Finding a Way Forward for Conservative and Charismatic Evangelicals

[Abigail Genevieve]

Many transgender people are in these circles.  Leelah Alcorn was one.  The only way forward she found was suicide. I am in these circles, accepting conservative, charismatic evangelicalism while also accepting my own experiences, which I seem to be describing in nauseating detail elsewhere here.  Part of my journey is dealing with those unfamiliar with science who tread into ground that is actually science and not theology, those who interpret Scripture according to preconception, and those who have no idea at all what it means to deal with transgender issues, assuming it is purely a matter of sin and repentance.  When you have a hammer, everything is a nail.  My friends are among these folk, and I intend to remain friends with them.  I need to sharpen my skills here. 

 

I would like to see the Kobiyashi Maru demolished, where either you accept your transgender identity and reject evangelicalism, or you accept evangelicalism and try with all your might to escape being transgender.  I think you can be both transgender and conservative evangelical, despite strong denial both by many, some forced out of churches because they were transgender, others insisting transgender is demonic, sin, or whatever. 

 

"God does not make mistakes."

 

Therefore, it is said, you cannot be transgender.  But due to the Fall, there are birth defects, diseases and all manner of things wrong with the world and our bodies.  We can expect to find things not in perfect order.

 

"God does not make mistakes."  But He made you.  Read Psalm 139.  It does not say He screwed up making you.  He made you transgender.

 

"Male and female he made them" - in Genesis.  That word "and" is a waw in Hebrew.  It can mean 'and' or 'or'.  It is not He made them male, and others He made female. People make it out to be that that is what is says.  That is NOT what it says.  It could be he made some that were male-and-female.  Intersex people.  The phrase has a wide range.

 

My point in this post is not to exhaustively discuss this subject, because that would take a while.  I detest some of what passes for theology concerning this by those who came into it with a preconceived notion of what it means. 

[Mmindy]

1 hour ago, Abby Gen said:

"God does not make mistakes."

Abby,

 

I agree with you on so many points. It's hard for my Christian conservative family and friends to hear that I am transgender. I point out the same things you pointed out here in this post and the others who have posted similar things in the Christian threads. It's as it they (my family) refuse to look at historical and scientific facts that transgender folks have existed from the beginning of time.

 

I am transgender and Christian.

 

Mindy🌈🐛🏳️‍⚧️🦋

[Abigail Genevieve]

13 minutes ago, Mmindy said:

Abby,

 

I agree with you on so many points. It's hard for my Christian conservative family and friends to hear that I am transgender. I point out the same things you pointed out here in this post and the others who have posted similar things in the Christian threads. It's as it they (my family) refuse to look at historical and scientific facts that transgender folks have existed from the beginning of time.

 

I am transgender and Christian.

 

Mindy🌈🐛🏳️‍⚧️🦋

I've gotten really angry at times when I have read someone's presentation on transgender and how to counsel transgender people "out of their sin" who clearly has never actually encountered a transgender person in their life.  I know why - I personally am very, very careful whom I reveal myself to.  The individual considered expert on this at my church maintains that all transgender "feelings" are due to early childhood trauma.  No, I have not approached them on this. Nor will I.

 

 OTOH Mark Yarhouse is superb. Preston Sprinkle has enormous common sense on this issue.  There are a few others standing against the common consensus among conservative evangelicals.  Conservative evangelicals look at acknowledging transgender people as having legitimate problems as sliding into liberalism, sin and the hand of the devil. Hard to argue with the emotional commitment.

[EasyE]

1 hour ago, Abby Gen said:

The individual considered expert on this at my church maintains that all transgender "feelings" are due to early childhood trauma.

This is my wife all the way ... she is convinced that I like to wear women's clothing because of some things that happened to me when I was in elementary school. I try to tell her that I associate my enchantment with women's clothing due to all POSITIVE experiences when I was little...

 

1 hour ago, Mmindy said:

I am transgender and Christian.

I am transgender, Christian and Catholic. Oh boy ;-)

 

3 hours ago, Abby Gen said:

"Male and female he made them" - in Genesis. 

There is a lot of beautiful theology here. God needs male AND female to express his image to the cosmos. We all have value in his eyes, and each of us is a unique icon of God's glory (though we are all marred by the Fall and our sin).

 

I wonder, though, how folks who read this section of Scripture automatically make the jump to discrediting transgender experience. "He made them male and female, and therefore you, a biological male, aren't allowed to be enchanted by the feminine, wear pink underwear or even think about buying a skirt from the women's section." Huh?

 

I feel like my enchantment with the feminine is giving God credit for creating something so amazing and beautiful that it takes my breath away!! I don't know if that makes sense but I desperately am trying to honor God and treat women and all things feminine with the utmost respect and dignity (something I did not do in my younger days, which I am ashamed of)...

[Abigail Genevieve]

13 minutes ago, EasyE said:

This is my wife all the way ... she is convinced that I like to wear women's clothing because of some things that happened to me when I was in elementary school. I try to tell her that I associate my enchantment with women's clothing due to all POSITIVE experiences when I was little...

I have read all the "reasons" why transgender people have this "problem" - whether sin or abuse.  I had stuff happen to me early, in elementary school, junior high, high school and college, when it starting turning into extreme ostracism and hostility instead of other stuff.  And other stuff.  I check all the boxes for trauma and have worked through it.  I've got a weird anatomy.  Still, here I am. 

 

I am wondering if she has a better solution.  Maybe

She: you need counseling.

You: I got professional counseling.

She: and what did they say?

You: I am transgender. This is fine.

She: You need a different counselor, one who agrees with me.

You: professional counselors do not agree with you.

Glare.

[Abigail Genevieve]

33 minutes ago, EasyE said:

This is my wife all the way ... she is convinced that I like to wear women's clothing because of some things that happened to me when I was in elementary school. I try to tell her that I associate my enchantment with women's clothing due to all POSITIVE experiences when I was little...

I realized I was overly dismissive on one point, and that is that you should see if there is any truth in this by fully exploring it, maybe with help.  You can tell her you checked later, or it is resolved, and at that point either it is resolved and it goes away (not likely IMHO) or it is still there, and you ask her for #2, which you then work through, and so forth.  I am all in favor of getting those comorbid issues worked through.  Anyone who grows up in the wrong gender will have them.  I have worked through a large number of them, as I think I have probably said too many times, and it helps.  If you tell her that is not the issue she will conclude you are in denial or something and the standstill continues with her.

[VickySGV]

One part of me says to stay out of this, since I am an Episcopalian which many many conservatives think is the epitome of Hell bound liberalism, but I did grow up through early college in a very conservative church environment. 

 

One of my earliest areas of questioning actually began in about 6th grade Sunday School where a teacher defined God's traits as being Omniscient (all knowing), Omnipotent (all powerful) and Omnipresent (always present) and then over the next few years I was told: what G could not know, what G could not do, and where G could never be, ever , in a person's life. 

 

In the primary definition G is powerful enough to create a Trans Person*, G also knows that we are G's children and siblings of Jesus, and finally that G very much through power and knowledge of us can always be present in our lives.  The tidy and efficient "fall from grace" is actually not a curse, but a calling to us to get off our duffs and partner with G in cleaning up the problems with human health, hunger and other parts of well being which can include learning from science in all the medical fields. In my Bible, between the OT and NT is a group of books called The Apocrypha, and one of those books actually speaks of wisdom that G keeps trying to lead us to by calling Physicians and Pharmacists to aid us and be partners with G for our care and improved lives.  

 

*I love the hymn All Things Bright And Beautiful and the stanza that goes "All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small, all things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all!"

[Abigail Genevieve]

9 hours ago, VickySGV said:

One part of me says to stay out of this, since I am an Episcopalian which many many conservatives think is the epitome of Hell bound liberalism, but I did grow up through early college in a very conservative church environment. 

 

 

 

*I love the hymn All Things Bright And Beautiful and the stanza that goes "All things bright and beautiful, all creatures great and small, all things wise and wonderful, the Lord God made them all!"

I will say this: I suggest that the part of your post I deleted could do better on another thread and contains a lot of material that would tempt me to hijack this thread in favor of that.  Too much coffee in my system or something. :)

 

One of the saddest things in the church is the division between liberals and conservatives, one favoring social action, the other personal salvation.  Both are needed, and reconciliation is, as well.  So I will state that I do not think the Episcopal church is the epitome of Hell bound liberalism.  That does not mean I agree with them, but neither will I "other" Episcopalians or other liberals.

 

I love that hymn as well.

[awkward-yet-sweet]

I absolutely disagree with the idea that God makes people to be transgender.  Genesis 1:27 says that God made people - male and female He created them.  Plural.  As in...people generally.  Also notice that God creates animals according to their kinds, and that Creation was orderly.  I don't find the "both/or/and" interpretation to be consistent with God's personality as described in Scripture.  God doesn't seem to operate with ambiguity.  It feels like using "lawyer language" to find something that isn't there. 

 

I do not believe that God made me as I am...intersex/trans, unable to reproduce naturally, and with wacky plumbing inside me that by some miracle manages to still work.  I believe that while God gives the soul, our biological life has been an ongoing natural process after Creation, something which He chooses not to control.  Yes, God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and all that.  But He voluntarily limits Himself in our world in this time.  He doesn't make everything or fix everything... cancer and war and such are proof of that.  If you believe in God creating people intentionally to be transgender, then you might also believe God intentionally creating some kids as disabled, or some to be stillborn. 

 

I believe the path forward for Christians is to recognize and accept the effects of Original Sin upon all creation. There's a difference between God avoiding involvement/manipulation and actively creating a situation.  God doesn't make mistakes...but at this point, there are a lot of things that God simply doesn't make at all.  I don't believe He is as detached from Creation as the Deist "watchmaker analogy," but I don't believe He is controlling every little detail either.  There's a balance, sort of.  Disagree if you want - people have debated the issue of control, free will, and creation for centuries....it will continue to be discussed until the end of time.

 

I'm not sure if I was supposed to be a boy or a girl.  I guess when I get to the afterlife, I'll find out.  Because all the crap that happens here due to original sin and a broken system will be fixed.  The world will be set right, and I believe we'll all be either male or female as God originally wanted.  Some of us might be surprised at what that looks like.  As for me, I'll be happy with either.  I just want to fit in my body. 

 

 

[Abigail Genevieve]

1 hour ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I absolutely disagree with the idea that God makes people to be transgender.  Genesis 1:27 says that God made people - male and female He created them.  Plural.  As in...people generally.  Also notice that God creates animals according to their kinds, and that Creation was orderly.  I don't find the "both/or/and" interpretation to be consistent with God's personality as described in Scripture.  God doesn't seem to operate with ambiguity.  It feels like using "lawyer language" to find something that isn't there. 

 

I do not believe that God made me as I am...intersex/trans, unable to reproduce naturally, and with wacky plumbing inside me that by some miracle manages to still work.  I believe that while God gives the soul, our biological life has been an ongoing natural process after Creation, something which He chooses not to control.  Yes, God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and all that.  But He voluntarily limits Himself in our world in this time.  He doesn't make everything or fix everything... cancer and war and such are proof of that.  If you believe in God creating people intentionally to be transgender, then you might also believe God intentionally creating some kids as disabled, or some to be stillborn. 

 

I believe the path forward for Christians is to recognize and accept the effects of Original Sin upon all creation. There's a difference between God avoiding involvement/manipulation and actively creating a situation.  God doesn't make mistakes...but at this point, there are a lot of things that God simply doesn't make at all.  I don't believe He is as detached from Creation as the Deist "watchmaker analogy," but I don't believe He is controlling every little detail either.  There's a balance, sort of.  Disagree if you want - people have debated the issue of control, free will, and creation for centuries....it will continue to be discussed until the end of time.

 

I'm not sure if I was supposed to be a boy or a girl.  I guess when I get to the afterlife, I'll find out.  Because all the crap that happens here due to original sin and a broken system will be fixed.  The world will be set right, and I believe we'll all be either male or female as God originally wanted.  Some of us might be surprised at what that looks like.  As for me, I'll be happy with either.  I just want to fit in my body. 

 

 

God is not the author of evil.  The world is fallen - one of the few things everyone agrees on is that not everything is right with this world.  There is agency that can act contrary to His will.  And there is the promise that He will work all things for good for those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose.  Rom 8:28. 

 

Beyond that, I don't know.  Sometimes I say He made me transgender and sometimes I say it is the result of the fall. In either case the truth is governed by my previous paragraph.

[EasyE]

8 hours ago, awkward-yet-sweet said:

I absolutely disagree with the idea that God makes people to be transgender.  Genesis 1:27 says that God made people - male and female He created them.  Plural.  As in...people generally.  Also notice that God creates animals according to their kinds, and that Creation was orderly.  I don't find the "both/or/and" interpretation to be consistent with God's personality as described in Scripture.  God doesn't seem to operate with ambiguity.  It feels like using "lawyer language" to find something that isn't there. 

 

I do not believe that God made me as I am...intersex/trans, unable to reproduce naturally, and with wacky plumbing inside me that by some miracle manages to still work.  I believe that while God gives the soul, our biological life has been an ongoing natural process after Creation, something which He chooses not to control.  Yes, God is omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and all that.  But He voluntarily limits Himself in our world in this time.  He doesn't make everything or fix everything... cancer and war and such are proof of that.  If you believe in God creating people intentionally to be transgender, then you might also believe God intentionally creating some kids as disabled, or some to be stillborn. 

 

I believe the path forward for Christians is to recognize and accept the effects of Original Sin upon all creation. There's a difference between God avoiding involvement/manipulation and actively creating a situation.  God doesn't make mistakes...but at this point, there are a lot of things that God simply doesn't make at all.  I don't believe He is as detached from Creation as the Deist "watchmaker analogy," but I don't believe He is controlling every little detail either.  There's a balance, sort of.  Disagree if you want - people have debated the issue of control, free will, and creation for centuries....it will continue to be discussed until the end of time.

 

I'm not sure if I was supposed to be a boy or a girl.  I guess when I get to the afterlife, I'll find out.  Because all the crap that happens here due to original sin and a broken system will be fixed.  The world will be set right, and I believe we'll all be either male or female as God originally wanted.  Some of us might be surprised at what that looks like.  As for me, I'll be happy with either.  I just want to fit in my body. 

 

 

This is the crux of my anguish these many, many months (years!) and where I go back-and-forth with my own journey ... I was born a biological male. No denying that in my case. But I have a lot of internal feminine leanings and external ones, too. I prefer to wear women's clothes 100 percent of the time (if I could). I wish I had the female plumbing. I long for that badly sometimes. I don't know why or where that came from but no denying that either. I have started HRT because I like the idea of having a more feminine physical body and some of the "perks" that go with that. I just asked my doc to up my dose to the next level today!

 

So the big question I ask myself is: am I knowingly disobeying God, who likes order and made humans male and female, by taking these steps? This is my wife's take on things. "You are sinning. You know God made you a male biologically. Yet you are willfully pursuing transition to being something God didn't intend you to be regardless of what you feel inside, what your preferences are, etc."  I keep trying to tell her it's much more complex than that but sometimes I don't even know what I think...

 

This ties up in knots and makes me angry and makes me feel stuck!!! I don't want to disobey my Creator and Savior and yet I have this strong, strong leaning toward the feminine in many ways (that keeps getting stronger and refuses to go away no matter how much I have tried to stuff it away!!) ... It feels like misery no matter which path I take - if I "give in" to the feminine, which I have been doing a lot the past 12 months or so, am I endangering my soul? Am I creating scandal? Yet the thought of putting the feminine aside feels, at times, like death too (or is it just me being self-centered and unwilling to bend the knee to my Creator who would ask me to give this up as a testament to my love for him...

 

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know!! But sometimes I really really F***ing hate this quandary... 

[awkward-yet-sweet]

23 minutes ago, EasyE said:

So the big question I ask myself is: am I knowingly disobeying God, who likes order and made humans male and female, by taking these steps? This is my wife's take on things. "You are sinning. You know God made you a male biologically. Yet you are willfully pursuing transition to being something God didn't intend you to be regardless of what you feel inside, what your preferences are, etc." 

 

I think many Christians end up with a false dichotomy.  If we didn't choose to be how we are, then something in our environment did it. Is going along with it a sin?  Maybe.  But if so, its one of those times where we mess something up no matter what we do.  Part of the imperfect nature of this fallen world is that there are times where we'll sin no matter what we do.  In a no-win scenario like that, we do the wisest thing possible with our free will. 

[Abigail Genevieve]

I think the grace and lace letters are terrific.  I put a link in one thread; when I have time I will post it here.

 

I have the same struggle at times.  I have dug into the theology on anti-trans, for want of a better word, and every time I have come away more convinced that they don't know what they are talking about.  Excellent theologians do not necessarily make great plumbers, or something like that. Yet many listen to them on this, because they are good at theology. So they must be good plumbers.

[Abigail Genevieve]

https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/col/cj82k733h

 

I am now dissatisfied with the thread title because it seems to exclude Catholics and maybe others .  I am not sure what to change it to, so I will fuss over THAT now. 

[EasyE]

2 hours ago, Abigail Genevieve said:

https://www.digitaltransgenderarchive.net/col/cj82k733h

 

I am now dissatisfied with the thread title because it seems to exclude Catholics and maybe others .  I am not sure what to change it to, so I will fuss over THAT now. 

You're still cool to this Catholic... no worries... ;-)

[Ivy]

On 4/8/2024 at 1:17 AM, VickySGV said:

One part of me says to stay out of this…

Yeah…  As an exvangelical in my case.

Guess I'll listen to that part of me this time.

[Abigail Genevieve]

One FB post from an old friend who lives 250 miles away and has no idea of any of this, and a news article this morning about someone with multiple mental problems  assert that transgender people are controlled by demons.

 

Me not happy.  Can't reason with some people.

[Ivy]

13 minutes ago, Abigail Genevieve said:

transgender people are controlled by demons.