1 hour ago, KatieSC said:

I just want to apologize if my wording upset anybody. I am probably wrong in what I said. I am sorry. I did not mean to offend anybody. I will admit that I am not sure about the concept of fluidity. 

Hi @KatieSC. Thank you for saying this, but just speaking for myself, I wasn't upset and no apology is needed. I'm sorry I might have given you the impression I was upset.

[Vidanjali]

Can you be gender dysphoric, but not trans? I think, yes.

 

I've read through all the posts and I will emphasize a few points. 

 

"Sex assigned at birth" is the common parlance. I think that is accurate as it is performed by a medical or birthing professional and refers to observable sex traits, although there are many variable sex traits which are not ostensible without medical testing. (To wit, the intersex community is likely much vaster than we currently realize. Many intersex people do not realize they are intersex until medical testing comes up in some other context.) In an abstract manner, gender is also assigned at birth by society, culture, history, family, religion, etc. to be congruent with the assigned sex. 

 

Gender relates to your personal sense of who you are (your identity), how you experience inhabiting your own body, how the society in which you live interacts with your body, how you present yourself in the world given societal expectations and norms, and your relative level of harmony or disharmony with all these factors. 

 

Trans means to go beyond. Therefore, transgender describes that which is beyond the commonly accepted gender paradigm corresponding to sex assigned at birth within a given society, culture, historical setting, religion, family, etc. It is a common misperception to equate transgender with transition, but they are two different words with different meanings. Transition is the action of going beyond and in the context of transgender refers to action taken to realize gender congruence in some way, be it social transition, use of pronouns, fashion, adornments, physical attributes, hormones, surgery, etc. Transition is not required to be transgender. Moreover, it is not always safe, available, or affordable. (For clarity, by "safe" I mean a transgender person wishing to transition may be living in such a context that they would incur abuse and even danger to their life should they transition.)

 

Gender dysphoria refers to psychological distress that results from an incongruence between one’s sex assigned at birth and one’s gender identity (according to American Psychiatric Association). Such incongruence can be experienced in myriad ways. I believe an individual can experience gender dysphoria without identifying as transgender. Broadly, an individual might experience incongruence with how society, culture, etc. expects a person with particular ostensible genitals to be, but still identify as the gender typically corresponding to that sex. A few hypothetical examples: a butch woman, a dandy man, a person raised within ultra orthodox religion, a stay at home father, a woman who works in an historically male-dominated field. I imagine there could be psychological distress experienced in such scenarios due to incongruence between what is expected of their gender and how they feel about themselves naturally. But, these hypothetical people are not necessarily transgender, although semantically their experience is described by the above definition of transgender.

 

So, the question arises: what is it about the nature of the psychological distress experienced with gender dysphoria that distinguishes transgender experience? I would say that there is the element of at least partial disidentification with the gender associated with the sex assigned at birth. This is contrasted by the examples given above if we assume they are cisgender people who might technically experience gender dysphoria, but still identify with the gender associated with sex assigned at their birth.

 

Conversely, it must be noted that gender dysphoria is not required to be transgender. I believe neither of the following statements is true: I experience gender dysphoria, therefore I am transgender. I am transgender, therefore I experience gender dysphoria. As noted above, technically it may well be the case that gender dysphoria can be experienced by cisgender people. And not all transgender people experience gender dysphoria. Moreover, it is becoming more apparent that gender euphoria is a better indication of transgender identity. 

[MaeBe]

9 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

Moreover, it is becoming more apparent that gender euphoria is a better indication of transgender identity.

I'd love to have a reference for this, if you have one. Not because I don't believe you but because I love it and would love to read it and share.

[emeraldmountain2]

Very well-thought out response @Vidanjali. Thank you for sharing.

 

I agree that gender euphoria is also a very important facet of understanding the transgender experience.

 

As controversial as it is, as well as the controversy surrounding some of the people who designed the diagnostic criteria, the DSM states:

 

"The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least two of the following:

• A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
• A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
• A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender
• A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

In order to meet criteria for the diagnosis, the condition must also be associated with clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning."

 

(https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria)

 

As defined by the DSM, I guess gender dysphoria would indirectly label a person as transgender? Is it possible to have at least two of the criteria and not be trans? I don't know.

[Vidanjali]

2 hours ago, MaeBe said:

I'd love to have a reference for this, if you have one. Not because I don't believe you but because I love it and would love to read it and share.

 

Certainly.

 

An excerpt from the conclusion of this paper:

"Gender euphoria may be a target for future clinical and public health interventions seeking to increase resilience while reducing psychological distress, gender dysphoria, and alcohol misuse; future longitudinal research is needed. Consistent with prior qualitative research (Jacobsen and Devor, 2022), gender euphoria may be as or more important for TGD people than dysphoric negative gender-related emotions." 

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165178123004912

 

Here's the article referenced in the above quotation & excerpt from their conclusion.

 

"Our findings underscore the potential for harms that can be created by the medical model’s focus on dysphoria and distress in trans experiences. Instead, we emphasize the value of prioritizing supporting euphoria, happiness, and safety when asking about trans people’s transition goals."

 

https://bulletin.appliedtransstudies.org/article/1/1-2/6/

 

[Vidanjali]

2 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

"The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in adolescents and adults as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and their assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least two of the following:

• A marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and primary and/or secondary sex characteristics (or in young adolescents, the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)
• A strong desire to be rid of one’s primary and/or secondary sex characteristics because of a marked incongruence with one’s experienced/expressed gender (or in young adolescents, a desire to prevent the development of the anticipated secondary sex characteristics)

 

A cis woman with very large breasts who is distressed about being perceived or treated as overly sexualized or fetishized? 

 

I suppose one could stretch one's imagination, but another question arises. While broadly cis people might could experience gender dysphoria as I described earlier, to what end might a cis person seek a clinical diagnosis via DSM 5? Or to what end might a clinician apply the diagnosis to a cis person? So, context matters & indeed the clinical diagnostic criteria do seem to relate specifically to trans folks. 

 

2 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

• A strong desire for the primary and/or secondary sex characteristics of the other gender

 

Because there's only one other gender, right, DSM 5? They could use a primer on difference between gender, sex, and sex variance. The irony. 

 

2 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

• A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

 

Then they were like, "See? We fixed it with a parenthetical comment." Can you imagine the conversation in the room which led to that appendage? It sounds invalidating, or maybe it's my gender dysphoria talking, lol. Like, "We still maintain that there's the one gender and the other (i.e. two genders), but we'll diagnosis you based on your imaginary alternative gender too." 

 

2 hours ago, emeraldmountain2 said:

•  

 

Lol I didn't mean to break the quote here & can't delete the bullet point or this text box using my phone. Sorry! I'll just pretend you were being artfully laconic, emerald, and that I was impressed 😜

[emeraldmountain2]

14 minutes ago, Vidanjali said:

I'll just pretend you were being artfully laconic, emerald, and that I was impressed 😜

[AllieJ]

And while we are pulling apart DSM-5:

 

• A strong desire to be of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• A strong desire to be treated as the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• A strong conviction that one has the typical feelings and reactions of the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

They have mixed up Sex and Gender, unless they are insisting the way we see ourselves is assigned at birth? Only Sex can be assigned at birth!!! 

 

Hugs,

 

Allie

[MaeBe]

3 hours ago, Vidanjali said:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165178123004912

In this study they chose interesting questions to determine "euphoria":

 

The questions asked participants to indicate the response that best described their experience in the past two weeks: “I am happy that I have the gender identity that I do” and “I have accepted my gender identity”.

 

These seem to hint at quality of life over euphoria as I've seen it described. I know I've felt euphoria and NOT "strongly agree" with either question.

 

I have not had the time to read beyond the opening paragraph on the second, there is a lot of text there! 🤓 I'll come back around tonight!

 

Thank you for sharing!

💜Mae

[Betty K]

51 minutes ago, AllieJ said:

They have mixed up Sex and Gender, unless they are insisting the way we see ourselves is assigned at birth? Only Sex can be assigned at birth!!! 

But gender is more than the way we see ourselves. There are decades of feminist analysis on this; there is an entire discipline of gender studies. Gender, at least partly, is something that is done to us — bestowed on us from outside. I would say it is de facto “assigned” to us at birth along with our sex, or definitely when our parents dress us in blue or pink and start calling us he or her. We can disagree on the details, but we can’t change the commonly understood definition of the word.

 

I think it is you who have mixed up gender and gender identity. That’s why we have the term “gender identity”. They are two different things.

[Betty K]

@Vidanjali thank you so much for emphasising euphoria here; I think that is just what this conversation needed. 

[AllieJ]

2 hours ago, Betty K said:

But gender is more than the way we see ourselves. There are decades of feminist analysis on this; there is an entire discipline of gender studies. Gender, at least partly, is something that is done to us — bestowed on us from outside. I would say it is de facto “assigned” to us at birth along with our sex, or definitely when our parents dress us in blue or pink and start calling us he or her. We can disagree on the details, but we can’t change the commonly understood definition of the word.

 

I think it is you who have mixed up gender and gender identity. That’s why we have the term “gender identity”. They are two different things.

 

 

[Betty K]

4 hours ago, AllieJ said:

 

 

Allie, you have just reinforced my point. It’s right there in “stereotypical behaviours that might be considered male, female, or some variation”. Isn’t this just another way of saying what I said above about gender having a social aspect? (The Oxford Dictionary definition.) In any case, it certainly refers to more than just “the way we see ourselves”. 

I note that the definition of “transgender” included here also reinforces my earlier point: it’s about gender identity. Gender presentation is not mentioned.

 

What’s the source?

 

[Vidanjali]

14 hours ago, Betty K said:

@Vidanjali thank you so much for emphasising euphoria here; I think that is just what this conversation needed.