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Guest Elizabeth K


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I found this while researching truisms - whadda ya think?

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death." -Albert Einstein

I have posted many times in Spirituality, most people know. I feel I am a spiritual person, of course, and look to a working between me and the CREATOR - maybe best said as 'trying to follow the Will of the Creator.' As I see the Creator not as a deity, but just 'what is," I can best post here in non-deistic spirituality - duh... took me a while to figure that out.

However, I 'approach' the CREATOR through the aspects = God / The Goddess / the Spirit, so there is a kinship I feel toward the more organized religions.

Heaven vs. Hell

How does that work? OH MY - I see so much troubled discussion on all that! Many religions subscribe to a good and bad - essentially a placemnent of the immortal soul (you) on one side or the other after you return to your origins. Of course that is not universal in all religions and beliefs, but in the Western world it tends to be one of the main basis for faith.

So now? DANG

Another option? OH NO!

Secularism. You may want to look it up... no room to go into detail here - basically it is a matter of living your life based upon ethics, which I suppose I now need to explain... I mean why I get so 'antsy' thinking about all this!


Here goes: 'DEFINE ETHICS?"

I feel this is a really slippery slope! Maybe its this modern world we live in that has me upset. Just a simple example: remember when government was supposedly for the good of the people? You could trust the Federal government to enforce everyone to be on a level playing field. Government lands were set aside for conservation reasons. Government enforced the laws, which were supposedly the will of the people. We were under an umbrella of ethically reasoned-out law.

Does anyone believe in that now? I mean in my 2/3rds century, I have seen a huge shift in ethics... or have I?

Maybe I am just wiser- having been deceived and lied too so much... oh my ... so cynical.

But the point is again, 'DEFINE ETHICS?" My ethics or yours? Our ethics or the Federal Government, or State Government... or City Government... or...

Or what?

Are our ethics set by Judo/Christian morality? Is Taoist, Islam, Buddhist, et al - to be included? Well certainly we need to be ethical... BUT

Are we? That is the reason Secularism frightens me.

What do I do? I ask my CREATOR... when I want to know.

So what is heaven and what is hell? My opinion?

If I can be with the CREATOR, I have achieved 'heaven.' To not be there is 'hell."

But the CREATOR doesn't chose where we go - we do.

My opinions of course.


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I view the Judgment (or Judgement Day) as more of a debriefing and assignment. We are not rewarded or punished, but rather, we reflect on what we have learned and how we have acted in this life to determine where we will best be able to serve our Creator. I also believe that heaven can be defined as being in the presence of our Creator. Our other option will be to be cast out, but ultimately, that is our decision. Not only do we choose how we live now, we will also choose when that final decision is made.

Our life here on earth is our mortal probation for us to learn and grow in ways that we couldn't do previously. After this life, many things will still be the same--we will still be able to make our own choices, but these choices may be very different than the ones we make now in mortality.

Whose ethics? The Creator's. Those are the ones that matter. When you are at work you don't act the way you want to act--you act the way your boss wants you to act. The same should apply to our lives. We won't be able to progress at all if we don't adhere to the standards set by He who has the power to advance us.

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As usual - very good, April.

I await touching the face of the Creator.


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Lizzy, thanks for this. I abandoned the god delusion a few years ago, so I don't even personify the random chaos that coalesced into life here on earth. I will say that the ethics of the gods I know of not only do not bear emulation, they bear condemnation. Both the godless and the godful have the same capacity for ethical and moral behavior. God bless you Albert Einstein. LOL

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Secularism is a good idea. It makes church and state separated. Simple as that.

I would not like to live in a country like Saudi-Arabia, it's in my opinion a theocratic toilet.

Neither would I like to live in the US, because of christians being a majority there.

I have nothing against the christians personal beliefs, I have something against

them taking Jesus into the booth with them, when voting.

Not that I think that matters anyway. Politicans in the US are bought and paid for by large, multi-national companies.

Ethics are personal, and they differ from person to person.

When the ethics are twisted by money, then that's where we have a problem.

Politicians all have a price.

The protective federal government you're talking about has been gone for a long time.

It's been replaced by puppets, and the people are just consumers.

It's not a problem of ethics, it's a problem of corruption.

The people who do this, have either very twisted ethics, or none.

Whose ethics? The Creator's. Those are the ones that matter.

And on the case of a creator or deity, I am a separate being.

No deity can demand of me that I behave in a certain way.

I behave certain ways when I am with people, because I desire

the effects of how I was behaving to them.

I have no obligations to any creator, be it a supreme deity that created this

universe or my parents. I may come off as an ungrateful and spoiled child, but with

all the things I've been through and all the pain and suffering I see in the world;

I would rather have not been born. I am honest when writing that.

"I am my own free spirirt, hence I will not rest."

And "Who so ever lays a hand on me to govern me is an usurper and a tyrant.".

The argument that I chose this before I was born can of course be made, but it's invalid.

I do not remember signing any such contract, and I am not that same being. Hence this

being that is "me" was condemned by its previous self, which was another separate entity.

But, I have faith in my fellow man. People are my friends and people are my enemies and

if they can be your friends, then we can make this world a better place.

An incredibly naive thought, but it's what's keeping me together right now.

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Ethics are very simple. It is not set by government, though sometimes, it is enforced by government. We don't have to vote on it, or debate about it. It just is.

If it causes harm, it is unethical.

Period. That's all there is too it. No God or religion is needed to explain it, interpret it, or enforce it. Religion didn't invent it. You can live your life by it, without need of the threat of post-death punishment in hell or reward in heaven.

If I harm someone, I will face consequences, here, on earth, while I'm alive. The consequences may be through legal punishment, or from retaliation from those I harmed, but I will be punished.

Conversely, if I help people, I will likely gain benefit from it.

Why is this so complicated a concept for people?

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For every right a person has that is burdensom duty on his neighbor, there is an equally burdensome duty on the person toward the neighbor from whom he has been receieved his right. (not too many people get that one)

For every wrong, there is a remedy!!

Maxim's of U.S. Jurisprudence --

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"Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense. (Hurting yourself is not sinful —just stupid.)" -- Robert Heinlein.

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Sounds good LizMarie, though I presume there might be some debate as to what is meant by "unnecessarily", lol!

A friend boils it all down to "Do Good, Avoid Evil...". He was a priest in training who either strayed or regained his senses.


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