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Guest Evalyn_G

My Fathers Response

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Guest Sarinah

When I came out to my parents several months ago I gave them a folder full of information about being Transgender, some basic information on the subject and some articles of religious support. This last week my father finally got around to reading it and then gave me an article as a response. Here is the link to the article, will you christians here on the forum read it over and help me come up with scripture responses.

http://www.bmei.org/jbem/volume4/num2/scip..._operations.php

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Guest Elizabeth K

I read the paper. There is so much in it that is incorrect it would take a hundred page response. You asked for a Christian person's reponse and especially to the scriptures referenced. I am a devout Christian. As a Christian, I cannot condone this type of reasoning and reference to Scripture. It is not GOD's will that we be judged by others, and that is a fundamental part of Christianity which comes directly from the teachings of Christ. Now I do understand it can there can be others sent to guide us, but by making suggestions. This article makes accusations, and is the devil's work, in that person's own definition.

I always believe when I see such work, I suspect it is from a truly disturbed person who feels they can lessen their own shortcomes of character, by projecting fault into others. But then, only GOD knows.

That may seem very strong. But Jesus will deliver us unto the hands of GOD and into HIS judgement, not man. The author will have some explaining to do at the end as to why he chose to judge others, which is the responsibiliy of GOD.

As a personal note. I asked GOD for resolution in my life, and I was given this chance. Anyone who denies me can take it up with my BOSS.

Elizabeth

Oh - I use GOD in capitalization, which is really the Creator. The image of the Creator is not male, female or even human. We are souls, not our bodies, and that is what is meant. Gender is not important to the Creator, in my opinion.

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Sally

I read the article and I have so many problems with it that I can't even list them all.

I am a Christian by practice of my beliefs and how I treat my fellow man, I am not able to jump up at a moment's notice and quote scriptures to prove my points - I leave that to the ones who in my opinion are so unsure of their own beliefs that they find a text here and there to support it enough to encourage followers - there is safety in numbers!

As to body 'mutilation', the practice of circumcision would seem to fit here and that came about from Abraham's refusal to offer his son Issac as a sacrifice (I was circumcised so I'm already doomed according to this zealot - a perfectly good non judgmental word for him). Abraham is one of the leaders of the Jewish Faith, Christianity stems directly from Issac's descendants and Islam follows Ishmael (his half brother - don't get this guy started on that or there will be a holy war). Three major religions stem from this one man who defied God and Started a practice of body mutilation - God respected Abraham and blessed the sacrifice of the unneeded skin rather than the death of Issac.

His logic is so obviously flawed by the fact that he feels that God is against body mutilation and yet doing it a second time makes it right - ever hear that two wrongs don't make a right?

You can find a text that taken in and of itself seems to imply that the Bible is in total agreement with you. There is a verse that by itself says that Ruth lit a camel - does this condone smoking - I don't think so, but just reading that part you could say that it does.

The body is a temple was the motto of the pantheistic Greeks that he didn't care too much for.

I guess that transplants are right out of anything holy in his mind - I just hope he doesn't need one sometime, the Doctor just might have read this article.

The Bible is very clear on one point, that is made numerous times in the Old Testament and the New, Love God is the judge, the only judge!

In the Old Testament, Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord!" Look it up, I don't have a Bible in my work room and I like the King James Version (It reads like poetry.)

In the New Testament Jesus said, "Let he who is among you without sin cast the first stone." Again, I know the bible, but I spent my time reading the words and trying to understand their meaning rather than the 'Chapter and Verse', maybe he should have spent more time reading the words and less time memorizing the numbers - not for me to say.

I don't have the time or inclination to spend any more of my life dealing with people who feel that it is their mission to tell everyone else how to live, what if he is wrong and is actually leading all of his followers to hell - a possibility, there are hundreds of religions and if each one is correct and theirs is the only way then billions of followers are doomed.

That is why I will never interfere with other religion's ideas and beliefs, they might be right and I don't want to lead them astray and if I am right they will be accepted into the after life anyway.

According to the Bible that he so likes to quote, "Man is not saved by acts or deeds but by Grace alone.", God determines for all of us and he doesn't require this gentleman's pre-screening.

If you believe in being saved by Grace alone, then how can what anyone does to their own body make any possible difference?

And if you don't, how do you decide which passages to believe and which to throw out?

Easy, keep only the ones that support your vie point - that's what everybody else does!

The difference is, I don't go tell him that I am right and he is doomed to hell fire and damnation - it's not my place and I don't believe in that kind of punishment from a forgiving God - which is the God of the New Testament, the life and death of Jesus the Christ was the proof of this nature of God.

I have faith that I am doing what I must do, not against God's will, for God works in mysterious ways and how are we to know that there isn't some great Cosmic Plan that involves us in ways that we might never know or understand.

Life itself is a mystery and a different path for every individual on this planet, find yours and follow it.

Peace and love even to those who disagree,

Sally

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Guest Sarinah

I know that many of us read this article and immediately become disgusted, upset, or possibly angry. Unfortunately I think this is exactly the way my father sees transsexualism. I have many of the same objections and concerns that have already been spoken about this article, but I dont think my father will truly listen to them unless I list off my own set of verses. My family has been in some bad religious situations and it has caused my father to cling very heavily to the details of the Bible and be judgmental about peoples actions. He is not a bad person, hes not full of hate, but rather he is afraid of being deceived (as he has been before) and that the consequences will be unbearable. His fear extends to me, hes afraid for me.

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Sally

I want you to know that I believe that your father is agood man and only concerned for your well being, I am having the same problem with my mother.

The 'he ' I was refering to was always the one who wrote the article.

I can not get angry with anyone who is trying to portect thier child, I just hope that you can find the verses, after work, I'll try to look up some of the ones that I mentioned so that your father can find them.

Love ya,

Sally

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Guest Zenda

Kia Ora Sarinah,

Here's a couple of links that might be of help...

http://www.drbecky.com/lynnmont.html

http://207.152.67.6/gog/pdf/p313_336.pdf

:rolleyes: For me the bible's 'just' a book, of no importance whatsoever, however I can understand for some it's a major part of their lives-their god's word so to speak...

I could rattle on as to why there's no god, but that's not going to be of any help to you or your dad... ;)

Good luck with convincing your dad...

Metta Jendar :)

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Guest

This is the verse most point out: "A woman shall not wear a man's clothing, nor shall a man put on a woman's clothing, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God". Dev. 22:5.

As a former seminarian studying for the priesthood this very topic came up. Rule number one when discussing the Old Testament was this: One cannot discuss the Old Testament without taking into account the history, conditions and culture and practices of that time. He used stoning as an example for most offenses which of course is illegal and not practiced in "MODERN" society today. While Iran is the only Muslim country to allow Transsexuals it is a double edged sword becuase being gay is a hanging offense there. Gay men are being given a choice to either have SRS or loose their lives. As you can see they don't draw a distinction between Transsexuals and gays. It's not they are for Transsexuals as they are against Gay's. This is the homophobic answer.

As to the verse itself you have to consider the customs of the time. Men and women were segragated under many circumstances including in church. Some ancient churches still have walls in them originally built to seperate the sexes. Women were covered head to toe a practice that continues in some Muslim countries today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burqa . Single men and women didn't mix. If you went on a date the entire family went along to protect her virtue. Of course not only could you not get to first base, you couldn't even leave the batters box :lol: . As with anything you make a rule against man's ingenuity will prevail and find a way around this. Ask any accountant to verify this about loopholes. Anyway what was a randy young man to do? One got the bright idea to dress as a woman so he could be with the girls. It wasn't because the man wanted to be a girl or wanted to crossdress. As we know since the dawn of time some men have one thing on their mind when it comes to women ....:) booty. This is how the species survives after all these years.

Of course the clergy wanted to stop this practice since apparantly some women were dressing as men as well. The idea was when in church your mind had to be on God not have your eyes on the derrierre's of the young women on the other side of the church. After all if GOD wanted man to look at women he wouldn't have put them in Burqa's would He :) . The verse wasn't written against Crossdressers or Transsexuals, it was written to keep men from getting distracted by breaking the segragation of the sexes. It was to keep men's minds on God not Hanky Panky. There is a minority view that all this coverup was done to keep the preachers who are of course sin free :) from eyeing the pretty blonde in the red dress in the front row :) and his mind on his work.

In the modern world the sex's are no longer kept seperated. So the reason for the verse is moot. Some like the Rev Haggerty who had relations with gay men used to yell the loudest against gays and Transsexuals. Of course he didn't expect to get caught either. I guess it's "Do as I say, not as I do". To them I say he who is without sin may cast the first stone". I've been waiting all my life to see the headline "Man without Sin casts first stone". I suspect i will never see it in my lifetime.

Laura

http://www.tsroadmap.com/mental/spirit.html

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Guest

Now on a more serious note Transsexualism is a medical condition recognized by Doctor's in the American Medical Association and both Apa"s. It is not a religious issue except for uneducated fire and brimstone preachers pointing fingers. On this site alone from our crisis rooms 50% of transsexuals have had at least one suicide attempt by their 20th birthday with one as young as age 7. This is serious as NO GROUP has a suicide rate that high. It cannot be cured with prayer, incense or holy water. Treatment consists of therapy with a gender therapist and surgery for some.

While there are Exodus style church groups promising cures they are not long term and amount to nothing more than temporary purging. Some here who have been to these places actually attempted suicide here. The truth is they do more harm than good. Why? These groups fear LGBT people to a homophobic point. As one Exodus official told one gay man " You would be better off to commit suicide than return to the homosexual lifestyle". It is unfathomable that men of God would tell people such a thing. Sounds like genocide of LGBT's to me.

Transgender people need to be treated by professionals who are experts on our condition not by thumpers armed with bible verse written before the birth of Christ in ancient times in a different culture.

Laura

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Sally

Here they are, from the King James Version,

The Gospel according to St. John Chapter 8, verse 7 Cast the first stone,

The Epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Ephesians Chapter 2, Verses 8 & 9 Saved by Grace,

The Gospel according to St. Matthew Chapter 7, verse 1 Judge not

There are the important three.

Love ya,

Sally

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Guest April63

Sarinah, if I were you, this is what I would say:

"Dad, I realize that at the moment, you do not support my desire to transition. To me, this is a real, serious issue. I feel and believe that I am transgendered, and this body does not match my perception of my gender.

I realize that your/our church considers this act sinful. Currently, I do not believe transsexuality is a sin of any kind. I ask for your love and support for me as your child. I would love if you would support my transition, but I cannot force you. I only ask that you think about this, in the Bible, the Pharisees brought an adulterer unto Jesus and asked Him what they should do. He replied, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her'.

What I mean to tell you is, it is not your place to judge my sins. That task is the Lord's. I appreciate your love and guidance, and I am fully aware that you consider this act to be sinful. Thank you for looking out for me, but this is the path I want to follow. Please continue to provide me with your love, support, and guidance, and please leave my own actions between God and me.

Thank you, Dad. I love you."

What do you think?

April

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Guest Sarinah
Sarinah, if I were you, this is what I would say:

"Dad, I realize that at the moment, you do not support my desire to transition. To me, this is a real, serious issue. I feel and believe that I am transgendered, and this body does not match my perception of my gender.

I realize that your/our church considers this act sinful. Currently, I do not believe transsexuality is a sin of any kind. I ask for your love and support for me as your child. I would love if you would support my transition, but I cannot force you. I only ask that you think about this, in the Bible, the Pharisees brought an adulterer unto Jesus and asked Him what they should do. He replied, 'He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her'.

What I mean to tell you is, it is not your place to judge my sins. That task is the Lord's. I appreciate your love and guidance, and I am fully aware that you consider this act to be sinful. Thank you for looking out for me, but this is the path I want to follow. Please continue to provide me with your love, support, and guidance, and please leave my own actions between God and me.

Thank you, Dad. I love you."

What do you think?

April

I have had more then one conversation with my father that was very similar to what you have said. He becomes a bit defensive and responds with comments like "I am not trying to judge you I am trying to help you avoid making a horrible decision". It is clear to me that both my father and the person who wrote this article do not truly understand the concept of being transgender. It seems to me that they misinterpret transgender/transsexualism as being about Sex and about Gratification and Lust, if that were the case then yes it would be a sin, by my definition. However as we know being trans is not about lust but about guiding our outward appearance to better match our hearts and minds. It seems no matter how many ways I tell my father or show him in documents he cant seem to shake this delusion he has formed about transsexualism, I hope that someday he will come to the understanding that I have.

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Guest mwade1981

I know you asked for a christian respons, and I am not a christian, so I'll keep my personal opinion to myself. But I do like to argue with people of all religiouse faiths as a matter of sport, and in order to do so afectivly I have to study there belefes, or at least have an easy refferance to were they get there arguments. The site that I've been using recently to help me find biblical quotes both in support and in disagreament with varing topics is http://skepticsannotatedbibl

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Guest Chrissie
I know that many of us read this article and immediately become disgusted, upset, or possibly angry. Unfortunately I think this is exactly the way my father sees transsexualism. I have many of the same objections and concerns that have already been spoken about this article, but I dont think my father will truly listen to them unless I list off my own set of verses. My family has been in some bad religious situations and it has caused my father to cling very heavily to the details of the Bible and be judgmental about peoples actions. He is not a bad person, hes not full of hate, but rather he is afraid of being deceived (as he has been before) and that the consequences will be unbearable. His fear extends to me, hes afraid for me.

I left Christianity behind because of beliefs like your father stated as well as others... but thats not important to what I have to say...

One thing I tell seriously devout christian transsexuals is this... "God is perfect and doesn't make mistakes correct? If you get told You are an abomination against God Remind the person saying that he must have had a reason to make You the way You are, because God created everyone in his image and if you (person You are talking to) reject his works than you are not the true christian you believe yourself to be."

It also helps if You believe this... God created you the way he did for a reason.... If it was to throw the Self- righteous off their high horses or to teach you some measure of humility or whatever doesn't matter. You are a work of God... and You are not the one sinning, in this case, those who reject You and judge You as an abominations are.

:blush: for some reason that thing I tell christians gets longer and longer each time I tell it. :huh: but the sentiment is there and thats important part...

You need to realize that a lot of the of Self-Righteous Christians have used the bible and even re written it for their political agendas. Want to throw dad of his Bible induced fervor... Use a bible that PRECEDES the one that he's familiar with. ;)B)

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Guest Sarinah
Kia Ora Sarinah,

Here's a couple of links that might be of help...

http://www.drbecky.com/lynnmont.html

http://207.152.67.6/gog/pdf/p313_336.pdf

:rolleyes: For me the bible's 'just' a book, of no importance whatsoever, however I can understand for some it's a major part of their lives-their god's word so to speak...

I could rattle on as to why there's no god, but that's not going to be of any help to you or your dad... ;)

Good luck with convincing your dad...

Metta Jendar :)

thank you Jendar i found this http://207.152.67.6/gog/pdf/p313_336.pdf writing to be very valuable, it is well written and understandable and conveys what I believe is the truth about being trans. I only hope my father and many others can see in it what I see.

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