Pedestals, a commentary.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

I am going to probably be publishing this in other locations, but I felt the need to share it here as well even though I know it will make some unhappy I do feel it is something that needs to be said and I am doing so with out apology.

Pedestals
A Commentary on the Transgender Community.


I have only been active in the transgender community for the last 8 months, but the truth is I have spent many many years watching the community. I came out in 2009 my self at the age of 24, and I spent the years after that working on transitioning. I finally decided to get more vocal in the community because I had been through a lot and I felt there was a good deal I could share to help others. Of course there have been moments where I needed support as well I am not quite as sunshine and roses as I often portray.

The truth is I am not a colossal fan of the transgender community, there are many issues in this community that are really quie upsetting. This community is very tunnel vision in their thinking we are unwilling to think anywhere outside of the lines, we are unwilling to accept thought from others that doesn't fit within those lines. If someone feels differently then the pack then they are quickly squashed and labeled a bigot, or told they have internalized transphobia. You better damn well agree with this community or they will go out of their way to put a ball gag right in your mouth.. or better yet push you out of the community entirely.

The fact is that this community is very closed minded at times, and incredibly shallow. I see this time and time again whenever someone in the headlines is outed to be trans, or is openly trans, this community will flock to that individual with nothing but good things to say. The only thing that this community is often willing to see is the word "transgender' and the content of someones character is entirely irrelevant as long as that person is "like us". If you don't agree with this you are shouted down, you are stomped on, and you are looked down upon.

I have seen this in regards to individuals like Kosilek, who keeps getting brought up in this community time and time again as an example of trans rights. This person is a vicious murderer who is seeking tax payer funded SRS in prison and you will have the trans community jumping full steam ahead to fight for this individuals rights. It doesn't matter the content of their character or even the suspect nature of their claims of being transgender, the community will support them based entirely on the claim of being trans.

This community will throw anything out that doesn't fit the specific world view. How often do we see people suggest to others that if your family doens't support you instantly then you should ditch them? Pretty damn often there is no respect for others feelings and no respect for opinions that do not fit the Trans narrative, if ones feelings doesnt fit that narrative then it needs to be discarded.

So it is any surprise that we as a community will place any individual that is in the headlines that claims they are trans on a pedestal? I see it time and time again, Kosilek, Coleen Francis, Kristin Beck, Private Manning (I am still going to refuse to use the "proper pronouns" on the basis of making a point that you cannot silence uncomfortable speech) we place these people on a pedestal and we will only focus on the traits we feel are positive while completely ignoring any and all questionable traits. We will attempt to stomp out speech that goes against this community group think, it's all about validating our world view.

Here are some simple facts often glossed over by the community about each of these individuals. Kosilek is a convicted murderer who slaughtered a woman in cold blood, Colleen Francis is a perverted individual who felt the need to flaunt their male anatomy in a girls locker room, Private Manning well plenty is being said on both sides of the argument all over the internet right now so I wont go into that here.

Kristin Beck.. now there is a real interesting figure. This individual was placed on a pedestal, and discussed over and over to the point of nauseation... But a great exemplar to the community right? Honorable Military Career, everything you could want for in a pillar for the community right? Well not so fast, she publicly spoke out against Private Manning.. she went against the community group think of "Stand by and defend manning at all costs because manning is LIKE US!!!!" and how did that turn out? The open hands and adulation turned into daggers quite quickly, the back lash from the community was quite swift and quite harsh and literally forced Beck within a day to backtrack on her statements a bit.

How could our hero betray us so? Well I don't know contrary to what this community believes we as transgender individuals are allowed to have opinions that the community at large does not like. We are allowed as transgender individuals allowed to have opinions that offend you. You do not have a right to try to quash and silence all opinions that you find uncomfortable or offensive.

I personally have kept my personal opinions about Private Manning quite ambiguous because I am making a stand for the dissenting opinion on this and on anything really. I personally feel that in a large way that Private Mannings actions are somewhat courageous as I do feel the government is out of hand in its control of the american population. I however have to question how many here really care what Private Manning did one way or another? As far as I have seen the only thing many care about is that Manning is a public figure, and has claimed to be trans. The gravity of what manning has done and what it means in the context of government abuses is completely lost on many of you.

I think it is time for this community to open its eyes, and start forming your own opinions that are not based on the "like me" mentality. I understand that there are those in the trans community who view being trans as the basis for their entire identity and that they would largely feel lost with out it. So latching onto trans individuals in the public eye is only natural, but I can tell you that many of the younger transgender individuals do not feel this way. I know many many people in this community who do not view being trans as any kind of identity, but merely a medical condition in their life in which they are dealing with and over coming. Yet I see the idea that being trans is a beautiful identity to cling to being pushed on young trans people all the time when largely that isn't even remotely how they see it or will ever see it.

Private Manning is not a transgender icon, and I don't think it's fair to thrust this label or pedestal on Manning either. I think it is not only in the best interest of this community but also of Private Manning that Manning's diagnoses of gender dysphoria be treated as a medical issue that needs to be given serious medical treatment, and not a political or personal beacon for those in this community.

The true hero's of the transgender community are the individuals I see every single day in my duties as a moderator within one of the transgender communities who struggle and overcome and struggle some more and continue to overcome. There are many many heroes in this community and they do not need to be public figures to be so either. Instead of looking in the news, or public figures as someone to place on a pedestal how about looking within?

Everyone has an opinion, and those opinions may not always mesh with what you may feel comfortable with, but it is time that as a community we grow up and accept that there is more than one way of acceptable thinking.

I am transgender, and I support dissenting opinions.

Sarah Bergman

[Guest EvaO]

Hey, Sarah –

Thanks for sharing! I agree that dissenting opinions and diversity of thought should be celebrated in any community. Unfortunately, that is not always the case. Lots of communities tend to be very pedantic in thought and values and that has often caused a great many divisions within these communities – sometimes permanently. This is not unique to the *Trans community, as someone who is also involved in immigration, feminism and racial equality issues, I can contest to that. But, there definitely are things we, as a community can agree on: Trans people should have access to medical and psychological care, regardless of who they are. Trans people should not be discriminated against because of their trans-status. Trans people should not be limited to anything simply because of their trans-status. Everything else is game for contention.

Regarding Manning, I don’t know her personally, and I can either think she is worse than Hitler or a saint, but that really has no bearing on her gender or identity. Her identity is not up-for-grabs just because she’s a horrible person or a terrific one; you don’t start misgendering cisgenders because they’re horrible people. They may be horrible people, but the proper pronouns are still used. I think doing this within our own community helps tell the world that we should not be judged based on our gender identity but on our actions and character. I agree that she shouldn't be put on a pedestal simply because she came out as trans.

As for Colleen, what I’ve read about her, she was just dressing in the locker room and the actual girls that were there later publicly stated they don’t have a problem with her doing so; it was the media that sort of blew it out of proportion. As someone who hasn’t had surgery yet, I don’t want to be banned from a locker room or feel unsafe simply because I don’t have a vagina. That doesn’t mean I’m waving around my “penis” for everyone to see, it just means I’m trying to get dressed in the locker room appropriate to my gender.

Eva

[VickySGV]

I refer to us as the "Transgender Statistical Populaltion" because our Umbrella gets shredded in a mild breeze, and our "communities" are the result of collisions between ourselves in a crisis, hence what I referred to in a major organizing attemp here in L.A. a year ago as Collision Communities. We do have a tendency to ride coat tails or in slipstreams of other groups, It is the follow the band wagon and jump on that characterizes much of what I see today, and I interpret this as Sarah's general view. We are press hungry and limelight intoxicated. None of the people Sarah has mentioned wiill enjoy the center of attention for long and thusly are the clay footed idols of lore.

What is needed though, is resilient and dedicated leadership. Our challenge, just as it was 50 years ago is to find leaders who deserve the limelight, center stage. I know of a group of such leaders, and we do have them, the prime movers in such organizations as the National Center for Transgender Equality, the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, the Transgender Law Center and other local groups who have used the political and legislative systems from inside to gain us our needed rights. There are even GLB centric groups that are today taking up our cause, such as Lambda Legal, and Out and Equal to name a couple. These are our beacons, but we rarely speak of these organizations and they remain largely unknown to the Cis Public, but why should they be known. Those are just the ones I can name quickly and there are more who are struggling, and some of them do in their formation "ride the coattails" for publicity purposes, but if their goal is to break that nasty habit, we will be enriched. I too am just getting myself ready to jump into the activist pool, and some people have told me that my moderatorship here is more that just a toe in. We shall see.

A number of months ago I saw a list TG people, recommended by their peers for being distinguished leaders in our population, these are the people we need to talk about all the more, and forget the flash-in-the-pan types. They will endure for us, and the public should see them and know them for the high standards we really do have.

All of us do need to seek and find the healthy viable leaders for us, and leave our fallen idols to be absorbed into the earth. All of us though are full fledged members of the Human Race, world without end.

[Guest Jennifer T]

Sarah, I enjoyed reading your words here. Fwiw, I've never been one to follow any community. I think what I think, say what I believe, and pretty much move through this life with no more support than that of my wife and my children.

So I applaud you speaking your heart.

Peace this say.

[Guest Robin Winter]

I think you're making as many assumptions as you imply are being made by others.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Robin Winter
Insulting phrase removed

[Guest KimberlyF]

[Guest KimberlyF]

As for Colleen, what Ive read about her, she was just dressing in the locker room and the actual girls that were there later publicly stated they dont have a problem with her doing so; it was the media that sort of blew it out of proportion. As someone who hasnt had surgery yet, I dont want to be banned from a locker room or feel unsafe simply because I dont have a vagina. That doesnt mean Im waving around my penis for everyone to see, it just means Im trying to get dressed in the locker room appropriate to my gender.

Eva

That isn't what really happened and the police report is online. CF was reported on two occasions by two different schools with HS girls that practice at the pool. CF was not in the process of getting dressed. CF who has stated publicly that CF enjoys exebitionism and making people feel uncomfortable (CF had a very big online presence) was siting around naked. When asked to cover up, CF said CF has the legal right to expose little CF to whomever CF chooses.

At first, the media and community were behind CF, until some of these facts came out and then the CF started to get swept under the rug. Less than 1 year later, and CF will prob become more and more a victim of society than of CF as time passes.

[Guest KathleenMarie27]

Great peice sarah, one that I agree with 110 percent. Its sad that a community that by its nature is diverse seems to need to march a straight line. Even on this site I have seen many times the things that you say. It only makes our struggles that much harder and gives everyone who hates us that much more to rail against.

[gennee]

Thank you for your post, Sarah. I welcome dissenting views because it opens up dialogue. It's a reminder that each person is entitled to their views and opinions, something that I respect. I believe that no one should have their character assasinated and attacked because of their views.

Each one of us is different. We have different experiences, are at diferent points in our lives, and have our own journey walk that may be quite different from the other person. If anything, we need to respect and encourage those who are struggling. We need to be open to other viewpoints. One of the reasons that my journey has gone well is that I was open to new experiences and contrasting points.

[Guest Robin Winter]

Differing views are fine. Attacking a large group of people for not sharing them, based on what you assume to be their reasoning, is not.

[Guest KimberlyF]

Differing views are fine. Attacking a large group of people for not sharing them, based on what you assume to be their reasoning, is not.

So then you think it's OK to disagree with a large group, lets say a religious or political group, but not attack them or assume their reasoning?

[Guest Robin Winter]

I try never to make assumptions, but I'm not perfect. If you feel the need to point out any particular instance, I'll stand by to apologize for it.

[Guest KimberlyF]

I try never to make assumptions, but I'm not perfect. If you feel the need to point out any particular instance, I'll stand by to apologize for it.

I just wanted to know if that was your position. If it is, I agree.

I prefer to deal with issues of individuals instead of groups.

[MaryEllen]

Spot on, Sarah. Thank you.

MaryEllen

And everyone, keep it civil please

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Hi Sarah

The cornerstone of Laura's Playground is acceptance of all people. Here we have people at all points in the spectrum of being transgendered.

I cannot comment on the icons idea of transgendered people in the news, but I can comment on those who I know. I have always been very impressed by those who have completely transitioned, who endured transitioning in public, and live their lives to the fullest. These very ordinary people who overcame very extraordinary circumstances hold the deepest respect from me.

At my age, all I know is that embracing people's differences makes us realize that we are not really different at all.

Sorry for my ramblings.

Love

Brenda

[Guest EvaO]

"That isn't what really happened and the police report is online. CF was reported on two occasions by two different schools with HS girls that practice at the pool. CF was not in the process of getting dressed. CF who has stated publicly that CF enjoys exebitionism and making people feel uncomfortable (CF had a very big online presence) was siting around naked. When asked to cover up, CF said CF has the legal right to expose little CF to whomever CF chooses."

Wow, I didn't know that, Kimberly; well, that definitely changes a lot of things. However, I still think some politicians and media folks used her trans-status as a way to show how pre-op trans women using women-only spaces is problematic, not realizing how ridiculous that is, since there are cisgender women who are also a threat to other women in these spaces.

There's something else I wanted to say here: I think, as a community, we're exceptionally diverse because, really, the only thing we have in common is that we all transcend the gender we were assigned at birth. Some of us come from already-marginalized communities, some of us come from more privileged backgrounds; I think we should all focus on changing what really matters here, and that is the vilification of trans people.

Furthermore, there ARE some pretty powerful activists in our community: Janet Mock, Marci Bowers, Julia Serano. Of course, people like Manning are gonna get more media attention because their stories are more sensational.

[Charlize]

I don't want to stir the waters here but i would like to simply mention that i have not felt that any of these people have been on anything more than a mass media pedestal. Nobody asked me and i don't think i would pick any of them as a hero that deserves this kind of adulation or even controversy due to the transgender issue, certainly not for what they did for our community. If i was to pick someone it might be someone like Laura whose goal is to help each of us find ourselves with the support of our fellows. The people who deserve a pedestal are so often invisible and choose to stay that way. We all do our part as we deal with our gender issues. We all represent the trans community by being ourselves. I hope we can all quietly due our part as best we can.

Hugs,

Charlie

[Drea]

The truth is I am not a colossal fan of the transgender community, there are many issues in this community that are really quie upsetting. This community is very tunnel vision in their thinking we are unwilling to think anywhere outside of the lines, we are unwilling to accept thought from others that doesn't fit within those lines. If someone feels differently then the pack then they are quickly squashed and labeled a bigot, or told they have internalized transphobia. You better damn well agree with this community or they will go out of their way to put a ball gag right in your mouth.. or better yet push you out of the community entirely.

For a community who is quick to call others closed minded it is pretty closed minded in its own way.

The fact is that this community is very closed minded at times, and incredibly shallow.

Oops I just said that

I see this time and time again whenever someone in the headlines is outed to be trans, or is openly trans, this community will flock to that individual with nothing but good things to say. The only thing that this community is often willing to see is the word "transgender' and the content of someones character is entirely irrelevant as long as that person is "like us". If you don't agree with this you are shouted down, you are stomped on, and you are looked down upon.

I have seen this in regards to individuals like Kosilek, who keeps getting brought up in this community time and time again as an example of trans rights. This person is a vicious murderer who is seeking tax payer funded SRS in prison and you will have the trans community jumping full steam ahead to fight for this individuals rights. It doesn't matter the content of their character or even the suspect nature of their claims of being transgender, the community will support them based entirely on the claim of being trans.

Oh and heaven forbid if you refer to such person with the wrong pronouns. The entire substance of the point being made will be buried under a bombardment of how incorrect you are and totally change the discussion about your insensitivity or failure to adhere to guidelines than the important material.

This community will throw anything out that doesn't fit the specific world view. How often do we see people suggest to others that if your family doens't support you instantly then you should ditch them? Pretty damn often there is no respect for others feelings and no respect for opinions that do not fit the Trans narrative, if ones feelings doesnt fit that narrative then it needs to be discarded.

The push has been for "awareness" as the solution. I've always seen it differently cause awareness tends to push one to living as trans rather than simply living in the new gender role.

While I disagreed with that, such awareness was promoting the idea of medical needs, trying to change stereotypes that trans are all gay or that they are like drag queens.

But now awareness seems to be a perv like obsession with restroom use, supporting murders having surgery, supporting criminals in their transition, having no respect for the feelings of non-trans, and gay identifying, drag-queen-esque filing lawsuits based upon discrimination because they are transgender.

The old, while obnoxious, but very week stereotypes which were easy to overcome are now being replaced by rather strong stereotypes which seem no less offensive to those who don't wish to identify as trans but simply live in their new gender role.

So it is any surprise that we as a community will place any individual that is in the headlines that claims they are trans on a pedestal? I see it time and time again, Kosilek, Coleen Francis, Kristin Beck, Private Manning (I am still going to refuse to use the "proper pronouns" on the basis of making a point that you cannot silence uncomfortable speech) we place these people on a pedestal and we will only focus on the traits we feel are positive while completely ignoring any and all questionable traits. We will attempt to stomp out speech that goes against this community group think, it's all about validating our world view.

Oh no, don't violate the gender police rules it will only take away distract from the merits of the discussion.

But awareness is important, so important that it doesn't matter what negative impact it has.

{more to follow}

[Drea]

{and the rest}

Here are some simple facts often glossed over by the community about each of these individuals. Kosilek is a convicted murderer who slaughtered a woman in cold blood, Colleen Francis is a perverted individual who felt the need to flaunt their male anatomy in a girls locker room, Private Manning well plenty is being said on both sides of the argument all over the internet right now so I wont go into that here.

Let me supply that the Manning idiot is a less than stellar example of a trans person, who, having been convicted and sentenced, and naturally has little freedom so exploring gender issues in all that idle time doesn't seem so far fetched. Should this person have not been convicted, been in other circumstances, would this person have acted out in any way other than cross-dressing? Who is to know. But trans folks will project their needs to the individual.

Kristin Beck.. now there is a real interesting figure. This individual was placed on a pedestal, and discussed over and over to the point of nauseation... But a great exemplar to the community right? Honorable Military Career, everything you could want for in a pillar for the community right? Well not so fast, she publicly spoke out against Private Manning.. she went against the community group think of "Stand by and defend manning at all costs because manning is LIKE US!!!!" and how did that turn out? The open hands and adulation turned into daggers quite quickly, the back lash from the community was quite swift and quite harsh and literally forced Beck within a day to backtrack on her statements a bit.

How could our hero betray us so? Well I don't know contrary to what this community believes we as transgender individuals are allowed to have opinions that the community at large does not like. We are allowed as transgender individuals allowed to have opinions that offend you. You do not have a right to try to quash and silence all opinions that you find uncomfortable or offensive.

Well, I wasn't impressed by Kristen. Just someone else dealing with issues but you bring up a point that this person is a far more positive example, but in not towing the party line gets tossed under the bus.

I think it is time for this community to open its eyes, and start forming your own opinions that are not based on the "like me" mentality. I understand that there are those in the trans community who view being trans as the basis for their entire identity and that they would largely feel lost with out it. So latching onto trans individuals in the public eye is only natural, but I can tell you that many of the younger transgender individuals do not feel this way. I know many many people in this community who do not view being trans as any kind of identity, but merely a medical condition in their life in which they are dealing with and over coming. Yet I see the idea that being trans is a beautiful identity to cling to being pushed on young trans people all the time when largely that isn't even remotely how they see it or will ever see it.

Many do seem to view it as a lifestyle choice. The dialog is transition or not and for all my trying to point out that what the "community" pushes for as far as protections rarely is based on a medical condition. Oh sure they highlight the medical needs of a portion of the community to push for laws broad to include folks for which there is no medical need.

Private Manning is not a transgender icon, and I don't think it's fair to thrust this label or pedestal on Manning either. I think it is not only in the best interest of this community but also of Private Manning that Manning's diagnoses of gender dysphoria be treated as a medical issue that needs to be given serious medical treatment, and not a political or personal beacon for those in this community.

A tough call for me. I certainly see the medical condition aspect but the majority talk of choosing when it comes to treatment options I tend to default to maintain the status quo.

The true hero's of the transgender community are the individuals I see every single day in my duties as a moderator within one of the transgender communities who struggle and overcome and struggle some more and continue to overcome. There are many many heroes in this community and they do not need to be public figures to be so either. Instead of looking in the news, or public figures as someone to place on a pedestal how about looking within?

It's called self esteem

I am transgender, and I support dissenting opinions.

Thank you Sarah.

God Bless

[Guest Robin Winter]

The simple fact is that most people who are trans will at some time have to live under the trans label for a time. Very few have the luxury of disappearing and reappearing a new person in their correct gender. For that reason, the trans group has to be protected. I've not at any point said that manning or any other trans person convicted of a crime deserves to have their treatments and surgeries paid for while incarcerated, but in the case of manning since it seems to be a focal point, she did not simply come out at the time of her conviction, it was known she was trans for several years. If any of you commit a crime now after having transitioned in whole or in part, would you think it a good idea for you to be placed in a facility for members of the sex you were born to and suddenly forced back into that gender role? Would that make sense at all? Would that be safe? Chelsea Manning may in fact have not started transition because it was unsafe or unwise for her to do so while serving in the military. Nobody can say it wasn't her intention.

And for the record, I for one do not place *anyone* on a pedestal, with one exception. My daughter. To assume that I do simply because I disagree with your point of view is insulting.

[Carolyn Marie]

There is a great deal of truth in what you say, Sarah. Some things I haven't experienced for myself, other things i have. I tend to go my own way in statements and beliefs, and I think I'm pretty straightforward. I certainly agree with the crowd idolizing certain public figures. Check out Jennifer Boylan's FB page some time for a good example. Thousands of followers, many dozens of "likes" for posting what she had for dinner.

Some wag once said that "there is no such thing as bad publicity." I don't believe that for a minute. Some of the publicity that concerns the community lately hasn't done a thing to advance our interests, and have probably set us back. There are legitimate needs not being met, and one of them is public education, which in my view, is the only way to combat the stereotypes and hysteria promulgated by many in the media. Even reporters who think they are on "our side" often get the facts wrong. They also go to the same 2-3 community spokespeople for every issue, on the false belief that somehow those folks were elected to those positions, or know everything about everything. I understand why its done, of course. It's convenient, the reporters are on a deadline, and those spokespeople are good in doling out sound-byte sized tidbits of information. But it does limit the number of viewpoints, and those who don't go along with the usual POV will not have their views reported, because then it gets too complex. The one thing the media hates is complexity.

My last comment, Sarah, is that i agree that the community can be myopic, close minded and too narrowly focused at times. Yes we have real issues, and yes some of those issues are serious and need to be addressed. But not everything trans is good, not every transperson is good, and knee jerk support of a piece of legislation that purports to be pro-TG is deserving of support. Too often I see people jumping on bandwagons, and if you ask them why, they'll say, "because it's pro-TG." That's all they need to know, and don't bother them with any facts.

The devil truly is in the details. We need to pay more attention to them, and a little less attention to the latest TG beauty pageant.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

The simple fact is that most people who are trans will at some time have to live under the trans label for a time. Very few have the luxury of disappearing and reappearing a new person in their correct gender. For that reason, the trans group has to be protected. I've not at any point said that manning or any other trans person convicted of a crime deserves to have their treatments and surgeries paid for while incarcerated, but in the case of manning since it seems to be a focal point, she did not simply come out at the time of her conviction, it was known she was trans for several years.

So what? The person has a history, the person hadn't made any official medical change so suddenly, hey this person is now ENTITLED? I can think of lots of folks with a history who still haven't taken outward action, who I never expect to "transition". The decision remains after the fact.

If any of you commit a crime now after having transitioned in whole or in part, would you think it a good idea for you to be placed in a facility for members of the sex you were born to and suddenly forced back into that gender role? Would that make sense at all? Would that be safe?

Not an apples to applies comparison...I agree with the status quo policies, not advancing treatment which under that, this person didn't start, that is where they are...someone transitioned...that is where they are...someone in the middle...that is where they are.

But that is really besides the point in this topic.

I can entirely sympathize with the POV of Sarah. That the way the community rally's in support of this person is just a symptom of the broader issue.

[Guest Robin Winter]

I don't see the community supporting her. I see a pretty divided opinion. Referring to her with female pronouns isn't support for her, it's support for an idea, it doesn't cost anything, and it isn't a special right that she's earned. Whether or not she chose to transition before now doesn't change who she is, who medical professionals agree that she is. As far as paying for medical costs, I've seen very mixed opinions on that, not a united front standing behind her. Implying that the whole of the trans community are a bunch of zombies rallying in force to see that her every whim be seen to is simply not based in fact. Flat out stating that the entire trans community is narrow minded when the majority, at least here, have had unique opinions and have explained why they feel the way that they do is itself close minded, childish, and insulting.

[Carolyn Marie]

I don't see the community supporting her. I see a pretty divided opinion.

I think the threads on this subject on this site supports that view. I have no idea how the debate is going elsewhere, but I assume that there is a debate.

Carolyn Marie

[Drea]

I don't see the community supporting her. I see a pretty divided opinion.

I think the threads on this subject on this site supports that view. I have no idea how the debate is going elsewhere, but I assume that there is a debate.

Carolyn Marie

Of course those who aren't the target of the community displeasure don't see the issue. Nothing new with that.