What happens to the frenulum? (Kinda graphic question)

[Guest]

So this has always sorta bothered me about SRS and I hoping someone knows...I apologize for being rather graphic.

What happens to the frenulum of the penis (underside where glans meets the shaft) when one gets SRS? This is the most sensitive spot on the penis but every diagram and video I've seen of SRS seems to use the top half of the glans for the clitoris and then discard the rest. Frankly this worries me. Then again I know these days most post op girls are still orgasmic so perhaps it's not as an important piece of tissue as it seems?

So anyone know? I know it probably differs surgeon to surgeon, but it seems ludicrous that this seemingly crucial bit would be gotten rid of or placed in an inaccessible spot.

[VickySGV]

That is a new one on me Kira, the Frenum was NEVER a big source of nerve energy before HRT, and was even less so after a year on E, when all of my erectile function disappeared. My big nerve areas were on the top of the penis Glans above and just behind the urethral opening, and that tissue is what has become my clitoris, which I know for sure since every now and then when I am dilating an rub it, it still feels like it is in the old position on my penis. I hear GUYS talking about Frenum piercing a lot, but none of them brag about heightened sensation for themselves because of this. I won't go into the B&D applications that involve that tissue for this forum. I am just not sure your information was the best on this, but we are all different.

It will depend on the surgeon where the tissue goes, my tissue from that area has become my Labia Minora and clitoral hood, along with the mucus tissue from the urethral extension which does give me some self lubrication, The other penile tissue was combined with scrotal tissue to line my vagina and extend it to my current depth (which is more than adequate). I am a Bowers girl but I know that the other North American surgeons do not give any special purpose to the "little bridle" as the Latin name translates, nor do the South American surgeons.

Your best bet would be to contact any of the surgeons and ASK them where the Frenulum goes in their surgical work, and I know most of them are evolving in their techniques === another member here had surgery from Dr. Bowers after I did, and when she and I were talking IRL about it, there had been a change in the year and a half between our surgeries but it is not enough of a difference to matter.

i am hoping one of our anatomy experts will look at this one, I am not an anatomy specialist, just a Post Op Girl who is happy as a lark with what has happened to me. It did take me nearly a year + to get full erotic sensitivity into my clitoris and the surrounding area, but as said I am damned happy with what I have. If you are this concerned with one bit of tissue, it may be your final block to SRS, and that is alright too.

[Guest]

Well as far as I'm concerned my glans is nearly sensationless, so yeah it's a bit of concern. Didn't realize this wasn't the same for everyone.

[Guest Sarah Faith]

Well as far as I'm concerned my glans is nearly sensationless, so yeah it's a bit of concern. Didn't realize this wasn't the same for everyone.

That sounds like a possible result of a poorly done circumcision. A close friend of mine (non trans) has similar issues, in fact he has pain at times something thats bothered him since we were teens.

Anyways, SRS is actually a microsurgery there is a lot going on down there that a video just doesn't do justice. nerved get moved around and bundled in completely different ways based on what's there. And there isn't a 100% guarantee that SRS will result in sensation down there either.. Moving nerves around is tricky business even for the best surgeons, so as a result there is always the possibility nerves will get damaged and you will have no feeling. (Not as common these days as it used to be) Anyways.. These would be concerns one would share with their surgeon, they may take that fact into consideration when planning nerve placement for optimal sensation. Really however that is something only the surgeon can determine is possible or not.

[Guest]

Sorry I asked....*facepalm.

[Guest]

Think my last reply could be misread, thanks for the reply ... I mean I'm literally sorry I asked. Ignorance is bliss type of thing.

[Guest KerryUK]

I'm very glad you did ask Kira, I must admit that I sometimes wonder about the sensitivity of the post op clitoris (or rather mine). I know what you mean about the Frenulum, it is just a piece of connecting skin which I don't believe has many nerve endings (or at least not for me). I've been trying to treat areas around the glans like potential clitoris 'material for the op' to see if I could achieve an 'O' by stroking these different areas. I've found that the most sensitive areas tend to be all around the Urethral opening and underneath in those areas surrounding the Frenulum. The Frenulum itself? no not much sensation at all. I've also noticed that there seems to be less sensation the further back along the glans you go (towards the body or away from the urethral opening) and especially the large 'flat' area on top. So my guessing, is that the material around the urethral opening is used to create the neo-clitoris. Anyway, I've got my consultation with the surgeon in 1 1/2 weeks so I'll try to find out from him.

[Guest]

Okay so I just googled "most sensitive spot of penis" and every single article pointed to the underside of the glans where it meets the shaft. Is this not the frenulum? So confused.

[VickySGV]

OK, I saw the articles. Most of what I read in the three or four I saw was someone bragging about their own happy life. None of them seem to be actual physiological studies as far as nerve concentration goes, and all of them claim that this is for un-circumcised males, and that circumcision damages or totally destroys that sensitivity factor.

I did have infant circumcision as a prophylactic procedure, thus I never experienced any of the life of an uncircumcised male. That would be the reason I never heard about the Frenum sensitivity.

Dr. Suporn in Thailand is the only one I know of who makes a big point of using tissue from the foreskin in his surgeries, and it is used in the Labia minora for color and skin texture, but if the patient has been circumcised Suporn had other skin that he used for that purpose. Doctors Bowers and Brassard use under-shaft skin urethral mucosa for the labia minora .

If you were circumcised for either religious or prophylactic reasons it seems that your question is moot to your life. You are not ever going to face the problem you presented. If you have not been circumcised and still have your foreskin, then it will be used wisely by your surgeon As Sarah said, there are no 100% guarantees that perfect nerve connection and sensation will be restored, and before any surgeon touches you, you sign a big thick pile of paper that says you consent to total and complete lack of sensation in that area ever again just to go in the OR. Heavy worry about that possibility is a very good reason NOT to consider SRS in your future, since it means that you would most likely have regrets in short and long term.

I took the chance and as I said, I am happy with my result. I may be the only one who is, but who said I was normal or typical?

[Guest]

I don't really want to continue the conversation, but I feel like we're talking about two completely different things. The websites I saw were places like web md and sex advice colums. And I'm not talking about foreskin?

Doesn't really matter, I won't be having SRS for a very long time ---I'll worry about it then.

[Guest KerryUK]

I don't really want to continue the conversation

Wow, that makes me feel sorry that I even took the time to add to this blog now. I add to blogs in the hope that they will help (if not the original poster then others who read it) and it takes time to write them - in this case, I sadly feel that my time was wasted. Ah well, 10 minutes that I won't get back.

[Guest Kayla Grace]

That sounds like a possible result of a poorly done circumcision. A close friend of mine (non trans) has similar issues, in fact he has pain at times something thats bothered him since we were teens.

I don't think it's necessarily a poorly done circumcision as it is the sensitivity has been reduced due to time, the circumcision itself, or what it's been subjected to in terms of friction. Keratinization is all too possible, and sensitivity will be lost because the foreskin is there primarily to protect the sensitive glans, and lacerating it exposes the glans to literally everything it touches, ergo the glans will toughen up because it has no choice. This doesn't even take into account how tightly the circumcision was, or what it's exposed to on a day to day basis. For instance, the glans will have more keratinization if the owner goes commando in jeans or wears tight underwear, then if the owner wears boxers and keeps it as free to move as possible.

I've been post op circumcision - by choice (haha figures, I spend $900 on a piece of skin removal and now I want the whole thing gone), for a year and a half, and I already can't feel the thing in my pants constantly whereas I could straight after. I actually couldn't get it fully up because the frenelum would sting because it was too stretched. Now, I don't even know it's there unless it's touched.

circumcision damages or totally destroys that sensitivity factor.

I did have infant circumcision as a prophylactic procedure, thus I never experienced any of the life of an uncircumcised male. That would be the reason I never heard about the Frenum sensitivity.

Being on both sides of the fence, I can confirm that, for me at least, the frenelum serves no purpose besides as a fusing agent to the glans and foreskin. It was annoyingly sensitive to the touch, and if my urologist had listened to me when I requested it gone, I wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.

As for the sensitivity factor, like I said before, it depends on how it's taken care of post op, what is removed, and how much.

I'm really considering use Bowers for SRS since she has a few happy clients. That's a long way to fly for vaginoplasty. haha.

Sorry Kira, I kinda hijacked your thread. You did spark my curiousity about what happens to the frenelum during srs.

God Bless

Natalya <3

[Guest]

No problem Natalya. I just got confused because I've been circumcised since a baby and DO have frenulum sensitivity (or underside of glans/shaft - pretty sure that's the frenulum tmi, but that's thr orgasm spot - I can't imagine being able to get an orgasm just from the top of the glans. ) and everything that people have been saying here just kind of conflicts with what I've researched or experienced. So more confused than anything - and yesterday was in a lousy mood so that didn't help either.

Feel free to continue to hijack.

[Drea]

From what I have read, the pleasure centers in the penis vary by the individual so there isn't a one answer fits all.

As for me, it was never in the top of the glans as has been asserted. Now was that because I am odd or because I had nerve damage? I dunno.

My offhand guess is the structures you are concerned about effectively are lost. The nerves aren't necessarily at the skin but may be behind. The skin gets inverted. I haven't seen all surgeons techniques, but I have seen Bowers and the skin used internally, from wherever it is (mostly penis) ends up fully detached. That means there are no nerves in that skin.

In my opinion, those who are seriously in need of surgery will have it even if the possibility of orgasm afterwards is nil.

You also have to qualify the percent who are "orgasmic" and separate out those who are orgasmic in intercourse verses self stimulation. And when one includes "intercourse" it may be important to distinguish if it is penile penetration intercourse or some other sort.

As for sensitive and orgasm after intercourse.... my best description is to look at it this way. Consider that only the base of the penis is retained. A small portion of erectile tissue there is kept along with the sensitive bits. If you can orgasm from stimulation just there and not further up, you likely will be able to post SRS.

[Guest]

From what I have read, the pleasure centers in the penis vary by the individual so there isn't a one answer fits all.

As for me, it was never in the top of the glans as has been asserted. Now was that because I am odd or because I had nerve damage? I dunno.

My offhand guess is the structures you are concerned about effectively are lost. The nerves aren't necessarily at the skin but may be behind. The skin gets inverted. I haven't seen all surgeons techniques, but I have seen Bowers and the skin used internally, from wherever it is (mostly penis) ends up fully detached. That means there are no nerves in that skin.

In my opinion, those who are seriously in need of surgery will have it even if the possibility of orgasm afterwards is nil.

You also have to qualify the percent who are "orgasmic" and separate out those who are orgasmic in intercourse verses self stimulation. And when one includes "intercourse" it may be important to distinguish if it is penile penetration intercourse or some other sort.

As for sensitive and orgasm after intercourse.... my best description is to look at it this way. Consider that only the base of the penis is retained. A small portion of erectile tissue there is kept along with the sensitive bits. If you can orgasm from stimulation just there and not further up, you likely will be able to post SRS.

Drea could you clarify what you're saying a bit? On one hand it sounds like you're saykng they get rid of the sensitive tissue and on the other hand it sounds like they keep it.

As for me, I'm not saying I wouldn't get SRS even if that was the cost, but it is something that is a concern in trying to figure out exactly what the odds are.

[Guest DesiB]

Kira, I totally understand your question. I was circumcised as an infant (unfortunately, but that's another topic) and I still ended up with good sensation in my frenulum. Eventually, during a period when I knew I could not afford the surgery I wanted and had to wait several more years, I did get two frenulum piercings--sorta like the beginning of a ladder-type set. I wore a pink bar and a purple bar just to make it a little cute And it did intensify the good sensitivity for me.

I was more worried later about having perforations post-op!! My surgeon said it wouldn't be a problem beforehand. Then afterward I emailed my surgeon and her new PA repeatedly asking exactly where that skin ended up and wondering if that might have decreased my depth (since I started out with 1 1/2 honest inches longer than I ended up with in depth!), but they always avoided giving me a direct response. I even told them I just wanted to know if it was good to advise others not to get such piercings before getting GCS. I still don't know.

Anyway, the tip of the glans, which does get saved for the clitoris, has never been a source of pleasure for me either. It just feels sore when touched or aroused and makes me want to stop. I have always preferred all the other areas of sensation. So your question is not a bad one to ask at all.

[Drea]

Drea could you clarify what you're saying a bit? On one hand it sounds like you're saykng they get rid of the sensitive tissue and on the other hand it sounds like they keep it.

As for me, I'm not saying I wouldn't get SRS even if that was the cost, but it is something that is a concern in trying to figure out exactly what the odds are.

I was trying to say skin if it gets totally detached one isn't going to feel anything from nerves in that so it largely doesn't matter where used or not. With Bowers being on tv I remember seeing a clip of her during surgery and it looked like the entire skin lining the interior was completely detached and then grafted inside.

What I was also saying though is that the nerves for pleasure may not be in the skin itself but rather under the skin so then the question is rather where that tissue under the skin goes.

I remember long ago there was a surgeon in Germany who was using micro surgical techniques to extract the relevant nerves and re-plant them to the clitoral area. That was the only one I heard doing that.

I think there is an attempt, to move tissue without detaching it from the sensitive areas, but it is underneath the skin and transplant that into areas you want sensitive. But there is some loss of sensitivity and some trauma causing addition loss for a temporary period of time.

I do think that much of the tissue is just removed in the end. While the area isn't the most sensitive, the area, the area just above the base is sensitive and that is most likely preserved. At least I can speak to that the most.

I also note that certain skin was never detached, did remain sensitive to touch and was used in labia area. There are areas that used to be adjacent that are now a couple inches apart. Touch one area it feels like another. That sort of thing. I think that stuff has gone away but I noticed it wat first.

[Guest Jamiexo]

So, I am just as confused as you now Kira, because I feel as if the other girls do not make sense, and you make complete sense about where you sensate, I would say my frenulum is my most sensitive spot, and the further towards the tip you go the less and less sensation I have...

[VickySGV]

One of the weirdest parts of healing after SRS was in the first 8 to 11 months, and that was the development of sensation and "mapping" by your brain as to exactly where things were. For several weeks in the initial healing, you are very swollen in most cases and sensation can radiate so that touching a tiny area, say for when you are applying antibiotic gel on your suture lines, you will feel the fine line as a wide area. None of this is erotic, believe me, I have been there. In my initial dilations, I felt a very painful area that seemed to be on my RIGHT Labia Majora, and when it persisted for about two weeks, I had it checked by my Gynecologist when we thought it might be a condition called "granulation" which occurs regularly in post surgical people. The Gyno saw no reason for pain in the area I felt it, and since she had had me bring in my dilator of the day (the smallest) she told me to insert it and tell her when I felt the pain. Since dilators have a "depth gauge" on them, my Gyno was able to gauge where the tip had been when I felt the pain, and used a speculum to look inside my vagina, and found a very healthy looking suture line deep inside on the LEFT side, she also determined that I had a yeast infection that made everything sensitive in a very painful way. After a few days of mental gymnastics on my part, and probably about the time the sutures inside had dissolved, the pain became just a touch sensation of the type you get by pressing you finger on any body skin. Again, none was erotic at that point.

The surgical notes say that deep in the vagina, split thickness grafts are used and so the deeper part of the skin that has the nerves is used elsewhere as Drea has said above. Once the sutures had dissolved, the whole area did have the touch and pressure sensation. Using the dilator (at that point my largest) I was able to achieve a male type ejaculation by using the dilator on the underside of my prostate gland. It was a bit scary because I could not quite get whether it was ejaculation or I was losing bladder control, but the pelvic thrust sensation clued me in on the real result. This was at 7 weeks post.

For the next four months I had what many of my post op friends call "mini electric shocks" or "lightening strikes" that make you sit up very fast when they occur about every 4 to six hours apart. Time is approximate there, and each of my postie friends has it a little different, some but not all are having new sensations in their clitoral hood and clitoral tip areas at 3 to 4 months that are close to the old male sensitivity, but still different. Others like myself do not get it that soon but it starts happening. I was at 11 and a half months before my clitoris and the hood became pleasantly erotic to light stroking touch, but like a natal woman's experience, it is not enough to be the full source of an Orgasm as it used to be when it was a different structure.

NONE of what I am experiencing at 2 years has any relation to the "old equipment" or to the male way of getting aroused or even climactic. I have given up trying to compare the two experiences, because it does not work and the times I have tried it, I get pretty depressed when I could not connect the two. You do not get SRS to be boy in a girl looking way. Don't even try to go there, it is the way to post surgical regret. As said before, things do get disconnected, and nerves are not in the surface tissue that is most meddled with in the surgery. The surgeons do micro surgery that does preserve the deeper nerve bundles and speeds the slow recovery that may or may not use nerves you once had. You will be on a learning curve for many months post surgery to associate nerve sensation to its source and even maybe to decide its pleasant and satisfying. You demolish one neighborhood and build a new one.

It this is really confusing, that is how SRS really works, recovery is a painful confusing time, but the time passes and it becomes just you.

[Guest Kayla Grace]

So, I am just as confused as you now Kira, because I feel as if the other girls do not make sense, and you make complete sense about where you sensate, I would say my frenulum is my most sensitive spot, and the further towards the tip you go the less and less sensation I have...

That makes sense, it's because the frenelum is the most sensitive spot; equivalent to the clitoris or "G" spot on a female.

[lots of post op stuff]

Wow, this is beyond confusing. I guess I've never thought about the semantics of being post op. From what you describe, it would be a very long time before a post op could engage in sexual activity involving the vagina.

God Bless

Natalya <3

[Guest DesiB]

Using the dilator (at that point my largest) I was able to achieve a male type ejaculation by using the dilator on the underside of my prostate gland. It was a bit scary because I could not quite get whether it was ejaculation or I was losing bladder control, but the pelvic thrust sensation clued me in on the real result.

This idea that it was a "male type ejaculation" when the prostate/"G" spot was involved totally turned me off to the idea of even wanting to experiment with that part of my reconfigured anatomy. It was helpful that I would not have to access it in the manner of a homosexual male (no judgements intended--just a matter of personal identity). But if was was anatomy that was only there due to a male past, I still wanted no part of it. What changed my mind was a book recommended by my surgeon's office by Ladas, Whipple, & Perry called The G Spot: and other discoveries about human sexuality (1982). This book meant so much to me because it was not written for, by, or about transsexuals at all. Yet it clearly states that, "Every gland and organ in the male has its counterpart in the female, and vice versa." (p. 76) It also addresses the issue of mistaken sensations women have had causing them to think they may have been losing bladder control rather than actually having female ejaculations. I cannot recommend this book highly enough to those of you interested in this entire topic.

So, I am just as confused as you now Kira, because I feel as if the other girls do not make sense, and you make complete sense about where you sensate, I would say my frenulum is my most sensitive spot, and the further towards the tip you go the less and less sensation I have...

That makes sense, it's because the frenelum is the most sensitive spot; equivalent to the clitoris or "G" spot on a female.

The clitoris and the "G" spot are anatomically distinct--not even close to each other. I know this first hand, but also, see the book mentioned above.

[VickySGV]

[lots of post op stuff]

Wow, this is beyond confusing. I guess I've never thought about the semantics of being post op. From what you describe, it would be a very long time before a post op could engage in sexual activity involving the vagina.

My surgeon's instructions said I could have vaginal sex at six weeks with a human partner. (Until then it was my plastic boyfriends, Pete, Billy and Micky who are nine inches long and vary in circumference.) Other surgeons have their patients as far out as 6 months or more. (A Face Book friend was bragging that she and her BF did a New Year's countdown on her surgeon's time table at 4 months, and while OK, was sure not what she expected.) Never the less, some girls do jump the gun and end up with some pretty nasty hurting. There are those who jump the gun and have no problems, but it's quite an investment to risk and hurts badly if you guess wrong.

My point still being that NOTHING is the same afterwards, and expecting your male experience to be exactly mirrored as female is far from what really happens.

There is a whole new language for those who have SRS, especially for the first 18 months.

[Guest]

I can't speak for others, but I certainly wouldn't expect the same male experience. I feel like there's a stigma regarding asking questions about topics like this one - if have concerns about sensation then you can't possibly be trans enough for surgery, you're just looking for sexual kicks.

From my perspective, I think it's a valid concern to have, worrying that you might not have any sensation afterwards and trying to figure out exactly what are the odds afterwards. I know this current area us where most of my sensation is, so figuring out where the nerves go, if they're preseved at all seems a perfectly logical question to ask. Obviously things can always go wrong, but that's not really the question I was asking. If and when I get SRS, it would not be primarily for sexual reasons, but I certainly would want to know exactly what I was getting myself into in that regard to have the most realistic expectations - and the assumption that this somehow means I want keep male sexuality in a female body is kinda hurtful on a level.

[Guest Kayla Grace]

I certainly think it's a valid question as well Kira. Besides your surgeon, there's ho better to ask then an GRS post op.

Personally in my honest opinion (which I want to make it clear that my opinion is just that - my opinion) is I will not truly feel like a female and believe that I was born this way until I can strip down to the skin (forgive the graphic image) and look at myself in the mirror and see only female parts. I'm not going to even attempt to change my bone structure or internal organs because I don't care enough about those - I also doubt it's possibility, but I want to look as authentic and natal as possible. I personally find that with myself, there's no half glutes-ing it. I have sky high standards though, and my goals may not appeal to other transitioners.

My point still stands, GRS is as far as I know permanent, not to mention expensive. We should all know the rules and risks before we do anything as permanent and life changing. So I admire your curiousity.

God Bless

Natalya <3

[Guest DesiB]

I can't speak for others, but I certainly wouldn't expect the same male experience. I feel like there's a stigma regarding asking questions about topics like this one - if have concerns about sensation then you can't possibly be trans enough for surgery, you're just looking for sexual kicks.

From my perspective, I think it's a valid concern to have, worrying that you might not have any sensation afterwards and trying to figure out exactly what are the odds afterwards. I know this current area us where most of my sensation is, so figuring out where the nerves go, if they're preseved at all seems a perfectly logical question to ask. Obviously things can always go wrong, but that's not really the question I was asking. If and when I get SRS, it would not be primarily for sexual reasons, but I certainly would want to know exactly what I was getting myself into in that regard to have the most realistic expectations - and the assumption that this somehow means I want keep male sexuality in a female body is kinda hurtful on a level.

I think sometimes we get so wrapped up in living for others that we adopt their language and don't even know how to adequately speak of our own experiences. I know I grew up so afraid of being exposed that I created such a hyper-masculine persona so that no one would ever suspect the truth about me. If I had been interviewed about my innermost feelings many years ago, I could not have expressed them the same as I can now. But I have never been delusional--just pragmatic. I presented myself as I thought I needed to for survival in my world. But in the privacy of my own closed bedroom, even from my earliest days of self-pleasure, stroking an external object felt to me like inserting one into myself. I always knew how it should feel. I always thought of it that way even when I was with another woman. And now I don't need to speak falsely about my past inner feelings or even sensations. They were always female. There is nothing wrong with concern over wanting your female parts to be corrected by surgery and wonder if they will be damaged in the process. I really don't even like when people try to distinguish us from natal females for just that reason--I know I was born female (i.e. brain identified), just with some major birth defects. But it's hard to relearn how to talk about all this. So please don't be hurt when things get said that come across the wrong way. We can be our own worst enemies without even meaning to be, and we certainly don't need that.