Jump to content
  • Welcome to the TransPulse Forums!

    We offer a safe, inclusive community for transgender and gender non-conforming folks, as well as their loved ones, to find support and information.  Join today!

Journey to Jane Shannon


Janeshannon

Recommended Posts

  • Forum Moderator

Sounds like a good idea Jane, I concur having your wife with you and a neutral 3rd party to help facilitate the discussions. The grieving and bargaining phases can be ruff. I hope it goes well for you both, it's not easy, none of it....

 

Hugs

 

Cyndee -

Link to comment
  • Replies 111
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • Janeshannon

    46

  • Jani

    19

  • Cyndee

    13

  • Susan R

    9

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

On 3/19/2019 at 8:35 AM, Kole Rickard said:

I am impressed about how long you decided to wait. 

 

Kole,

Thank you so much for the thoughtful response, and I apologize for the slow reply to your post.  You mentioned how I am approaching transition at a slow pace. My counselor and I spoke quite a bit about the pace of transition.  She had some really good thoughts about it. There is a lot about being transgender that is out of my control. I didn’t choose to be trans, and while I am choosing to transition, moving towards transition is really moving towards self-acceptance and happiness.  I cannot control what other people, including my family, think about me transitioning. One thing I can control is the pace of my transition. I sometimes think of transition as a train ride. I didn’t choose to get on this train, but I now control the pace and I can choose when to get off the train.  As I consider the possible end points of transition, I fear moving too fast. If I am going too fast I might not have time to reflect and consider how I feel both mentally and physically. As I stated above, I am transitioning to a happier more fulfilling me. I don’t want to zoom past myself on the way to find myself.  

So, am I going slow?

No, I am going at the right pace for me. ?

Link to comment

Ah, I'm sorry if that offended you. I didn't mean you're going slowly, I meant you're going at a very nice pace for this. It should always be slower. I know many people who want it done here and now. I'm just trying to mention that you're going at a more nice and smooth pace and I admire that a lot. You waited for the right time. That just decided to be later in life! I hope I put that in a more understandable way.

Link to comment

Kole, you in no way offended me. You did make me think and reflect, and I appreciate that.  

Take Care,

JS

 

Link to comment
  • 2 weeks later...

Two interesting things to report this week.  First, I read the book “She’s Not There: A Life in Two Genders,” by Jennifer Finney Boylan.  It was wonderful.  At times I really felt like she was describing my own situation.  She is a generally an optimistic person, as am I.  It sounds like she never felt that overwhelming sense of gender dysphoria, which is how I feel.  She just always felt the nagging, unending feeling of not being right.  Personally, I have always wondered when these feeling would go away.  When I would feel fulfilled by male life.  I have been waiting 45 years and it hasn’t arrived yet.  In the book, she always talks extensively about how her wife felt about her transition.  Her wife, Grace, really struggled.  She, Grace, was never angry at Jenny, but she definitely felt like she got the short end of the stick. However, their love affair has not ended, just changed.  Overall, I would recommend this book.  Especially, to MtF folks transitioning later, and doubly if they are starting transition from a heteronormative relationship.  The second thing this week is HUGE how small it is.  I realized my self-talk has shifted.  It shift from “if” to “when.”  So, if I transition has become when I transition.  I didn’t even realize it, and it really makes me think. I am excited to start HRT in early May.

Link to comment

 

I have had a good week.

Monday was my normal counseling appointment, which leaves me feeling good and that this trans thing is okay.

Thursday, I had the day off work for a dermatology appointment. I decided to wear a black skirt with a red cowl neck sweater to the appointment. The appointment is a yearly appointment, and my legal name is still my male name. The clinic was AWESOME! The lady at the counter didn't bat an eye even when I handed her an ID with a male name and photo on it. The med tech looked a little surprised, but recovered quickly and was kind. I had to get undressed, and I loved when she said I'd have to take off my bra for the exam. The PA who did the exam was awesome. She checked my skin including peeking under my panties. Since I was only wearing a gaff and a medical robe, she knew I was early transition transgender. I was tightly tucked, and she made no reaction she was just doing another exam. I was nervous going in, but relaxed departing.

 

After the appointment, I had a bunch of errands to run. I did all if them in that skirt. It was absolutely wonderful to be interacting with society as a woman. I've questioned this for so long. Doubting if I was really transgender. More and more I know the truth.  Another interesting highlight was a short stop at a cobbler’s shop. I was stalling going in, sitting in my truck, looking at the shop and wondering about all the horrible things that could happen. When I noticed, in the upper left corner of the shop window was the rainbow flag.  That little chunk of clothe, such a small symbol, and it totally lifted my spirits. The cobbler was super sweet, and told me he could fix my shoes for $20, or I could fix them for free with some super glue. After that I headed to the library and a few other stops. It was really a nice day--it felt wonderful not to doubt or to worry so much--to just be.

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

Great Jane!  Sounds like good week all around.  Good for you. 

 

Jani

Link to comment

The double life sucks. I was authentic for counseling, fake for work, I changed and went to Costco as me, and then changed again and now I'm here lying to my kids. They see a man who loves them. The love is so real.  The man is a fake...

Link to comment

Every day so far this week coming to work in male clothes has been tough. I feel like a phony, my students thinking they have a male teacher. They have a fake. More and more all the maleness feels like the lie...

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

Hi Jane, what you are posting about hold true for many of us MTF. It becomes harder and harder to return to the previous life, once you've gone out as yourself and are presenting that way at least part time, because the highs are fantastic, but the return from that can be rough. I know the feeling you describe well feeling like you are lying to others, it really is troublesome, when you reach this difficult stage. Go home and take a nice scented bath and soak in the tub to sooth your body and soul. I am thinking of you in your classroom this morning and wishing you strength and sanity, it's hard.

 

Hugs

 

Cyndee

Link to comment

I had a good morning.  I have really started to enjoy being more out and about as a woman.  This morning I decided I need some girl-time.  I had just bought a new skirt, it is bright blue with flowers knitted on it.  I love the way it swishes and flows as I move.  It was surprising when the wind blew and chilled my legs...  I wore a simple black woven top and tan sandals.  It was nice to be in spring clothing.  

After the dysphoria all week, I was I a bundle of nerves heading out, so I stopped at my favorite Starbucks and got a cup of coffee.  It is nice having a good place to go to help break the nervousness.  @Cyndee, thank you for the push to make them a first stop!  I then headed to the local Eddie Bauer Outlet.   Overall it was a great experience.  I was approached by two clerks, and they were both helpful and kind.  I think I was clocked by a cute 3 year old girl.  ?  She looked at me with some surprise, but I think she was really too busy convincing her mommy to buy a black sweeter so they could be twins.  I tried on a few tops and some pants.  As I looked in the mirror, I felt that dread of "I will never pass," so I stopped put things back and headed home.  Overall, I would go back to Eddie Bauer and I will definitely be going out in this new skirt again!

 

Some nice firsts!  Clothing shopping as a woman.  Trying on clothes in the store.  Openly getting clocked.  

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

This is good that you got out.  After the coffee, you were set for shopping.  Never say never about your looks.  Jane is looking back from the mirror at you.  If you don't already see her, you will soon enough.  You'll see her I promise.

 

On 4/27/2019 at 5:06 PM, Janeshannon said:

Some nice firsts!  Clothing shopping as a woman.  Trying on clothes in the store.  Openly getting clocked. 

You've hit the trifecta!

 

Cheers, Jani

Link to comment

 

It was a very interesting day today.  Started out with getting my new breast forms.  The forms are a nice high quality set. To make sure they fit right I had to get fitted.  The fitting was a wonderful experience. It was at a bra shop, and the ladies were SO nice.  I was a little uncomfortable at first, but I soon relaxed. They knew I was trans, so taking the different bras and forms on and off wasn’t a huge deal.  I also got two new bras to go with the forms. I was surprised I went for a smaller size then I first expected. I went for something that looked natural and comfortable.  The best part is they were provided with my VA benefits.

 

A few weeks ago I had contacted my Union President asking how transitioning could impact my employment.  In his response he said he would help introduce me to another transwoman who transitioned on the job a few years ago.  One strange aspect to being transgendered is that I really don’t know any transpeople. Now I do! We sat and chatted for about an hour.  She has completed her physical transition. Now that she is comfortable with her body, she is becoming much more comfortable socially. It is interesting, between meeting her and reading tons about being trans I am starting to think more and more that, we while we might finish transitioning, we never stop becoming.  Also, that we need more transpeople that don’t just disappear into society, but that come back and to help and advocate for other transpeoples.

Link to comment

congrats..J..Your right...Beside my therapist the only other trans woman are adult movie actress and their view of Transgender life is much different. Thanks for sharing

Link to comment
  • 3 weeks later...

 

For methe biggest struggle with coming to grips with being trans has been deconflicting my feelings as a husband and a father.  I love my family. I love being married to my wife. I love the children we have together. I think our children are a manifestation of our love.  Being a “good husband” and a “good father” have defined me for the past 16 and 11 years respectively. The question I wrestle with is “how can I really be a woman, when I love being a husband and a father?”

What I am starting to realize is that while I cannot be a woman and a husband and a father, I can be a woman and an amazing spouse and parent.  I think some of my feeling about my roles are based in older cultural norms. I recently had an amazing day going shooting with my older son. As I drove home a wave of dysphoria struck me.  Would days like this be ruined if I went as a woman? Would he and I be accepted in this traditionally male activity?

I am increasingly convinced that the answer to all these questions is that me being a woman wouldn’t matter.  While we would be treated differently, I don’t think that treatment would impact our parent-child enjoyment.

I know this intellectually. Now I just need to convince myself emotionally too.

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

I can understand.  I think the trick is to transition to being a good partner and parent as you transition to the new you.  You are correct that all the things you do now would not matter, unless you let them.  Don't!  I still "play with cars" and I recently spent two plus weeks designing and remodeling a friends bathroom with them.   This was my oldest friend (of 48 years) and while I am definitely female it was like old times when we worked together, just two people that enjoy each others company having fun.  His wife was away with their daughter and I later joked to her that he wined and dined me every evening (he's a great cook), and we even out for ice cream for dessert one night!   

 

You're on the right track.  The people that love you will not miss a beat and your relationships should be fine.  

 

All my best! 
Jani

Link to comment
  • 1 month later...

 

What a day!  I came out to my in-laws on Jun 20, 2019.  I will admit to no small amount of anxiety when we started.  I rationally knew they would be very accepting, but that didn’t help ease my tummy.  When I started going to counseling about six months ago, I told them I was seeing a counselor.  So I started with telling them I wanted to share why I was going to counseling. I said, in a very calm and straightforward manner, “I am seeing a counselor because I am transgender.”  Both of them have a pretty good poker face, so it was hard to read them. My father-in-law started first by saying he is supportive, but he was unsure what he could do to actually be supportive.  Then my mother-in-law chimed with her support also, and said she recommends joining them at their church. There are several trans-folks in their congregation, so she knows it is a good place to find acceptance as a coming out transwoman.  I told them all the answers to the really big questions are “I don’t know.” We, my wife and I, did tell the steps taken so far. Including laser hair removal and this is the reason for the long hair and earrings. I offered the only reassurance I can give in this.  I told them their daughter is my very best friend, and that I love her with my whole heart. She offered that she doesn’t want to split up our marriage, but the future uncertainty is challenging for her. My favorite part was one of the last questions my father-in-law had.  He asked if we were still going to go to the car show downtown this weekend. It was a nice way to say, this is okay and let’s continue living our lives and being a family. Coming out is so very hard, but so worth it as you come out to the right people.

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

It sounds as if you could not have found a more receptive accepting reaction.  Our relationships so often change with transition.  Finding the security of continuity makes the process easier.  Your father in law has already found a good way to br supportive!

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

Link to comment

@Janeshannon Congratulations! I am sooo happy for you! 

9 hours ago, Janeshannon said:

My favorite part was one of the last questions my father-in-law had.  He asked if we were still going to go to the car show downtown this weekend.

I loooove this!!! ^^^ This quote is simply the best. The innocence of it all. I love it when Reality turns out much better that what was bouncing around in our thoughts. I am finding out the same, but I still havent told everyone yet. Quotes like this make me feel better.

 

 

My friend is a single Mom, and takes on the role as Mommy and Daddy when I am not there. As do most single moms (and Dads) will take on the role when raising their children. 

My friend doesnt try to act more masculine, she just acts like any Parent would with their children. Im divorced, and my ex and I never really tried to change anything the way we raised our kids if one of us wasnt present. 

My friends kids call me "Daddy" and I will never tell them to stop calling me daddy, cause it was out of love. Plus they already have a wonderful Mommy, and wouldnt ever want to share that title with her, ever. I know who I am, and I know what is in their hearts. If someday, when they know I have transitioned, and want to use a feminine name, then we will discuss it. But for now, I am happy with the way my Journey is headed. I still have a bit to go, and until then, I will try and be happy with every baby step possible. 

 

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator
9 hours ago, Janeshannon said:

 I rationally knew they would be very accepting, but that didn’t help ease my tummy. 

This was a big and very difficult step, Jane Shannon...especially with the protective nature inlaws have for their child.  I was lucky in some regard as my wife's parents have been gone for years.  I'm not sure they would have been so accepting.  I can understand your initial apprehension but as Charlize mentioned it looks like they took the news very well.

 

9 hours ago, Janeshannon said:

My favorite part was one of the last questions my father-in-law had.  He asked if we were still going to go to the car show downtown this weekend. It was a nice way to say, this is okay and let’s continue living our lives and being a family.

I've heard about this happening in several 'coming out' stories.  It sort of normalizes the discussion and future  relationship and minimizes the possible 'elephant in the room' effect that can occur in these types of situations.

 

I'm very happy for you Jane Shannon.  Best if luck to both you and your wife in this stage of your journey.

 

Susan R?

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

Jane you are in a very special family.  I remember when I told my oldest friend (since I was 17) and he asked if I was still going to like chainsaws.  We hadn't done that kind of work for decades but I understood.  It was his way of saying its OK and I still love you.  Life does go on and you find you are still the person you're always been inside, just with a different "wrapper".  

 

Coming out is difficult but this was a relief for you as it was with special people in your and your wife's life.  Wonderful.   

 

Cheers, Jani

 

Link to comment

Going into the Closet to Come Out of the Closet

Well I was attempting to keep all this a big secret I worked extremely hard to hide the clothing. I had stuff squirreled all over my house and hidden in spots at work. As I have been working to reveal myself to my wife I have slowly been bringing out my clothes. Yesterday was the last of it. I was hanging up a few things when I stopped at a dress I have with mesh sleeves. I wasn’t sure if hanging it would damage the sleeves, so I folded it neatly.  When I came back a few minutes later it was hanging. This led to a discussion about hanging clothes. Which in turn led to hanging up my remaining skirts and dresses. As I exited the closet I realized that spending  time in the closet was an important step in finally and fully coming out of the closet.

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

They are simply your clothes. It's a wonderful feeling to put them in your own closet and hang them up just like any other woman would. Now comes the hardest part, picking and choosing what to wear today :)

 

Happy to read your post this morning Jane and catch up. 

 

Congrats on coming out to the in laws. 

 

May things continue to progress well at home. 

 

Cynthia -

Link to comment
  • Forum Moderator

I share a closet with my wife.  Just lovely to have something other than jeans, T shirt and a suit for burial!

 

Hugs,

 

Charlize

Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Who's Online   1 Member, 0 Anonymous, 131 Guests (See full list)

    • MomTGDaughter
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Forum Statistics

    • Total Topics
      80.5k
    • Total Posts
      766.5k
  • Member Statistics

    • Total Members
      11,912
    • Most Online
      8,356

    DeniseKell
    Newest Member
    DeniseKell
    Joined
  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Beth Susan
      Beth Susan
      (53 years old)
    2. Bree138
      Bree138
      (44 years old)
    3. Catamondium
      Catamondium
    4. cody
      cody
      (17 years old)
    5. kass
      kass
  • Posts

    • Carolyn Marie
      https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2024/03/273fdffe00c0-japan-society-on-transgender-issues-to-drop-disorder-from-name.html     Carolyn Marie
    • Carolyn Marie
      https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/mar/18/science-knowledge-gap-trans-healthcare     I like the reference to "trans broken arm syndrome."  I've experienced it myself.  The more research, the better, certainly.  The problem as I see it, especially concerning reports in the popular press, is that preliminary results are often used to "prove" someones POV, or are misunderstood or used in a political way.  That is never helpful, and it isn't confined to reporting on trans health care issues.  For example, how many times have we read or heard about studies that "prove" coffee is bad, or chocolate is bad, or eggs are bad, etc., only to read weeks or months later that the opposite is true?  In the case of trans health care, it all gets politicized, too.   Carolyn Marie
    • Cisco1127
      I just finished the intake forms for an online informed consent clinic through Plume and im both nervous and excited to meet with my provider next week via video chat. I'm worried I will be turned down and cannot get a prescription for a variety of reasons. I was asked so many invasive questions during intake, which I knew would happen. I worried about what I should leave out, how honest I should be, what could be something that would deny me a prescription. I've been fighting with myself for a long time and now that I have opened myself up to hoping for change, I am so scared of having the carrot dangled in my face only to be ripped away.    And a part of me is scared of starting testosterone. I'm even more scared of inaction. Of not at least trying it and seeing how I feel about the changes. If I don't try it, I will never know, and I will be stuck in the loop of questioning whether or not it is right for me until I am filled with regrets for chances not taken rather than opportunities I've pursued.     Has anyone here ever felt fear and apprehension about staring HRT? How did you get over that fear? How do I know in my heart if this is right for me when I am always running through all of the endless possibilities of good and bad results?     
    • Carolyn Marie
      In keeping with @VickySGV's train of thought, here are links to a couple of Canadian legal resources.  I hope these can help you, as you do seem to need it.   https://justicetrans.org/en/resources/   https://www.courthouselibrary.ca/how-we-can-help/our-library-services/lawmatters-public-libraries/lgbt-legal-resource-round   https://www.halco.org/our-services/trans-legal-needs-assessment-ontario   BTW, welcome to Transgender Pulse, hon.  You are safe here.   Carolyn Marie
    • awkward-yet-sweet
      An option?  Sure.  When you come right down to it, everything except food/water/shelter is optional.  Life can be very basic....brutally basic.  Life can even be so bad that one's gender issues or sexuality are the farthest thought from your mind, at least for a while.  You can "play pretend" successfully for years or a lifetime, with nobody suspecting that your true self is different from the gender you were assigned at birth.  All kinds of choices, and its up to each person to decide which choices are more comfortable and less destructive to self and others.     From what I have learned, transition is a spectrum.  There's no one single way to do it, and your way may look very different from how a friend does it.  Some people go to great lengths with surgery.  Others are like me an my friends, non-op by choice or other circumstances.  You can do a whole bunch of stuff in a short time, or the process can take years.  I don't see it as a black-or-white kind of choice, but a progression towards authenticity and comfort.
    • Sally Stone
      I buy online occasionally, but I'd much rather try something on in the store to know if it fits or how it looks.  I'm not sure this is actually "shopping across the aisle" since I often shop for women's clothes dressed as a woman (but not always).  That said, I have had great success finding amazing deals on the discount racks at department stores.  I never buy anything at retail in fact, I usually only purchase when an item is seriously discounted.  Macy's, Nordstrom's, and Dillards clothes are extremely pricey, but you can find some amazing deals on the sales racks.  In Macy's last year, I bought a $300 dollar gown for $45 and just last week I found a really pretty and very feminine sweater on the Macy's rack for $16.99.  The original tag price was $89.00.  My experience is that department stores tend to sell higher quality clothing, which means you can find some great stuff when you shop their sales racks.   I have found some great things at Goodwill myself.  And in the interest of full-disclosure, I have given a lot new or nearly new women's items to Goodwill as well.
    • EasyE
      Discovered this recently as well... you have to be more of a hunter because it isn't always obvious what the sizes are... at least the store near me organizes fairly well by color and such ... found a nice pair of khakis and a nice white skort, though also found a few shirts that when I got home, yikes, way too tight... 
    • awkward-yet-sweet
      Wow.  To borrow things and break them... that's what we call a "USDA A-Grade Crap Filet."  Most mechanics hate it when others borrow their tools...or even touch them.  And that's with permission.  Without permission?  My GF would probably put somebody in the hospital for that.    And definitely, if they gotta borrow something multiple times...better be buying their own when that paycheck shows up.  At least get the Harbor Freight version.  Most of their stuff ain't that bad. 
    • awkward-yet-sweet
      You might not think of it, but Goodwill has a TON of stuff.  I guess a lot of women buy clothes, hardly wear them, and then give them away when they get bored.  I've seen name brand stuff there for $3 or so.  You can always take a look...looking is free.  One of my friends is good with a sewing machine, and she gets stuff that's a bit bigger, then adjusts the fit.  Easier to subtract fabric than add 😄   I shop across the aisle, but for boy things.  And believe it or not, its actually more difficult if you're looking for something super cheap.  Thrift stores...most of the stuff for boys is worn out.  And being small, its super tough to find things in my size.  Even shorts, jeans, and t-shirts... good luck finding them in size "tiny fox."  Everything is made for Big and Tall.  6ft plus, built like a brick outhouse....Manly!  My husband complains since he's not 6ft tall, and if he has a tough time finding clothes that fit, its practically impossible for me. 
    • Mmindy
      When I worked as a mechanic in a truck shop. The standard saying was: If you have to borrow a tool more than three times, you need to buy one of your own.    Blue collar hands,   Mindy🌈🐛🏳️‍⚧️🦋
    • Adrianna Danielle
      Finally found out boss did fire a co worker I hated.A mechanic and I was one of 3 mechanics fixing his screw ups.Plus he would go into other other mechanic's toolboxes taking off with tools without asking.One was mine,one was a diesel compression tester kit of mine and broke the gauge part which I will have my Snap On dealer order me a new gauge tommorrow when he comes in
    • VickySGV
      Find and get in touch with the closest LGBTQ center near you and (1) they will know of programs that employ Trans people willingly and (2) will have ways to get you competent legal help to break you free of your family and their controlling and damaging behavior toward you.  I do not know Canadian Law on this, but here where I am you could get a court order to stop them from interfering in your life.  Gender Dysphoria is not a mental health issue that should keep you from managing your personal affairs.  The people at those centers know what we go through and are ready to help you.
    • Ashley0616
      You look great in all of them!
    • Mirrabooka
      I'll try!     I still have no desire at all to start wearing skirts and dresses, and I don't have the curves to justify wearing women's jeans or slacks. I think the furthest I will go is maybe some pretty and androgynous tops one day. That's what appealed to me with the hoodie - it just looked so much nicer than any of those on offer from the men's department.
    • shelli
      Hello.   My name is not Shelli but for my safety i have to use this name here.   Im looking for advice.   In canada conversion therapy is illegal. My family has employed a psiciatrist to comversion therapy me covertly. I am 45 and the administrator of a wealthy families estate.   I have been fleeing this for about 7 years. It began by me having mtf grs. I was supposed to have ffs and top and vocal aswell. They allowed the bottom surgery. Then began getting social workers, the psyc and an accountant to slander me from town to town as i tried to get work and stablity in my life. I eventually went back to male atire to try and hide and restart transition. Each time they wojld find out where i was and it would start again.   I spoke out about it and now they claim i destroyed there lives by seeking help and that im an adult child since i cant get a job while they do this so that i cant as i would take control of the families fortune. They have had this psyciatrist diagnose me falsly with scizophrenia, upsetting me then bipolat, borderline, psicotic, and so much more. They have even tried getting me framed for crimes i never commited.   Im terrified, living in the woods, off hormones and even when i turn to the lgbt community in my area they have convinced many of them that im a trans man etc etc etc.   It never ends.   I would like to hear any advice.
  • Upcoming Events

Contact TransPulse

TransPulse can be contacted in the following ways:

Email: Click Here.

To report an error on this page.

Legal

Your use of this site is subject to the following rules and policies, whether you have read them or not.

Terms of Use
Privacy Policy
DMCA Policy
Community Rules

Hosting

Upstream hosting for TransPulse provided by QnEZ.

Sponsorship

Special consideration for TransPulse is kindly provided by The Breast Form Store.
×
×
  • Create New...