Can this happen? SRS without hormones? SRS without transition?

[Guest Donna Jean]

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Is anyone in this thread aware that Leah is a medical professional?

Is anyone else here?

Donna Jean

[Drea]

I figure, as a non-professional, advocating one work out what their needs are with professionals rather than trust in the online experts is a no-brainer.

[Guest KimberlyF]

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Is anyone in this thread aware that Leah is a medical professional?

Is anyone else here?

Donna Jean

And Capt. Francesco Schettino of the Costa Concordia was the only captain when the ship hit the rocks.

Are you stating that Leah's is the only opinion that matters on this thread? People have asked Drea the point of her thread. What is the point of your post?

[Guest Donna Jean]

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My point is that I'll listen to someone that is a medical professional on medical matters before I'll listen to opinions from lay people concerning medical matters...

And, I'll also ask what is the point of this thread?

Donna Jean

[Sally]

Not being a medical professional this is just conjecture on my part but my doctors have all said that hormones are essential for good health - so if anyone is doing this before middle age, they would have to start HRT right after the surgery or risk serious problems within a few years.

One of the effects of HRT on MTFs is a general softening of the skin and since scar tissue (even after very good plastic surgery) is always a little rougher and thicker than the healthy tissue around it I do not think that you would get the desired results without first softening the skin.

I would think that there woulkd be quite a shock to the system going from all male hormones to none over night s compared to the gradual shift of HRT.

No medical opinions just my thoughts on surgery first - hormones later.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest KimberlyF]

Well I don't usually post on feelings. I often post info I can back with links. My post up above is directly from the standards of care v7. Do we or don't we agree with the SOC treatment plan-4 options. Any or all in any order. This was made by medical professionals that deal specifically with us.

I don't know Leah's personal medical history, but my Neurologist, who's board certified and teaches and has written text books will not comment on ENT issues because it isn't his field.

And really nobody is discussing lightheadedness or it hurting when they pee. This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

[MaryEllen]

And really nobody is discussing lightheadedness or it hurting when they pee. This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

So, are you saying that you know more than the doctors do?

[Sally]

The original question was can it happen and of course the answer is yes - almost anything can happen with perseverance and sometimes money or public opinion - not all things that can happen are good or even should happen, somethings that never happen should have - that is just the way of the world.

People have called me courageous for following this path and transitioning - I am not courageous enough to venture too far off of the proven, well lighted path.

So for those of us who are not adventurous enough to jump into surgery (I am still debating if it is for me or not and I am coming up on my three year mark on HRT) I would stick with what has worked before.

Everyone must follow their own path to be happy but in my opinion, if you have had SRS - you have transitioned.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Donna Jean]

This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

Well, that's interesting because my doctor is a well known trans woman herself and one of my therapists is a Phd.

And THEY are always up to date on all of the latest things concerning our care......

Maybe you need better doctors that are more up to date with your care....

Donna Jean

[Guest KimberlyF]

And really nobody is discussing lightheadedness or it hurting when they pee. This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

So, are you saying that you know more than the doctors do?

Nope. This is why I mentioned the standards of care twice and not my manifesto.

I said something I have been told-mostly in jest but partly because this is our lives 24/7 vs a job for the medical professionals-we as a group are a pretty well informed group.

I'm glad I could clear this up. If anyone else has any questions or if anyone wants to answer if they support the treatment plan laid out in the SOC, that would clear up some of my confusion.

[Guest Donna Jean]

And really nobody is discussing lightheadedness or it hurting when they pee. This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

So, are you saying that you know more than the doctors do?

I'm glad I could clear this up. If anyone else has any questions or if anyone wants to answer if they support the treatment plan laid out in the SOC, that would clear up some of my confusion.

Yes, I totally support the plan that is laid out in the SOC, but in many cases I feel it is not rigid enough......

Donna Jean

[Guest KimberlyF]

This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

Well, that's interesting because my doctor is a well known trans woman herself and one of my therapists is a Phd.

And THEY are always up to date on all of the latest things concerning our care......

Maybe you need better doctors that are more up to date with your care....

Donna Jean

That's great! I'm happy when people are happy with their care. I wouldn't trade mine either, though the only one trans is the one receptionist. I have a lesbian doctor and a Jewish therapist.

And really nobody is discussing lightheadedness or it hurting when they pee. This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

So, are you saying that you know more than the doctors do?

I'm glad I could clear this up. If anyone else has any questions or if anyone wants to answer if they support the treatment plan laid out in the SOC, that would clear up some of my confusion.

Yes, I totally support the plan that is laid out in the SOC, but in many cases I feel it is not rigid enough......

Donna Jean

Could you supply some specifics? The SOC as they stand are not in sync with Leah's post as they do allow any of the four options without the other. Of course they only deal with people dealing with GD so it would put some of her fears to rest.

[Guest Donna Jean]

This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

Well, that's interesting because my doctor is a well known trans woman herself and one of my therapists is a Phd.

And THEY are always up to date on all of the latest things concerning our care......

Maybe you need better doctors that are more up to date with your care....

Donna Jean

That's great! I'm happy when people are happy with their care. I wouldn't trade mine either, though the only one trans is the one receptionist. I have a lesbian doctor and a Jewish therapist.

And really nobody is discussing lightheadedness or it hurting when they pee. This is transition-type stuff and my docs and therapists usually tell me we (transsexuals) always know the newest and latest before most of the docs as far as new research and theories, etc.

So, are you saying that you know more than the doctors do?

I'm glad I could clear this up. If anyone else has any questions or if anyone wants to answer if they support the treatment plan laid out in the SOC, that would clear up some of my confusion.

Yes, I totally support the plan that is laid out in the SOC, but in many cases I feel it is not rigid enough......

Donna Jean

Could you supply some specifics? The SOC as they stand are not in sync with Leah's post as they do allow any of the four options without the other. Of course they only deal with people dealing with GD so it would put some of her fears to rest.

First off....What does being "Jewish" have to do with any of this?

Secondly...No specifics....I stand by what I said...That SOC is not rigid enough....in my opinion....

Donna Jean

[MaryEllen]

As you appear to be knowledgable in the SOC, perhaps you could supply some specifics

[Guest KimberlyF]

First off....What does being "Jewish" have to do with any of this?

Donna Jean

I thought we were just having small talk?

[Carolyn Marie]

This is fun. Kind of like watching a tennis match. I can be the Jewish referee.

Whose service?

Carolyn Marie

[Paula ult]

Getting back to Drea's original question, if the following is true, yes it could happen, 5 - 6 years ago on a non transsexual board there was a man that wrote about contacting someone in Thailand about having srs, he did not want to fully transition, was not on HRT and was not going to a therapist, he went to Thailand, the person he met took him to a therapist that sold him a letter for surgery, he was taken to someone else that gave him shots of hormones so when the blood tests were done prior to srs his levels would show he was on HRT, in other words tricking the surgeon into thinking he was transitioning, he had his surgery and returned home and resumed living as a male, i do not know if this was true or the person was making it up, probably the former, but if true it fits Drea's scenario, though this person would have to take some kind of Hrt whether it be testosterone or estrogen to keep from having osteoporosis in the future, and he must have had a considerable amount of money to afford all of this.

Paula

[Drea]

Interesting Paula. What you describe wouldn't fit what I was referring to because I was specifically excluding underhanded means by which someone might fool the doctors in order to bypass the standards and obtain SRS. I was referring to people who were okayed for SRS by their therapists and with the agreement of their surgeon without the typical pre-requisites and expectations due to their individual needs/circumstances. People who didn't bribe these professionals but worked with them.

The incidence to which you refer Paula troubles me because the person was not only using nefarious means to bypass any standards but he wasn't even willing to see a therapist about whatever reasons motivated him.

Your story has brought a few others to my mind. There are few of them, but in all cases it involved someone who transitioned MTF, went thru the therapy, jumped thru the hoops, 1 year RLT, got the referral letters, had SRS, and immediatly after SRS went back to living as a guy. Does that mean they suddenly realize they made a mistake or was that the intent all along? I know in one of these instances it was the latter.

However odd these stories may seem, the real question is what are the long term results? In most cases we have no idea as they drop out of sight. In one of the cases I mentioned where someone got SRS without RLE or any intention of going thru a gender role change, I do know the outcome. This particular person was a school teacher. A year after her SRS she changed her mind about making a public role change and did transition. She was able to to keep her job after a bit of controversy with the parents of some of the kids. It has been 6 years since her transition and 7 years since her surgery and she is quite well and happy with how things worked out for her. So maybe her therapist knew their business by allowing her to have surgery without the normal expectations? After all, in the end it worked out well.

Secondly...No specifics....I stand by what I said...That SOC is not rigid enough....in my opinion....

It has been my observation that it is a constant within the the community that for those who are starting out wanting to transiiton tend to see the standards as being very rigid and restrictive while those who have reached or are close to their goals look back and view the standards as being quite reasonable or even too relaxed. I don' tknow how you felt when you started DJ but outlook now is fairly typical of those who have gotten to where they want to be. I always thought the standards were pretty reasonable even before I transtioned.

It also seems to be common that many of us tend to view trans from our own personal perspectives and define it around who we are. This is understandable because it is our experience. The risk is that we are liable to become judgemental judging who is trans enough or not, who is doing things the right way or not. I was no more immune to this tendency than anyone else however I have learned there is a very broad spectrum and what may seem unusual isn't necessarily so unusual as seen by the professionals who deal with this stuff. This is something my therapist taught me to understand very well.

[Guest Donna Jean]

Secondly...No specifics....I stand by what I said...That SOC is not rigid enough....in my opinion....

It has been my observation that it is a constant within the the community that for those who are starting out wanting to transiiton tend to see the standards as being very rigid and restrictive while those who have reached or are close to their goals look back and view the standards as being quite reasonable or even too relaxed. I don' tknow how you felt when you started DJ but outlook now is fairly typical of those who have gotten to where they want to be. I always thought the standards were pretty reasonable even before I transtioned.

I've felt this way since I started...not enough checks and balances in the SOC.....

I come from a flying background where life safety is of the utmost importance..

I found the SOC to be willy-nilly and easily bypassed.....

Am I happy about being past all that now? Well of course, but I never complained about the rules or the people that had my best interest at heart...

So many people tend to believe that the SOC is only there to screw with us.......wrong!

Like Paula's post we can always find people that circumvented the rules and regretted it later......

A number of people that I know that de-transitioned did it for religious reasons and it had nothing to do with living in role....

We've had members here that came on to talk of their de-transition back to live with the Mormon church....

So, there are a lot of reasons......

But, I find that those that de-transition have one common item among them...

They went too fast, even within the SOC.

I personally find it ludicrous for someone to get SRS without at least a year RLE...

But, each to their own.......

Dee Jay

[Drea]

I personally find it ludicrous for someone to get SRS without at least a year RLE...

Make it two and you have a deal!

The ones I know who decided to give up transition during RLE did so after a year, a year is very minimal. On the other hand, therapist and surgeons don't seem to be particularly firm about the year even given how often they will bend that a few months or even six months.

If I were queen I would make it mandatory to have at least a year equivalent of weekly therapy before SRS. Just 50 sessions which could be in a year or several years. Too many of those who haven't had significant therapy stick out like a sore thumb. Not visually, but in how they deal with things, other issues they clearly haven't resolved, and general low self esteem. And as queen I would pay for it too.

Alas I am not queen nor will I impose my standards on others. In fact I recognize most aren't like me and everyone needs to be encouraged to be who they are and not be confined to someone else's idea of what being trans is.

[Guest KarenLyn]

I knew one woman who had SRS before transitioning. She did it because of her work but she did begin her transition after surgery. We all approach things a little differently. She was just a little more extreme.

[Guest 1Stephanie2]

Well, there can be many reasons why or not, each of us wants the same thing, but maybe via a different route. The end result is the same, to be happy and content with ourselves how we picture ourselves and feel. We all in the big scheme of things fit the mold but it's all in the small details that makes us individuals. I'm trying so hard to work out how I can fully transition and it hurts and been hurting for a long time.

If there were (for me) a way to just get the SRS (dreamed my whole life to get rid of that stuff below my waist) and do the rest at a later stage/time then that would work for me. Why at a later stage, well, we all have things in our lives and while this is very painful I have a situation where by having one of those jobs what would be gone (guaranteed) and so all medical insurance/retirement, this maybe wrong but that's the way it is. My daughter just announced she is pregnant, my E-wife I still help out since she can't find full time employment and does not have a home, my son needs medical insurance and I help out for my E-wife's other daughter from her relationship from another that is no longer. How selfish would it be to drop the children just because I have a need, I'm not saying I'm altruistic to the extreme but the children come first.

Things are not so clear cut (although I wish for something to be cut off, we can dream still). My employment requires regular medical checks but does not check below the waist and so I could get financially stable for tow to three years and then complete my transition and in the process keep a hold my sanity. A few years (thought I was losing my mind) back I had tried to self castrate with a clamp device out of sheer hatred for what I have down below but the physical pain was too much.

A person will go to any extreme if they feel desperate enough but yet to them at the time, it doesn't seem so extreme, it's all a matter of perspective.

[Guest Pammy]

Does the name Samantha Kane/Sam Hashimi/Charles Kane ring a bell?

In my opinion, SRS should not be performed on anyone without HRT and RLT unless medically contraindicated. I might let the RLT thing slide a bit if it really would be too dangerous for the person in question. But those should really be very rare.

Just my unqualified opinion, of course.

Love

Pamela

[Guest KimberlyF]

Does the name Samantha Kane/Sam Hashimi/Charles Kane ring a bell?

In my opinion, SRS should not be performed on anyone without HRT and RLT unless medically contraindicated. I might let the RLT thing slide a bit if it really would be too dangerous for the person in question. But those should really be very rare.

Just my unqualified opinion, of course.

Love

Pamela

Yeah...the first is a nutjob who shouldn't factor into anyone's serious discussions on anything. And that person did all of this when the standards were pretty high, but money will always talk. They also lived fulltime a bit and were on HRT. They could have passed through with certain GTs today.

Many in the medical community understand there are places where SRS is appropriate prior to HRT and/or RLT. It isn't about meeting anyone's expectations of what is right or wrong. It is about finding the best way case by case to rid the patient of the pain they are feeling. Whatever route that takes.

[Guest vtphoenix]

I never thought the old standards were rigid. Living in role for a year did not seem like an unreasonable thing to ask, nor did it seem like a very long time to have to do so. Of course I wanted HRT so that was fine too. Getting letters? Didn't seem too hard if you were really ready and why would you yourself not want to make sure you were really ready? So no, I doubt one could ever call them rigid. However, I can understand that people have different needs and there's certainly room in my world view to accomodate someone who wants to get surgery but still live as a male. Ultimately, what the medical and psychiatric community needs to do is actually study long-term happiness. There aren't that many studies out there now and they're mostly godawful with their small sample sizes, poor patient follow-ups, and bias laden questions.

On the subject of letters, when it was time to get mine, it was ridiculously easy, really too easy in my opinion. While some therapists have taken their "gatekeeper" role very seriously and are very rigid in their thinking, who is specializing in these issues now? My therapist AND psychiatrist are both members of the GLBT community so might they not be biased the other direction, being TOO lenient to those seeking SRS? And my therapist said that I am the first trans person she written an SRS letter for. She's the best therapist I've ever had but that's not exactly encouraging. It's really important to remember that the ultimate responsibility rests on us - always has and always will.

Not only are the SOC not rigid enough to prevent people slipping through the cracks, it would be almost impossible to make them rigid enough and still properly care for the people that need HRT and SRS.