Transsexualism No Longer Viewed As Mental Illness In France

[Guest Chris_421]

I'm posting this over from another forum I'm a part of, what do you all think about it? Do we have members here from France who maybe know more about it?

France has removed transsexualism from an official list of mental illnesses, according to an order issued by the French Ministry of Health reported Friday by French news media. The order issued Wednesday removed “gender identity disorders” from an article of the social security code related to “long-term psychiatric diseases.” According to media reports, France is the first country in the world to do so.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/world/eu...efs-France.html

While on paper this looks awesome...I'm concerned as to how/if this will impact treatment and support.

[Guest sarah f]

I am with you Chris, it sounds almost too good to be true. What is the underlying reason for this. Maybe they are just opening their eyes and realize it is not an illness or disorder. At least we can hope.

Love,

Sarah F

[Guest Donna Jean]

I'm posting this over from another forum I'm a part of, what do you all think about it? Do we have members here from France who maybe know more about it?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/13/world/eu...efs-France.html

While on paper this looks awesome...I'm concerned as to how/if this will impact treatment and support.

Chris....

I hate to be so distrusting, but, it always seems that we're taken off one list just to be put on another with fewer rights/care...

I need some solid proof that this is a plus! I need to see how it really affects us...

*fingers crossed*

Donna Jean

[Guest julia_d]

Actually people seem to be grasping the wrong end of the stick over this.

Lets have a look and a think for a minute..

The first thing you have to do in Europe to began transition is to see a shrink.. who pronounces you sane and confirms you DO NOT have a mental illness..

Then you see a gender specialist (read charlatan gatekeeper who follows rules set in stone) who diagnoses a condition which is on the books as a mental illness..

Then employment discrimination and treatment discrimination and abuse follows. You find out pretty fast what having "treatment" for a "mental illness" does to your employment opportunities.. The "mentally ill" do not get the same legal protection from discrimination as the physically ill or disabled, and the "mental health" category is used by health service providers as an excuse to strip ALL your rights of choice and informed consent as a patient away.

Lets think for a minute further.. You want breast augmentation, or one leg lengthening or a nose job.. all are major surgical procedures but you don't need 2 years + with a shrink to have a nose job, and believe me.. people regret those too.

If a doctor was to say "you can have your nose fixed but you have to have 2+ years "psychotherapy" before you can have it" they would be laughed right out of the hospital. Same applies.

Now we come to the SOC .. ok fine.. they exist, but they are antiques written by people many many years ago.. Do we still treat people with mental illnesses the way they were treated in 1960? .. not on your life we don't.. because they were found to be no more than abuse.. we don't use electric shocks and cut peoples brains open any more.. things have moved on in every field of mental health EXCEPT the treatment of trans people. The "specialists" sit behind their wall of rules and conditions like Moses with his stone tablets.. I put it forward that IF these rules are set in stone then where is the need for a "specialist" at all?.. surely any doctor can read the writing on the wall and follow the guidelines (rules carved in stone) and devise with the "patient" a suitable course of action.

At last there is light at the end of the tunnel. I was diagnosed and set off on my pathway in an "enlightened" age in the UK 10 years ago.. where GID was for a while seen as a purely phisical condition (somebody had some sense and realised a "mental illness" can't possibly be "cured" by surgery to the genitals so it MUST be a physical condition.. Psychotherapy "cures" don't work.. further validation of the view it isn't mental.. Since then things have reverted back to the shrinks having total control of what is no more no less a rectification of a physical birth defect. You don't need to have a shrinks approval to have your boobs made bigger or smaller.. and if they cause you physical or mental anguish you can get them sorted out by the state.. (national insurance.. we PAY for our healthcare by compulsory taxation) and I don't understand how it has been allowed for us to be abused by the mental "health" services for so long after it has been obvious that it IS NOT a mental health issue.

Rant off.. the bottom line is this.. The French step is removing decades of abuse by psychiatrists of people who are suffering already. It does not affect their treatment rights under the French social security and health provision requirements.

[Guest AmyB]

The first thing you have to do in Europe to began transition is to see a shrink.. who pronounces you sane and confirms you DO NOT have a mental illness..

Then you see a gender specialist (read charlatan gatekeeper who follows rules set in stone) who diagnoses a condition which is on the books as a mental illness..

Then employment discrimination and treatment discrimination and abuse follows. You find out pretty fast what having "treatment" for a "mental illness" does to your employment opportunities..

It simply isn't true that you must see a psychiatrist to transition in Europe. Nor do all self proclaimed gender specialists act as gate keepers or have no compassion or flexibility. Employment discrimination isn't a given (in fact transgender discrimination is included in many major employers equal ops policies now as being specifically prohibited). I can only speak for the UK but seeing a shrink isn't required to transition in the UK. You can change your gender, name and title on every document (Including passport and driving licence) apart from your birth certificate without the say so of anyone but yourself. Hormones are not controlled substances in the UK. Non-NHS medical care is legal and more easily available than NHS care. Phlebotomy/blood testing is easily available. Semen cyropreservation is easily available. Hair removal is easily available. Speech therapy is available. FFS is available. Breast augmentation is available. All these things are available without gatekeepers or your GP or the NHS. Transition is available.

Yes, the NHS requires seeing a shrink, but the NHS isn't the only option and lets not mislead people that it is. Doing so will increase people's suffering and may lead venerable people to suicide. If the NHS's bureaucracy had been my only choice I would not be transitioning - I wouldn't have been able to cope with it. I know there are other people similar to me, so lets not mislead them that the NHS is the only choice. If I'd got really bad about my gender and the NHS was the only way through, I'd have more than likely not taken the NHS option... and you can guess the rest. Don't like what they offer? Go somewhere else; that's market economics at it's best.

For what it's worth, we could equally complain about oncology, or end of life care in the NHS or any other specialism, but the NHS isn't the only way to get medical care, we have options. In fact it's the same with education (a matter close to my heart). School is not compulsory in the UK. Neither is the NHS.

If I decide not to go for GCS, the chances are that I'll have never seen a shrink in the whole of my transition. If I do see a psychiatrist because my preferred GCS surgeon requires it, then it'll be one that I've personally selected and pre-screened as trans friendly. It will be a business relationship like any other: I'm paying for his/her services, she will supply them as per our contract.

I'm still relatively early in transition (~6mo+, HRT etc) but I've experienced no discrimination at all so far. NONE. Things really are not that bad for transpeople in Britain.

The message is simple: avoid the NHS for your transition treatment & educate others that they can too.

[Guest Chris_421]

But then that leaves those who cannot afford transition without the governments help (for whatever reason that may be) with the worse option.

Over here in Canada I had to get a diagnosis for GID in order to start hormones, and I'm in the process of trying to get a hysterectomy covered through my provincial health care, I had to see my psych again for another recommendation and see two gynecologists. I in no way have the thousands of dollars to pay for it out of pocket, if I had I would have had chest surgery by now.

If you have the money to transition, its extremely easy to get what you need when you need it. If you don't, then its a waiting game either way to save or hope the government will help you out.

It's obviously just speculation right now and will just need more information on what changes.

[Guest nymphblossom]

Hopefully this will make treatment more available and affordable, but it seems like politcal posturing that may be a little premature. I don't understand how a condition that can only be diagnosed by psychoanalysis can be considered anything other than a metal illness. Until there is an identifiable physiological cause for transsexualism, I can't see any logical way around that.

Blossom

[Guest julia_d]

It simply isn't true that you must see a psychiatrist to transition in Europe. Nor do all self proclaimed gender specialists act as gate keepers or have no compassion or flexibility. Employment discrimination isn't a given (in fact transgender discrimination is included in many major employers equal ops policies now as being specifically prohibited). I can only speak for the UK but seeing a shrink isn't required to transition in the UK. You can change your gender, name and title on every document (Including passport and driving licence) apart from your birth certificate without the say so of anyone but yourself. Hormones are not controlled substances in the UK. Non-NHS medical care is legal and more easily available than NHS care. Phlebotomy/blood testing is easily available. Semen cyropreservation is easily available. Hair removal is easily available. Speech therapy is available. FFS is available. Breast augmentation is available. All these things are available without gatekeepers or your GP or the NHS. Transition is available.

Yes, the NHS requires seeing a shrink, but the NHS isn't the only option and lets not mislead people that it is. Doing so will increase people's suffering and may lead venerable people to suicide. If the NHS's bureaucracy had been my only choice I would not be transitioning - I wouldn't have been able to cope with it. I know there are other people similar to me, so lets not mislead them that the NHS is the only choice. If I'd got really bad about my gender and the NHS was the only way through, I'd have more than likely not taken the NHS option... and you can guess the rest. Don't like what they offer? Go somewhere else; that's market economics at it's best.

For what it's worth, we could equally complain about oncology, or end of life care in the NHS or any other specialism, but the NHS isn't the only way to get medical care, we have options. In fact it's the same with education (a matter close to my heart). School is not compulsory in the UK. Neither is the NHS.

If I decide not to go for GCS, the chances are that I'll have never seen a shrink in the whole of my transition. If I do see a psychiatrist because my preferred GCS surgeon requires it, then it'll be one that I've personally selected and pre-screened as trans friendly. It will be a business relationship like any other: I'm paying for his/her services, she will supply them as per our contract.

I'm still relatively early in transition (~6mo+, HRT etc) but I've experienced no discrimination at all so far. NONE. Things really are not that bad for transpeople in Britain.

The message is simple: avoid the NHS for your transition treatment & educate others that they can too.

OK.. find yourself 10+ K a year.. simple.. MOST transpeople in the UK are not in employment having been "let go" at the first opportunity, and once unemployed are directly excluded from employment. You carry on being rich, and I will speak for the poverty stricken unemployed and discriminated against majority. I doubt very much you have ACTUALLY changed your name on any of the above documents you list and then tried to apply for work with our "security" checks and "immigration status" checks. Have you been forced to out yourself by a potential employers demand to see a birth certificate, driving licence or passport? How would you handle I wonder hitting the brick wall every time of your details coming back from a police check showing a previous opposite gender and then never hearing anything more.. 8000+ times in 10 years.. It's fine having eloquent and well meaning words on some government papers, but if employers won't touch you because they can.. It's a simple and very clear fact.. UNTIL you are employed you have NO PROTECTION under the employment non-discrimination rights.

Go on.. pack in your nice privileged job miss 6 months with a private shrink and join the rat race with the rest of us poverty stricken abused NHS sufferers. I bet when your employers gets wind that you will be off sometime for surgery that will be it.. cards on Monday morning.. "restructuring" or some other lame excuse. You really don't get it at all do you.. minimum wage employment is the best most of us 2+ year girls can hope for.. and you can't see a private on minimum wage.. keeping a roof over our heads and actually getting to the horrid minimum wage insecure "fired at any time" job takes 110% of our monthly income.. 3 days off in 9 months for medical appointments.. heres your cards (happened to T girl I know nearby in December)

I don't just speak for me.. I speak for 6000 transitioners in the UK when I say.. the system here is 2 tier.. the rich and privileged get it easy.. the rest of us get abused. The UK class structure rears it's ugly head.. remember class war? .. I was a member of that anarchist collective.

So "avoid the NHS" .. great.. for RICH people.. for the rest of us NO OPTION .. so go back to your ivory tower.. because the rich can and do access the private side of things using money to pay their way past the SOC and all the other traumas, for the rest of us.. the majority.. it ain't like that at all..

[Guest AmyB]

I'm not sure what you need to send £10k per year every year on to transition... ~£30/mo on meds and then physicians visits and blood tests (~£1k per year including travel expenses) are the only on going (i.e. not one off) costs I can see. People spend more than that on cigarettes, alcohol, junk food, tea, coffee, soft drinks, mobile phone calls and other discretionary spending.

Regarding employment, anecdotally, of the four (plus me) real life transgender people I know (two women, two men and one androgdyne) the two women and one of the guys are employed in highly prestigious jobs, the other guy is in education, the androgyne is unemployed. I've never been asked for a birth certificate, passport or driving licence by an employer, except by my current employer who wanted a copy of my driving licence to insure me on the company insurance. Some years ago, I had to be security checked (MoD), they didn't require my birth certificate either. The MoD and other organisations that require security clearance are trans-aware. I've never had a CRB check, but special provision is made for transpeople so that they do not disclose their previous names. http://www.gendertrust.org.uk/n2/p18.php?id=2

Employers are interested in two things: 1) "Will you make them money?" 2) "Will you make them more money than someone else?". My source for this claim? I previously ran an HR company that dealt with ~100 different employers. I found it to be true.

UNTIL you are employed you have NO PROTECTION under the employment non-discrimination rights.

I can't dispute this without reviewing the law in detail. However, regardless of the law see the things that employers are interested in. I am personally aware that many companies have a policy of non-discrimination in recruitment and actively work to ensure that they do not discriminate. Practically every company is now aware that diverse teams work better than homogeneous teams and hence are more profitable. It's accepted practice and taught in most management courses.

Go on.. pack in your nice privileged job miss 6 months with a private shrink

The whole point of my post was that I haven't seen a shrink. And what a weird suggestion that I should give up a good job when you're saying they're difficult to come by!

I bet when your employers gets wind that you will be off sometime for surgery that will be it.. cards on Monday morning.. "restructuring" or some other lame excuse.

My employer asked me just last week if there was any more support or help they could offer. They've also absorbed the cost of my counselling, are happy and supportive of me disappearing for a day or two every so often (without taking holiday) so I can travel for medical appointments, hair removal, speech therapy etc. Why? Because I ensure it doesn't impact my work and that I get everything done that needs to be done - and more! I don't even have to give a reason when I'm not going in on a particular day because they trust me and I benefit them. Other colleagues have had year long sabbaticals, not a problem.

I'm not rich. I'm paid less than the national average. Class and class war is dead. I worked hard (80+ hour weeks) and saved so that I had enough cash to do what I want.

And besides, I reckon the monetary cost (for me - DYODD) of transitioning without NHS involvement is lower than transitioning with NHS help - that's once you include my time and incidentals.

It is important that people aren't misled into thinking that the NHS is the only system available.

[Guest AshleyK]

I can't dispute this without reviewing the law in detail. However, regardless of the law see the things that employers are interested in. I am personally aware that many companies have a policy of non-discrimination in recruitment and actively work to ensure that they do not discriminate. Practically every company is now aware that diverse teams work better than homogeneous teams and hence are more profitable. It's accepted practice and taught in most management courses.

Some companies, particularly large corporations, will go out of their way to employ minorities because it looks good for diversity.