Ex-trans?

[Guest gentleman1]

I was reading a response I received to one of my criticisms to a very conservative Christian lady's blog. She describes herself as a "Bible reading grandmother" from some site called WNC or something. I'd have to re-check the site to get the right name, but they tout "Focus on the Family" and such nonsense. Her article was titled along the lines of "Sex Change Charade" and quoted sources against transition such as Dr. Paul McHugh formerly of Johns Hopkins and the study they had done on Transexualism. I responded to her by letting her know the study was flawed and used myself as an example without going into detail in my life. Anyway, she surprised me by 1) responding, 2) not being nasty. (I wasn't nasty either). She was very kind. She DID mention however, that she got her information also from other "former" trans both pre-op AND POST-OP, who "saw the light" of "God's WAYS" and that they now realized that God had plans for them in their "original" gender and saw through the "lies" of transitioning, etc. Keep in mind that she was kind and I respect her reply to me, even though, our views are still sharply at odds. Her name is Ellen Makkai, I believe, I'd have to go back to the site to get it right for sure. Anyone ever hear of her, or of these "former Transexuals? I'd like to do more research on this particularly those who are post-op re-transitioned especially because this concerns Christianity and this was their motive for de-transitioning. Thanks - Shawn

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Hi Shawn,

Did she mention who the person was that saw the "light"? Did she also mention which denomination this person was from?

I am just curious

Brenda

[Sally]

There are any number of re-trans as I like to call them, almost all use religion as the reason for wanting to transition back to their original gender.

I have a problem with that because I do not believe that God corrects a mistake by making the same mistake again and if transitioning is a sin then doing it twice is just another sin.

I believe that these are all people who transitioned believing that their lives sould be perfect after transitioning but they turned out to be just the same or being so disappointed actually a little worse so they talk to someone in their church who tells them that they are being punished for leaving the path that God had set for them and the only way is to go back - they will follow anywhere at this point.

So now they are accepted by their church and asked to speak to large groups and they are positive that it is all because now they are doing God's work.

If I seem skeptical it is because I am, God works in mysterious ways but I don't think that devious is one of them.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest skyy]

i've never really heard of these ex-trans people before. they must be some very confused people indeed, with religion pushing them into doing stuff. i doubt it really works though, and if it does, then they are hardly true trans, they have got to be something in the middle. strange idea, never heard of someone going back on something this serious before.

as for ex-gays, i have heard of them. they seem much more likely. a lot of them are probibly bi, but just give up the gay part. the rest just go against nature to live the heterosexual lifestyle. they wont ever truely be happy in it, but then again, a lot of straights hate the marriage they are in, so the ex-gays will probably blame it on that. but the way i see it, sexuality is part choice, part nature. the nature is what you naturally like, and the choice is what you actually do. Deeedoo and i have a friend who is gay that chooses the live a straight life becuase of his religion, he says gay is what you do. its sad to see, but i guess thats his life, and we cant live it for him.

but this ex-trans thing seems really dangerous, much more so than ex-gay. this is a core personallity issue, not a sexual/romantic one. they could very easily send these people into a suicidal state if the religious brainwashing wears off. i hope this is not the case; i've watched too many lives be ruined by these good intentions gone horribly wrong, the best thing to do is make the world more aware of what transgender is. i'm trying to do my part in the small town of knoxville, but i guess this is a team effort. maybe one day we can be past this nonsense (notices self on soapbox, and sheepishly gets off).

the ex-gay thing is just silly, so is trying to explain its not a choice. my thing is so what if its a choice or not, what make my choice less valid than a straight person's. to think i'm any less for my choice is a heterosupremacist idea. this is what needs to be fought, not this choice nonsense. and being ex-gay is a person's choice to make and no one elses. given, i think its stupid if you are at least partially gay, but it isnt my choice to make. again, live and let live.....someone needs to get me away from this soapbox before i start a LGBT equivalent black panther rally. it shall be called, the pink panthers.

[Guest Jean Davis]

Hi Shawn

All I know is if someone tells a lie often and loud enough most people will recieve it as the truth (politcians do this alot )

Follow your Heart

And ask her next time why God gave us the means to correct this if he didn't want us to change and be happy.

LUV

Jean Davis

[Guest Pól]

Skyy, you have this amazing way of phrasing arguments succinctly.

this is a core personallity issue, not a sexual/romantic one.

well said.

Maybe you should be spending more time on the soapbox. I bet people would listen to you.

[Sally]

again, live and let live.....someone needs to get me away from this soapbox before i start a LGBT equivalent black panther rally. it shall be called, the pink panthers.

Oh, please stay on the soapbox.

I wanted this to become a pink panther rally, I already had the theme music cued!

We sort of sneak in!

You are so right no one gets the difference between choice and just being, as a child you may choose to become a doctor but you never have to choose to become an adult - that just happens (some of us never act like one but that is a gain a choice.)

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Donna Jean]

It seems that lots of people speak with God on many levels...not just straight folks...

So many of us have been miserable for years because we couldn't accept how God had made us...

And if you are Trans, well, God made it so.

A trans person transitions to find happiness and if they find it to be a mistake they may transition back...But these people are hopefully weeded out by the SOC and therapy...

Look at the stats....after transition suicide rates among us go way down..we're finally where we need to be.

There are Boot camps that are run by religious groups that "Straighten out" gays...

They believe that being Gay or Trans is a lifestyle choice. It is NOT!

There are good intentioned people that would like to save you from yourself...

There are also good intentioned people that still think that the earth is flat!

Huggs

Donna Jean

[Guest AllisonD]

It seems that lots of people speak with God on many levels...not just straight folks...

So many of us have been miserable for years because we couldn't accept how God had made us...

And if you are Trans, well, God made it so.

A trans person transitions to find happiness and if they find it to be a mistake they may transition back...But these people are hopefully weeded out by the SOC and therapy...

Look at the stats....after transition suicide rates among us go way down..we're finally where we need to be.

There are Boot camps that are run by religious groups that "Straighten out" gays...

They believe that being Gay or Trans is a lifestyle choice. It is NOT!

There are good intentioned people that would like to save you from yourself...

There are also good intentioned people that still think that the earth is flat!

Huggs

Donna Jean

DJ

I have to wonder if the 'good intentioned' are not so much trying to save a person from herself, but instead are trying to make her into what they think she should be. It is clear to me that one motivation for some self-proclaimed religious people is to get other people to think exactly as they do. It validates their own position in their own minds. I find it curious that often the position they argue is counter to explicit tenets of their own religion. I found a similar parallel in the racial discrimination I saw in North Carolina when I moved there from Germany. Some people went to considerable effort to convince others 'similar' to themselves that 'those other people' were beneath them. Success = confirmation that they, themselves, were actually 'better' than those others.

Save a person from living her life (trans, gay, whatever) as her heart dictates? That isn't saving, that is death.

Allison

[Sally]

There are good intentioned people that would like to save you from yourself...

There are also good intentioned people that still think that the earth is flat!

Ther is an old saying that goes, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

I tsimply means that we don't always know what is best and we often do the wrong things - like not going to war because it is wrong to fight while millions of people die because we weren't there (WWII was when this was used a lot) - not entering the war a good intention with horrible results while we waited most of Europe was over run bythe Blitzgreg and it wouldn't have been much longer before England fell, the numbers and the resources were against them, Germany was drwing on the resources of all of the countries that they now controled - and even earlier Prime Minister Neville Chamberlin tried to appease Hitler rather than start an armed conflict when he first took over Poland - another good intention that delayed the begin of the global war and allowed Germany to get stronger and strengthen its ties with the Axis Powers (Italy and Japan).

Enough history for now, just know that a good intention is not necessarily a good idea.

Love ya

Sally

[Guest nova]

I don't trust one word that comes from the John Hopkins--McHugh--Jon Meyer camp. All their malarkey (spell?) that SRS does not "work" has been debunked by sound science and by the existence of all the happily transitioned people all over the world. Iv'e heard of one story about a person who was unhappy with her surgical results and tried to sue the clinic who diagnosed her, but she later admitted she lied to her therapist. But for all we know, this could have been a desperate person who was trying to get her medical bills paid this way, or she simply faked her way through her therapy by hiding facts that would have prevented the diagnosis, we don't know. As for Paul McHugh, this is a man who has had a lifelong vendetta against transwomen especially. I call him cardinal McHugh because he was the vatican's advisor on transsexualism and he rushed to the side of the vatican to defend the epidemic of pedophile priests by saying that the recovered memories of the victims were false. McHugh is a hired gun, and anything he has to disagree with he calls a "craze". He called transsexualism a craze, and of repressed memory he declared it a "myth"; a "craze that has contributed to this [accusations of priestly child molestation] injustice." . . . "to treat for repressed memories is malpractice, pure and simple." McHugh gives lectures on his "pure and simple" conclusions at religious retreats and he sounds just like a priest in a pulpit delivering a solemn sermon with his bombastic speech patterns echoing in a cavernous cathedral. Powerful stuff for catholics who are accustomed to the pomp and ritual of catholic mass. This man's obsession with persecuting transsexualism is mysterious. This man, I believe, is hiding some deep dark secrets and I hope some day it all comes out to the light of day. McHugh has got himself in more hot water, this time with the abortion issue. McHugh is being accused of providing a lot of misinformation (about the abortion doctor-and his clinic-who was recently murdered) to Bill O'Reily (spell?) which instigated his hate mongering rants and raves against the doctor, which then led to murder. Any stories or people themselves who claim to be "changed back" should be regarded with suspicion.

Nova

[gennee]

Sally brings up a great point that those who transitioned were expecting it to complete their life but didn't. Erroneously, many folks think all transsexuals have the surgery but that simply isn't the case. I don't know of any ex-trans groups. If there are I imagine that they have done the same amount of damage that ex-gay groups have done.

Gennee

[Guest Evan_J]

as a child you may choose to become a doctor but you never have to choose to become an adult

so perfectly worded.

I think that NEITHER being gay nor being trans is a choice. There was a time (lest we forget, cuz it feels like only yesterday....) that being gay and not being afforded the right to just "be" it was the source/ cause of many a person turning to alchohol, for some folks drugs, falling into severe episodes of depression, and even being suicidal. As trans people we should be careful not to minimize the actualities of the history of being gay in an effort to drive home the seriousness of being trans. Gay people have "seen the light" many times only out of continual emotional and mental assailing. These people are still gay. They just are not admitting to and honoring that fact. As long as they are willing to either be alone or force themselves to participate in sex relationships not satisfying or desired independent their assailers they are "doing what is good" and trotted out as "cured" and " saved". Unfortunately, this is also often all that's happening with the "ex-trans" . Not only are trans people subjected to the "evils of rejecting your birth sex" speach they might be also blasted with the assertions that "this is all 'part' of homosexuality and its sin", confusing, lying to , and misleading the person about what they even are.

If I verbally abuse you to the point that I emotionally strip you of your ability to understand or define yourself to me and then TELL you what you are and are not exactly how much is your "testimony" worth?

[Sally]

I would like to quote a surprising source that really relates so well to our issues.

First the quote, "Nothing is real if you don't believe in yourself."

That just has to ring in our ears, what meaning can we find in life if we don't believe in ourselves and how can we believe in ourselves if we don't admit who we are.

The source of the deep thought - Rocky Balboa in Rocky III while questioning what his title meant since Mic (BUrgess Mersdith) had lined up contenders who were past their prime or not great fighters to protect him while training to regain his title from Clubber Lang (Mr. T).

It isn't really so strange that Sylvester Stallone would have feelings similar to ours - he was an outcast in high school for his dropping eyes and lip and somewhat slurred speech - make a hit movie and all of that changes but he never forgot being the outcast - once asked what he did about people wanting to get handouts and ride on his popularity his responce was, "I told my staff if anyone calls and said they were a friend of mine from high school, hang up - they're lying, I didn't have any."

We are not alone in being outcast but that doesn't make it any easier and people lie this are hurting our cause by blocking any further education about the true nature and causes of being Gay or Trans.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest S. Chrissie]

There are transpeople that regretted transition, even at post-ops stage. The only possible reason I could think of is that they did not do their research, they did no be honest with themselves. No matter how one passes, has a good job, etc, if it isn't them, transition would still make them miserable.

Perhaps there are many more that actually re-transition or are ex-trans but collecting data would be a hard one. After trying to convince others for years and even your whole life of who and what you are, would you actually accept the fact that you were wrong and admit it others? I know it would be hard for me.

Quoted from a 10 years post-ops chatter from the chat room:

"With each one that admits, half a dozen more wouldn't."

who "saw the light" of "God's WAYS" and that they now realized that God had plans for them in their "original" gender and saw through the "lies" of transitioning

So in reality, is it really "seeing the light of God's WAYS" or is it the simple fact that transition was never for them in the first place? Instead of admitting that they made their own mistake, it would be easier to say that God showed them the "right way".

So now they are accepted by their church and asked to speak to large groups and they are positive that it is all because now they are doing God's work.

Love ya,

Sally

Jenda said something about that before, that perhaps, religion and "preaching and ministering" to large groups of people serve as a distraction from the inner conflict they have, and a strong distraction it is.

[Guest skyy]

i realize that i sort of missed something. i did mention some stuff about the choice factor, but i didnt point out that i dont think it is a choice for gay or straight people. none of it really applies to me, since i'm pansexual, for me, it really is a choice...ish, still cant avoid love. all i'm trying to say is there is nothing to apogize for, choice or not. for these people, having the natural tendency to sin is in human nature, for them gay is a sin, and it is a choice to follow through with being in gay relationships, hence the lifestyle. it being proven that sexuality is predetermined is most likely not going to stop these people. and you know, fighting so hard to justify being gay only makes it look like we arent proud to follow our hearts, and that seems to contradict what this movement is all about. we arent any less for being gay, and so i think we should stop acting like we are. i'm not ashamed of who i am, and even if there was a choice, and the world was really all pansexual, it wouldnt stop me from dating who i want. thats my point

these ex-gay camps are definitly something i have a much more violent reaction to. before, i was talking about independant decision. but this camp thing is just way too dangerous, so are these ex-trans camp things. it is really nothing more than murder in my mind, pushing these people to suicide. and i also feel i should point out that i hardly think everyone involved in these things have good intentions. some people just use God to justify their evil actions. just wanted people to know that i understand that.

and that is my update. thanks for encouraging the soapbox speeches, cause i can talk all day, ask Deeedoo, he/she has heard me rant for hours.

PINK PANTHERS UNITE!!!!!

[Guest ~Brenda~]

I would like to add a comment on this re-transition issue....

Re-transitioning is extremely rare. Much more rare than transitioning itself. I feel bad for those that have re-transitioned due to outside pressures (i.e. family, church, job, etc). Those unfortunate people were on their path all the way, but somehow lost themselves to the will of others (very, very sad). Even sadder are those that were not truthful to themselves, to their therapists. So that they somehow got through all of the safety nets and got SRS. Only to discover that the fantasy of physically changing gender did not meet the reality of changing gender. So now they are even more depressed than ever and decide to have the surgery once again to restore their original physical gender.

There is a very, very important lesson here. BE HONEST!!! Be honest with yourself. Be honest with your therapists. Be honest with all those who are around you. Transitioning is not a contest. Transitioning is very serious. Us older ones have lived long enough to know that when it is time to transition, we know all of the ramificatoins of what that means. I caution you younger ones to be very, very honest! Transitioning is a very hard road that no one wants to travel if they can help it. It is a road of hardship, peril, and great personal loss. At the same time, transitioning is a time of true self awareness, resolve, and peace with yourself.

Don't have any illusions that much of the realities of your life will change at all after you transition. You will be you, truely, but your life will still have the bills, the worry, the drama, as all lives have. Don't look at transitioning as a panacea for all of your whoes.

But remember... Transitioning is what saves us.

Be yourself, Be honest.

Love you all

Brenda

[Guest gentleman1]

Hi all,

I don't know what denomination this person is from, Brenda and no, no names were given. (?)

So many good responses and replies all. Thanks!!!!!!!! Whether any of you knew it or not, you all ministered to me. I sometimes still have struggles with Christianity and my being trans so much so, that I almost lost my faith altogether. I was raised very, VERY conservatively in a "holiness" Pentecostal Church where there was a very clear line drawn between the "boys" and the "girls". Any deviation from this line would risk incurring the wrath of "God, the Just Judge". So, I never did for many years. Plus when I was young (still a child), I never said anything to my parents because I was afraid that I was crazy, so I just denied it. I strongly believed that if I was going to be pleasing to God, then I had to accept myself exactly the way He made me and that seemed to clearly be female.......at least from what my eyes told me... I later converted as an adult to Catholicism and became just as strict in adhering to that faith as I used to with pentecostalism.. Anyway, every once in awhile, I still wonder if I did the right thing by transitioning. I mean, if there really was a way to get the mind to agree with the body and not vice-versa, I would have a moral obligation to try that, wouldn't I? So, the " tail-chasing" story goes from time to time with me.

Incidently, I recently had top surgery, and there is no mistaking the peace I have when I see my "new" chest. I feel so much relief! Go figure!

JEvan- You hit one nail right on the head - many of these "conservative christians" think that transexualism is nothing more than "hyper-homosexuality". I could and do very strongly disagree. -Shawn

[Guest gentleman1]

Brenda,

That last post should be posted somewhere prominently (sp?) at every turn of a newly transitioning person's journey and maybe somewhere on this forum. AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everything you said is so very,VERY true. You're awesome as are the other wonderful ladies here! - Shawn

[Guest Evan_J]

"new" chest. I feel so much relief!

You're the first person I've heard (or maybe paid attention to?) other than me use that exact word regarding the chest surgery. I was asked afterwards "are you happy now?" and it actually made me feel like scowling at the person or kind of feeling "angry". Happy? Who would feel "happy" about needing to be cut? Relief was the thing I undoubtedly felt and gratitude to god but not "happy"/ha ha/ isn't this fun.