Legality

[Guest Ryles_D]

I don't like having a bunch of F markers- that's a lie, and M markers don't feel much better, but markers are everywhere. You practically need a driver's license just to function here (USA), but I don't want to carry one around because of that. I know it isn't that big, but it'd feel like there was a giant neon sign pointing to the letter "F" every single time I had to show it to someone. I pass decently enough, and I have a male name, so I might be able to do the trick of getting the DMV to change it via "Excuse me, I think you messed something up" and hoping they don't ask for any documents. That might help, but it's sketchy legally since I don't intend to transition- and I'd rather say "Excuse me, you messed something up, this should be something like N/A or T or something of that nature", which I doubt will happen.

Does anyone have suggestions on what to do? Short of conflicting documents (which seems like a bad idea in general) I can't think of a way to have it so your forms don't all say you're legally one or the other.

Or, if there are no ways already set up- how can you get them to change? Could you try to petition them to give the option of non-binary, particularly for non-binaries who transition? How could you go about doing that?

[Guest April63]

Big long legal process... mumbo jumbo....

April

[Guest Ryles_D]

Big long legal process... mumbo jumbo....

April

Could you be a bit more specific? "big long legal process" can include pretty much anything. I'm asking for something I could actually try to do.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Dear RDeis,

Unfortunately, we live in a time where gender is inextricably tied to legal identity. For legal matters, one must choose a gender. that is why, when pople transition they have to go through the legal channels to have name, social security, driver's license, etc. changed to reflect their newly realized gender.

Sad, but true. The law has not caught p to gender neutrality yet :-(

LOL

bernii

[Guest Ryles_D]

Unfortunately, we live in a time where gender is inextricably tied to legal identity. For legal matters, one must choose a gender. that is why, when pople transition they have to go through the legal channels to have name, social security, driver's license, etc. changed to reflect their newly realized gender.

Sad, but true. The law has not caught p to gender neutrality yet :-(

No, but I'm hoping there's a way to speed up the process. As I said, someone found a way to legally get the gender neutral title Mx in the UK. People are able to take steps, and I want to know where I can start trying to take some of my own.

I've seen a lot of people suggest 'T' for trans* for non-binaries. Or even to give the option of leaving it off of certain ID like driver's licenses (I believe Massachusetts made it so you had to request your gender be put on the license) so that you don't automatically have to choose one or the other.

[Guest Deeedoo]

We should all sign a petition to the government to allow genders other than Male and Female. In school things, I like to check both, but in legal things and tests, I am forced to check the F. It's very embarrassing. If I had to choose a sex for my body, I would choose male. I WANT more testosterone and hair and muscles! Most females are beautiful, but I would rather not be one. Even then, though, I still wouldn't be happy. I don't want to be seen as a person with breasts and a vagina or no breasts and a penis. I want to be seen as a person.

[Guest Ryles_D]

We should all sign a petition to the government to allow genders other than Male and Female.

I like that idea. I know at least one other site that has a lot of other members who'd happily sign it, too. Do you know how to start one or who to send it to?

I don't know the best way to go about htat. How did transsexuals first get the government to let them change their gender markers? That might be a good place to start. If nothing else, it might garner visibility about non-binary genders and that some people feel them strongly enough to want to be treated as such or even to get that body.

In school things, I like to check both, but in legal things and tests, I am forced to check the F. It's very embarrassing.

I really like that idea. I did the same in school- I always hated having to mark one or the other. I'd even fill in all the races when I felt particularly annoyed because it didn't seem right to ask. Heck, my friend's school purposefully pre-marked the wrong races on everyone's test so that they'd get better diversity status or something dumb. I wouldn't on important tests like the SATs for fear of it messing something up, but if it was just one of those dumb ones I didn't see the problem.

If I had to choose a sex for my body, I would choose male. I WANT more testosterone and hair and muscles! Most females are beautiful, but I would rather not be one. Even then, though, I still wouldn't be happy. I don't want to be seen as a person with breasts and a vagina or no breasts and a penis. I want to be seen as a person.

I went by that idea, but realized I was wrong. I like how I'm treated now, so I guess I'd rather be "female"- but I don't want the parts. It's more that I've been treated female all my life, being considered male would be a change of pace and might feel like it evens it out. :/

[Guest April63]

If you want to go to the state level, you can get a petition which would be signed by registered voters. If you get enough signatures, this could turn into a state proposition and thus be on the ballot. The exact process varies by state.

If you want to go to the national level, you need to get a group of lobbyists that will pressure Congress into writing and passing a bill that would create additional genders.

Either way, I think both routes are unlikely to happen. But the idea of "T" might work.

April

[Guest Ryles_D]

I think starting at state level is smartest, although I'm not sure. It's a smaller area, and you don't need to find a LGBT friendly lobby to convince, but I imagine it's also be harder to get enough signatures from people who have no idea Oh my goodness you're talking about. :/

I agree they're both unlikely to happen, even if I don't like it. But hopefully at minimum it'll introduce the issue to public awareness and maybe lay some groundwork for things that will work.

For anyone else interested, here's a site that you can try to find your state on. It gives info on signatures and such. http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Laws...tiative_process (sorry if links aren't allowed. I couldn't find it in the rules, but I saw it allowed advertisements and hope this is okay. If it isn't allowed- please let me know your state and I'll PM you the information listed.)

Not all states do, though, and it's pretty variable. I've seen as low as 35,000 signatures needed (Alaska) and as high as 700,000 (California and a few others), and a lot of rules on distribution, too.

Does anyone have any idea how best to go about it? Like wording and such. Basically someone with a legal background would be useful. Or what would be required before you could attempt? (eg. NC requires top surgery for transmen to change the marker on their driver's license, most seem to need complete SRS to change your birth certificate, I think Mass. doesn't even require hormones to change the driver's license, etc.) For a lot of non-binaries transition isn't an option because there's none available that'd suit tehm, and I doubt there's a set transition because what body you want is so individual and different people want different outcomes, which complicates things.

[Guest Conrí]

I think it would be more likely to get somewhere if the petition was to remove gender markers than to add more markers....maybe.

[Guest Ryles_D]

That's a good point. Try to make it so you can remove gender markers from, at the very least, driver's licenses. Maybe passports as well?

[Guest brookerenee]

Try to get your state petition going, then take it from there. Its unlikely, but hey, anythign can happen!

[Guest Ryles_D]

I heard from someone who lives there that Denmark made a law that pre and non-op transsexuals can change their marker to 'X' on passports. So it has happened, even if it's not the best option.

Try to get your state petition going, then take it from there. Its unlikely, but hey, anythign can happen!

It can!

[Guest Javey]

Hmm... Well, I like the idea of the "T" option. I think personally, if you really wanna get into it, thats the place to start. Public education is a big MUST. Not even just for this one particular issue, but for the entire subject of being transgendered. I think if more people knew about it, we'd be much more widely accepted. Not to mention being more widely accepted and having people know more about it in general, would help out all those questioning.

Me personally, after reading this and all the replies, really really like this idea. I'm even considering getting into it myself. It'd make a big difference in a lot of peoples lives.

I don't like having a bunch of F markers- that's a lie, and M markers don't feel much better, but markers are everywhere. You practically need a driver's license just to function here (USA), but I don't want to carry one around because of that. I know it isn't that big, but it'd feel like there was a giant neon sign pointing to the letter "F" every single time I had to show it to someone. I pass decently enough, and I have a male name, so I might be able to do the trick of getting the DMV to change it via "Excuse me, I think you messed something up" and hoping they don't ask for any documents. That might help, but it's sketchy legally since I don't intend to transition- and I'd rather say "Excuse me, you messed something up, this should be something like N/A or T or something of that nature", which I doubt will happen.

Does anyone have suggestions on what to do? Short of conflicting documents (which seems like a bad idea in general) I can't think of a way to have it so your forms don't all say you're legally one or the other.

Or, if there are no ways already set up- how can you get them to change? Could you try to petition them to give the option of non-binary, particularly for non-binaries who transition? How could you go about doing that?

[Guest Javey]

Hmm, interesting idea. But in the event of a kidnap or something else horrible like that, it makes it easier for them to find you if they can narrow down EVERYTHING.

That's a good point. Try to make it so you can remove gender markers from, at the very least, driver's licenses. Maybe passports as well?

[Guest Ryles_D]

Hmm... Well, I like the idea of the "T" option. I think personally, if you really wanna get into it, thats the place to start. Public education is a big MUST. Not even just for this one particular issue, but for the entire subject of being transgendered. I think if more people knew about it, we'd be much more widely accepted. Not to mention being more widely accepted and having people know more about it in general, would help out all those questioning.

Me personally, after reading this and all the replies, really really like this idea. I'm even considering getting into it myself. It'd make a big difference in a lot of peoples lives.

I am, too. I'm going to wait until I move to Massachusettes and get top surgery to see what I can do, really, but I'm still thinking about calling up the DMV and saying "hey, how can I get a marker other than M or F or just left off?". Whoknows, it might work. They left off my race, so maybe they'll take this off. (I don't know why they left race blank, it confused the heck out of me)

Education definitely is a must, though. Most of the people against this are ignorant. I've heard peopel who say we shouldnt' be allowed to change the marker on our birth certificate because you never need it. I've had a few times I needed it just this month- it's not something that never comes up, and being outed by that would be awful. And that's the nice comments some people make. I hope we reach a point where people are more accepting and knowledgable.

Hmm, interesting idea. But in the event of a kidnap or something else horrible like that, it makes it easier for them to find you if they can narrow down EVERYTHING.

If it's still recorded in the system (birth certificate, etc are really hard to change)- then it's not like they can't say "oh, yes, this person is [sex]" with a basic check. The people reporting the kidnapping will probably be able tot ell that- and saying the presentation will help narrow it down far more than anything. Not having a marker on something you carry around with you won't change that- the kidnappers might just take your stuff so you don't have it wth you anyways.