Clueless On What's Up!?

[KieranD]

So, here's how the story has gone so far. Pre-T people said "Wow, you'd totally get seen as male after a couple months on T." I go on hormones and 6 months in people say "just a few more months." A few more months pass, and I get the same thing as well as "you look exactly the same, maybe if you lost some weight." I lost weight. A lot of weight, and in an unhealthy way. I waited more time on hormones, lost about 50 lbs and still have people telling me "well, if you lost 20 more..." which has brought me to a breaking point. Frack that. I'm not going to try that any more. With this, I'm still clueless on what about me is making people think "female" so often. I don't think there's anything clearly female about me. People have said it's my hair:

I think my hair looks alright. Others say it's my torso (I have a pic of that somewhere else) but since I lost weight all of my clothes are kinda big and you can't really see my shape under 'em. Some people say it's just my face shape and everybody knows you can't really fix that unless you get surgery. What the heck?!

[Guest Ney'ite]

Just my 2¢ . . .

I am not sure what the rest of you looks like, but I do know that it is not possible to get an unbiased opinion from other trans people, nor your friends. The reason is, trans folk know because you asked them, and friends knew you before and during so they will always see the old you.

If you are interested in wondering about how you are seen unbiased, the general public is probably going to be a better gauge. There, no one knows you from before, and have no idea and go only on what they see in front of them.

[VickySGV]

Apparently, these are people who see you frequently and may have known your former self for years. Don't listen to them!! Easy as that!! Get near some people who have never seen you before, and take their pulse on what they see. Watch what happens when you meet someone you last saw two years ago. Totally different stories there. Mostly in your favor. Also do not ask someone in an area that sees butch lesbians on a regular basis.

Bad news, it will take a couple of years on the hormones for them to do all their stuff. Natal males do not finish cooking until their mid twenties. (Take it from one who knows on that.)

[KieranD]

Let me back track a bit.

These are not people who knew me "before." I've been out for 8 years and hardly know anybody who knew me before I started my transition. I go on my "am I getting gendered correctly?" based on the percentage of strangers that get it right (well, since I know folks don't know about non-binary identities I settle for male/man). It's slightly better than what it was before hormones. And with that, I live in a relatively "liberal" area so I assume people see butch lesbians more often than trans people.

[Charlize]

if it helps, my wife thinks i look like an old guy in a wig or at least has said that. When i go out doors are opened gas is pumped and guys are sooo sweet to me. I have no trouble in the changing or powder rooms. She sees the past not the present. Some of that may be there for you even with people who have watched you change. Do you have any facial hair. That cinched it for a ftm friend. Anyway,

Hugs, Charlie

[KieranD]

if it helps, my wife thinks i look like an old guy in a wig or at least has said that. When i go out doors are opened gas is pumped and guys are sooo sweet to me. I have no trouble in the changing or powder rooms. She sees the past not the present. Some of that may be there for you even with people who have watched you change. Do you have any facial hair. That cinched it for a ftm friend. Anyway,

Hugs, Charlie

Ah, see it's the other way round. My friends are all really supportive and always see me as I identify but when I go out into the world I get hassled for using the restrooms and get called miss and ma'am...a lot.

I have some sideburns but most of my facial hair is relatively light. Some grows by my sideburns/jaw line, but most is under my chin/neck area which just looks gross.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

I still say people who know us and see us often usually never notice much change. But those who know us but only see us once in a year or so? They freak out!

Lizzy

[KieranD]

I still say people who know us and see us often usually never notice much change. But those who know us but only see us once in a year or so? They freak out!

Lizzy

Not so much. On a few trans forums I'll post an occasional picture and people don't really notice a difference.

Anyways...still not sure what people see and I'm not sure why things haven't really changed much.

[Guest Elizabeth K]

Maybe it's different for everyone.

Lizzy

[Svenna]

Keiran,

I'm gonna guess that it is voice or mannerisms or stride or some other cues you are sending with your physicality...

Just a guess, based on your supplied details, because I don't think your photo screams 'female' at all...

Svenna

[KieranD]

http://db.tt/0IFFilU7

That's the link to an audio clip for my voice. A large chunk of me is thinking about how trans women have trouble being seen how they identify because generally people think male unless there's a significant number of qualities. Yet for me I feel like I have most everything and don't get it. My mannerisms might be slightly feminine because I feel feminine, but overall I've squashed it temporarily for the sake of trying to be seen as male. I also tend to walk from the shoulders and not the hip. At times I wonder if I acted more feminine if I'd be seen as male more because a masculine woman wouldn't behave that way.

[JJ]

One thing I've noticed as I lost weight is that for awhile as it went off I looked more feminine -but I don't know if that was seeing a face from the past emerge that I recognized or if something about the weight loss did it. I tend to replace fat with water and then drop 10 lbs or more all at once and that is when I would notice it. Still got gendered correctly though I must admit.

Have you had your hormone levels checked to be sure the T isn't converting to E or you don't have an insensitivity?

Also though this may not be what you want to hear but from past pictures you have or had-can't tell from the pic-a soft round face. Are you at your ideal weight? If not it may be necessary to lose down to it to lose the female pattern fat on your face and body. It was necessary for me. But also necessary and important to do it healthily because an unhealthy diet can cause puffiness as your body struggles with imbalances. Losing weight in a way that makes you look male requires that it be based on exercise in my opinion. Cutting calories-especially cutting them too much -without exercise just causes you to consume your own muscle tissue and look more, not less feminine. Fat can only be metabolized so fast.

I know that I have only been misgendered once except when forced to disclose because of official business and that was an old guy in his 80s who I'm pretty sure didn't see well and was fooled by the foil on my Mixed Martial Arts T-shirt without looking at the design or knowing what it was, In fact he apologized for not holding a door. Then as I passed him and went on in the barber shop he took a second look, looked distressed and hurried away-I was nice and just said "Not necessary" . And that is the first and only in 6 or 7 months. Oddly it happened suddenly when people began gendering me correctly-like someone flipped a switch and never went back. I went from maybe 20% of the time to 100% in less than a week.

The only difference I know was in how I saw myself. Maybe it changed how I moved or something. Having a tough attitude isn't the way because I was just called a female dog when I did that before I was seen as male. In fact I think it hurts rather than helps because many butch women take on that tough guy attitude. I don't know what you do at all so I am not saying you are. But it's kind of like the fastest way to be seen as a short man is to get up on the testicles of your feet and puff up all macho-the fastest way to be seen as butch is to be all macho I suspect.

For us it is especially frustrating because we have no clues to how we should be gendered that a female doesn't also adopt at times. It has to be a complete package and presentation. But it does happen-unless you get frustrated and give up. You have to keep working on it. You don't mention your chest either and that can be a big clue. If people find anything puzzling like a soft face they automatically check chest first and butt next. If they are rounded they pretty much slot you as female and move on. Just human nature. And these are just ideas and suggestions.

I hope you find your solution. I do understand your frustration. All too well from the months when it used to happen to me.

Johnny

[KieranD]

Yea so...Johnny...I really don't think you understand my frustration. It's been 7 years or more since I came out. Over a year and a half since I started hormones and I've been seen as female somewhere around 80%+ of the time. That's much different than only a few months on hormones and getting the occasional "she." It's not my personality to act tough. I know my arms an legs are leaner and more developed, and that I no longer want to lose weight. My "ideal weight" is a weight where I don't have to worry about my mental health (I'm not there yet). My face didn't look like I lost 50 lbs and really...if I already said I have a problem with an eating disorder, suggesting weight loss in "the right way" is a horrible idea.

My levels are fine.

Here's my torso:

Since I lost weight none of my clothes fit, they're all too baggy so seeing my chest is an impossibility.

[KieranD]

What my face fuzz looks like after 3 weeks of not shaving...it's nothing significant but I feel it should be enough.

[JJ]

Kieran,

Perhaps I don't understand your frustration but although I have only been on hormones 15 months I did have to live with this for over 60 years and have a terminal illness where I have already exceeded my life expectancy so that every day and every hour of living as myself is very important to me because my time to do so is limited. I therefore found being misgendered extremely frustrating when it was happening. That doesn't mean I understand YOUR frustration with it but certainly I DO understand being frustrated by it.

Also I don't think that eating healthily and exercising is a horrible idea with an eating disorder. If you are at the weight that pleases you then there is no reason to change unless it does bother you. I'm not talking about starvation but HEALTHY eating with the weight loss driven by exercise rather than calorie restriction. I lost 200 lbs that way and did it healthily - otherwise with my health problems I'd be under a headstone instead of typing right now. But that is a personal decision for you to make. My suggestion was just that-in an effort to help with your problem.

Basically it comes down to the world is not going to change how it sees and genders you until you change what is causing yourself to be seen as female predominantly. It could be voice or mannerisms or appearance or a combination of all of them. But you are lucky with your chest because even wearing my old extra large shirts, though I now wear a men's small at 145 lbs, my chest is clearly visible and clearly female unless I bind. Which I hate-my greatest source of dysphoria-since asthama and lung damage limits the time I can bind.

However my main suggestion and one I want to repeat is to see your endo and have your hormone levels checked. Getting the right T balance without having it convert to E can be tricky and it can change. If they are at the desired levels then you may need to be checked for androgen insensitivity. It can occur in varying degrees and prevent the T from completely doing it's job. There are medications that can do that too. I almost took a prescription cough syrup only to discover when I researched it causes T levels to plummet - bottom out in fact if taken long in natal males. Drs don't worry much because a natal male will make it up after discontinuing the medication or they can supplement. For me the implications are totally different

Each of us is different and there may not be a problem with the way T is working for you but judging from the pics I am not seeing changes in skin and beard that most would expect after that long on T. I know that if I go even a week without shaving I look like a fuzzy caterpillar with a lot of stubble and I am considered to have a sparse beard like my male relatives, due probably to Native American ancestry. My face is much more angular than it has been since puberty though I have been much thinner than I am now several times in my adult life. It is worth checking anyway because if there is a problem you are in effect beating your head against the wall trying to fix the problem without addressing the cause. If the tests are all normal then you know to look elsewhere for what is causing you to be so frequently misgendered.

These are just ideas and suggestions trying to help

Johnny

[KieranD]

There's nothing wrong with my levels or anything like that. I did post an audio clip above if you want to listen. Look, T is very much a YMMV thing. I just happen to be on the slower side.

Check out them sideburns.

I've got a whole lot of body hair, just not on my face or arms.

[KieranD]

I'm also not on any other medication. My likeliness of having androgen insensitivity is extremely low. I don't have any symptoms and my doctor feels as if my changes on hormones are slower than average but not abnormally slow.

[Svenna]

Keiran,

Doctors generally take the path of least resistance, and ordering the least tests possible, whenever they feel something else, more probable, MAY be responsible for the issues...

The old adage to "Take two aspirin and call me in the morning" is based on this phenomenon...most patients do NOT call back in the AM..

Sometimes the rare answer is THE answer, though, no matter how unlikely it is thought to be...

I learned this the hard way and lost out on a whole lot of life as a result...

Hopefully an easier, more readily available answer will arise, who knows?

Best of luck finding the solution!

Svenna

[Guest CariadsCarrot]

I agree with Svenna, Keiran. Wouldn't it be worth pushing the issue with your doctor just to be 100% certain...even if there is 1% chance that there could be a problem, if you are that 1% and finding out and solving it could end all this misery for you...well if it was me, I'd want to know mate and I wouldn't sit down and shut up until I did.

Gabe

[KieranD]

I'm not sure what it is that you're suggesting I bring up. If it's AIS I can't have it because it would've shown up during puberty or with my 7 siblings. I have more body hair from my muffin top to my neck than my 19 year old brother and 22 year old brother combined. It's from the neck up that's a problem. Why ask to get an expensive blood test for something I have no symptoms of? If you have an ear ache do you go yo the doctor and insist on having your lungs looked at?

It's bad enough that I was almost short on money to cover my last set of labs which included the useless hormone levels test. Seriously, because I'm taking shots there's a massive fluctuation of what my levels might be that the test is relatively useless.

I am having social changes at a slower rate than most trans men but I've seen massive changes in myself. It's other people who don't see it. Have you heard my voice? Have you seen my sideburns?

The chance of it being my health as the problem is nowhere near 1%. It's a fraction of a percent. I'm about as likely to be diagnosed with wolfhausen syndrome.

[Guest Lupi]

Uh, Dude u look like a guy to me... I don't get it either. I deffinately don't see any girl in these pics.

[KieranD]

Uh, Dude u look like a guy to me... I don't get it either. I deffinately don't see any girl in these pics.

I'm not a dude but yea...I don't get it myself.

[Guest angels wings]

Hello Kieran Lupi is from the land down under ,Australia . We use the word dude like saying matey or mate .

[Guest Lupi]

Hello Kieran Lupi is from the land down under ,Australia . We use the word dude like saying matey or mate .

Lol, thanks Angel.

Sometimes I forget that not everyone understands Aussie slang. XD

[KieranD]

Hello Kieran Lupi is from the land down under ,Australia . We use the word dude like saying matey or mate .

Those are reserved for men, usually. I'm not a man.