A Moral/ethical Question

[Guest CharlieRose]

Ok, here's something that's been bobbing around my head for a while. We've sort of had variations of it, but nothing exactly like what I'm thinking.

Ok, now let's get our ethical dilemma scenario hats on!

Imagine you are about to have a child. It can be a child you or a spouse is carrying, or maybe a surrogate, or maybe an adoption but you're in close contact with the birthmother. Or maybe you can stretch your imagination a bit further and imagine that you're a soon-to-be cisgender parent. Or, if you can't imagine being a parent, imagine someone you know is expecting a child and came to you for advice, since you're a transsexual.

Now in this alternate universe, they can test for a lot more things that we can't right now. Imagine they could do a test that would determine if a child was transsexual several weeks or maybe even months before birth.

Would you want to know? How would you raise this child, or recommend it be raised?

And, to stir the pot further, what if they could cure it? Not in the sense that it would make an FTM a girl, or vice versa, but that it would make an FTM a boy and vice versa. It wouldn't alter the child/fetus, ('cause if this was even remotely possible it'd probably have to be REALLY far ahead) it'd just correct this defect/condition before it even started.

Would you do it? (or recommend it?) What if it *did* "cure" them in the making a potential FTM a girl way? Would you think that would be the best course of action?

I'm quite curious to see everyone's thoughts as "experts in the field," so to speak. (It's sort of like the cochlear implant issue in the deaf community, eh?) I'll share mine later.

[Guest ~Brenda~]

Well Daniel

You had to make me work tonight didn't you, make my head hurt!

OK here goes. Speaking as a parent of three chiildren, when we had the ultrasound we could know the biological gender of the child at that time. We both refused to know then because we wanted to wait until our child was born. All we wanted to know then was if the baby was healthy. Now if the ultrasound indicated a severe health problem we would consider the option of intervention pre-nataly if the risk was low and the gain was high (very tough choice here and I do not mean to trivialize it!! As a parent, something like this would have turned my world upside down!!). With that said, as far as identifying if my child was transgendered while still in the womb, I would likely say that falls into the category of not wanting to know the biological gender of my child until after my baby was born.

To answer your question about intervention pre-nataly for a "cure", I would say this... assume that the state of the art of obstetrics wad advanced enough to say plainly... your child is developing a body counter-opposed to your child's brain development (i.e. your child developing as transgendered) , and they said with a none-risk intervention we can alter your baby's body development to be align with your baby's brain development then I would say yes... do it. Only and I repeat only under those specific circumstances would I even consider such a thing.

Brenda

[Carolyn Marie]

Well, this is really one for the medical ethics experts, but I'll venture an opinion.

The doctor's first responsibility is, "do no harm." So if there was any risk of harm to the fetus by altering

it in any way, an ethical doctor would not, nor would I allow it. If there was no risk of harm, then it comes

down to a decision about quality of life.

In the case of transsexualism, that is a really difficult issue. You the prospective parent would be

substituting your judgment for that of your child. How many of us would have wanted our parents to

make that decision for us?. How can you know what would ultimately make your child happier,

more fulfilled or "better off?"

If, in this future world, transsexualism or other gender dysphoric conditions could be diagnosed in the womb,

the issue of "choice vs. inborn" would have been long settled, and such conditions would no longer carry the

stigma society imposes us today. That would make it much easier to allow the fetus to develop without

any intervention, knowing that when he or she is old enough, their own informed decision to remain their birth gender or not

would not result in the emotional trauma we face now. My choice would be not to choose for my child,

but to let them choose, knowing that whichever choice they make, I will support them with all my love.

Carolyn Marie

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

I would support that choice Carolyn, I dont think its up to me as a parent to be telling my child what gender they can or can not live in. To me thats like playin God (a role for which I lack the wisdom).

[Guest Evan_J]

Wow. Charlie, don't ask any more difficult questions, okay? lol jk Whew. I want to be conscious of the kids opportunity to have that decision to transition for themself, but at the same time worry that it would be like it is now, transition with an "imperfect" male body. Knowing that feeling, I'm inclined to want my son not to have to feel what I feel. Maybe I would be sexist about it. If the child were a MtF, because the surgical outcome is better, I might let that child have the decision. If the child were FtM I might give them the opportunity to have a functioning male body. If that child changed its mind after birth then easier to change back and I would not ask them to wait through any bio changes.

[Sally]

I have the problem of making life altering decissions for someone else, my child or anyone else's.

And the real problem comes from the simple fact that we have no way of knowing what the child would prefer.

The danger of correcting or preventing 'defects' is that physical and mental are only part of the equation for how someone will develop and what they will do in life, environment makes aup a large portion as well - without the element of transgender in the environment, how much different would you be?

As a particular study once performed after a seemingly healty young athlete collapsed and dies it was determined that he had a birth defect, Marfan Syndrome (a hereditary disorder characterized by abnormally elongated bones, esp. in the extremities, hypermotility of the joints, and circulatory and eye abnormalities.)

It was felt that the possibilities of leasing a healthy normal life was almost impossible as there is no treatment for the disease so someone suggested that if the syndrome was detected in a fetus that an abortion would be the 'humane' thing to do for the unborn child.

Just so you will know what a horrible idea this would have been a couple of notible people who were listed in the study as having the syndrome - all of the outward signs in the case of the one who died about 30 years before Dr. Marfan discovered the syndrome - Kareem Abdul-Jabar and Abraham Lincoln, both were very active and had no instances of circulatory problems - so what would have happened to the world if Abe's parents had decided not to subject their child to such a limited life?

Nature has a powerful set of checks and balances - would Steven Hawkins' parents have wanted their child to be confined to a wheel chair unable to even speak - what would the world have missed if they had acted in mercy to spare this poor unfortunate mental giant?

What if they could have given him a perfect body and he spent his time playing baseball instead of reading everything he could all day because he couldn't play baseball would we be better off for the Yankees having a great Short Shop?

Nothing happens in a vacuum and each ripple in the Ocean effects the next until a tidal wave is formed - you can not change one person without effecting everyone.

I think it is a question that should not be concidered and I certainly wouldn't.

Love ya,

Sally

[Guest Tammy Maher]

I would that child as my own (if they were adopted). They would grow up knowing my trans issues and when they finally decided to come out to me I would support them any way I could. I would raise the as the assigned sex (I know bad idea right?) but at the first sign of their unhappiness or whatever that would change. I would immediately raise them girl/guy as they choose. I wouldn't do a pre birth SRS because in all reality it is their choice to transition or not.

[Guest Rain]

If they knew that, you might be opening an even bigger can of worms. Maybe they could even fix it if they could catch it early enough. They are already messing around with genes when kids are born, so who knows. It is like what Sally said about Stephen Hawking. Who knows, fixing the problem could in turn make more problems. I have to say Sally, I would have never looked at it in this aspect. You make a great point. Do any of you think, if they could fix it, should they? I am curious to hear what you think.

[Guest Rain]

I asked the question in your other topic, would people want a cure if there was one when the baby was still a fetus. Woops, sorry

[Guest gentleman1]

This is a tough topic. My first reaction to "if there were a cure" for transexualism, would you allow it for your child? My first immediate response was to think "heck yes!!!" I woulddn't wish anyone to suffer from this condition anymore. True the suffering from being in the wrong body is bad enough, but the societal rejection overall is even worse....at least to me it is especially if you are MTF. It breaks my heart when I go out with my MTF friend to the store and I see her getting these dirty looks and whispers from those around us. It also ticks me off and that's putting it mildly for the sake of this forum. I could not imagine having my child go through this!!! That having been said, educating society, educating the child about the condition so he or she does not feel overwhelming revulsion for his/her body, allowing him/her the option to transition at a younger age, and definately NO ABORTION!!!!!!!!, these sound like reasonable steps to me. -S.

I wouldn't allow intrauterine surgery as I feel that would be too risky. ? But I'll admit up front that I have no children this side of life. -S.

[Guest AllisonD]

Since so many opinions are already in, and in fact they seem fairly consistent across all the contributors, how about let's stretch the science out just a little bit further. After all, we are already at the point, in the statement of the question at least, of being able to test a fetal brain for gender and then altering physical gender to match.

So let's stretch a bit, and simply delay physical gender manifestation altogether until puberty. Come 12 or 13 or whatever, the child gets to choose, and develops as s/he should based on zir own choice. While we are at it, the given name becomes automatically obsolete and the clerks in the town hall adjust your birth certificate to your chosen name while they are inking in your gender choice.

Who would turn that down, hmm?

Allison

[Guest Jean Davis]

I would have to say no unless it was a matter of life or death. There are two main reasons why I chose this responce.

First- The transgender condition is too broad of a spectrum, If I were to have the procedure done there is no way of saying that the child would familiarize themself with the other gender and just want to cross dress. I'll stand with Allison and wait until puberty to let the child make the decision.

To make this choice would be no better than the doctors and parents did for intersexxed childeren.

Second- If they had the technology to do this it would be a pretty solid assumption that their other proceedures would be far more advanced then they are now and probably be much safer with better results.

Now to answer Brenda's comment. I have not had to make that decision for anyone else yet but I feel that if there is no risk of the use of any limbs or of death the decision should be the patient's choice. The patient is going to have to live with the results for the rest of their lives.

jean

[Guest Thorndrop]

Seriously tough question.

I don't ever want kids, so thankfully I won't have to deal with hard questions like this in real life.

But anyway, hypothetically speaking, I'd rather not know the kid's biological gender untill it was born. I'd let them wear what they want and decide for themselves how they want to look, who they want to be friends with and what toys they want. Untill they could decide this for themselves, I'd probably present them as somewhat gender-neutral, since I hate the idea of pushing gender onto someone before they can even think for themselves.

As for 'curing' them.. I'd just rather not mess with nature. Let life take it's course as they grow up and I'd support them in how they wanted to be.

- Chaz

[Guest interalia]

I see lots of us who don't like the idea of altering the fetus in the womb. I wonder how many of us are against abortion.

I would want to know if the fetus had a problem just as I'd like to know about any other defect in the womb. Wanting to know if the child is transgendered is no different to me. At least by knowing early, I could start early helping the child so they are not pulled to pieces by their condition or destroyed by social expectations.

Now if there were a cure in the womb, I'd totally go for it. I don't care which way the cure goes (mind or body fix) I'd do it, anything to ensure their mind/body is congruent.

[Guest S. Chrissie]

Nature has a powerful set of checks and balances - would Steven Hawkins' parents have wanted their child to be confined to a wheel chair unable to even speak - what would the world have missed if they had acted in mercy to spare this poor unfortunate mental giant?

What if they could have given him a perfect body and he spent his time playing baseball instead of reading everything he could all day because he couldn't play baseball would we be better off for the Yankees having a great Short Shop?

But even if we do go back to Hawking's time and with the technology to "cure" his disabilities, would his parents or even the doctor think about the potential future Stephen has if he lives with the disabilities? If he was to be "cured" and he became one of the best baseball player, his parents would probably go "Thank god we did that procedure for Stephen! He's now a famous baseball player" And Stephen Hawking's himself would probably be glad that his parents did what they did, without knowing the "alternate reality" that he would have been an astronomer that would create history in the field of astronomy.

What I am trying to say, is that, we can fall upon the past, history or whatever and go "Thank goodness we chose to (not to do/do ) that (whatever it is) in the past, it really was a wise choice!". The problem is, tying it to the present dilemma at hand. I just don't find it...feasible..comparing the past with now, simply because we cannot see into the future to know about the reprecussion of our action at hand, or the "alternate endings" of choosing another action.

For me, I would seriously consider the potential of " curing" the fetus so that the child would have a higher chance to grow up to be relatively happy, and I say relatively, because we can only guess that without the dysphoric feeling, the child would probably have a higher chance to function in society. And I would believe that's what most parents and doctors would consider if faced with the same dillema.

Sure, maybe if that fetus was to be left as "it" is, growing up and show signs of dysphoria and those stuff, the child could potentially be a famous activist or someone important that changed how society view the transgender community. Or perhaps the child would be a famous surgeon, further improving the techniques for SRS. But the problem is...how do we guess, or know all these "alternate realms" of the future? We simply can't. For me, I would make a decision that would have a higher chance of working out and live with it.

P.S. Even if Stephen Hawking was "cured" and really became a famous baseball player instead of an astronomer, the world still goes round and life still goes on and perhaps someone else would eventually discover the things Stephen Hawking would discover if he was an astronomer instead.

[Guest CharlieRose]

Good point, Chrissie. You're coming more from where I was thinking.

Messing with nature is something we do every day, and since transsexuality is by many of our own definitions either an intersex condition or a birth defect, preventing or curing it would be like curing any other disease, no? How many of us haven't wished/hoped/prayed we just couldn't have been born matching on the inside and out? If my parents had the option, I think I would prefer it in many ways if they cured me.

But, and this is the same dilemma deaf society faces with cochlear implants, my transsexuality is a huge part of me. I think that transgenderism, as difficult and trying as it is, can in some lights show itself to be part of a beautiful spectrum of human variation. I wouldn't want to see its existence done away with, swept under the rug. We are just as much people as anyone else, transgender identity and all. That's where my dilemma comes in. Of course it would be nicer, but should we do things just because they make our lives easier? That's what a lot of our society is going towards nowadays. Why walk? It's easier to drive. Why read? It's easier to watch a movie. But in that we often forget that nothing in live that's worth having comes easy. In a lot of ways I consider myself lucky to be trans, despite all the sadness it's caused me. So it's a tough call for me, too.

[Guest S. Chrissie]

But, and this is the same dilemma deaf society faces with cochlear implants, my transsexuality is a huge part of me. I think that transgenderism, as difficult and trying as it is, can in some lights show itself to be part of a beautiful spectrum of human variation. I wouldn't want to see its existence done away with, swept under the rug. We are just as much people as anyone else, transgender identity and all. That's where my dilemma comes in. Of course it would be nicer, but should we do things just because they make our lives easier? That's what a lot of our society is going towards nowadays. Why walk? It's easier to drive. Why read? It's easier to watch a movie.

Yes, I agree that having various variations in the spectrum of human variation sound nice, but in my opnion, they would only exist if society as a whole accept the variations. At the moment, I believe most of us knows about the bigots that are rampant, those that even claim findings such as homosexuality and transsexuality in the animal kingdom to be mere pseudoscience that GLBT groups use to further their agenda. In that case, I would think that the thought of sweeping its existence under the rug more appealing...well..to the bigots (finally, no more "social tainting!) and also the transgender community (Thank god we don't need to suffer because of those bigots).

But in that we often forget that nothing in live that's worth having comes easy. In a lot of ways I consider myself lucky to be trans, despite all the sadness it's caused me. So it's a tough call for me, too.

In my opinion, our cherishness of our gender giftedness doesn't come straight away, nor is it easily accepted by ourselves early on. Untl we go through the better part of our transition, do we start to see the unique situation we were trusted upon and cherish it, much like the deaf society I guess. But in the beginning, it would be a hard one, and in the case of having the means to change or "cure" transsexuality, it seems like it would make trans children to blame their parents even more for not "curing" them when it was possible, forcing them to face the woes of being transgender (which I believe most of us are familiar with)

Anyway, what I was trying to say is

In a lot of ways I consider myself lucky to be trans,

probably won't arrive until we've been through the hardship of being "different", variation that the mainstream society doesn't acknowledge, and survive it. I believe, by then, will we really appreciate our gender giftedness. (Don't forget about those that died of hate crime...if I was being faced with the potential of being subjected to hate crime...I guess trading my gender giftedness to be fitted into the narrow box of gender binary would seem more appealing)

Sherlyn

[Guest Joanna Phipps]

Right now there is so much that is unkown about genetic interactions and how changing fetal development can affect things. Even if they were to come up with a solution to GID, I wonder if by fixing that issue they may not create some other issue which could be many orders of magnitude worse. Remember that current research is speculating that one of the issues which might create our condition happens in the first 6 weeks of gestation. At that stage most of the cells are yet to differentiate so there really is nothing to work with in the line of correcting the issue. Not only that but to truly 'cure' GID the cause of the mistimed hormone bath has to be found and stopped so that the right one can happen on time.

To do a proper job of fixing this problem, genetically, we will likely need to know exactly what every gene in the human genome does and what happens when you turn each on. What sequences of genes force the encoding of what marterials, given that the Human Genome Progect estimates that there are between 20,000 and 25,000 genes in our genome and that we dont know what sequences do what or how many genes need to be activated, and in what order, to cause a certain effect. I doubt that we will ever be likely to be able to say with any certainty just what the true cause(s) of GID are.

Current research is pointing to not only a genetic component but also the external hormone issue. Who knows if there are other potential causes which haven't been thought of or discovered yet.

[Guest Martin]

If I knew my child was to be transsexual and there was a way to make him or her congruent without side effects, I would do it.

When I was born, my hip joints weren't formed correctly. For the first few months of my life, I had to wear leg braces day and night. From what my mother says, I wasn't very happy with that situation. It took me longer to learn to roll over, I had doctor appointments, getting changed took much longer, and so on. I don't remember any of that, obviously, but I wonder if it changed my personality. When I learned about this, I was furious with my parents for having changed me. Back then, I was very anti-medication and anti-braces (for teeth) and so on. I thought that the point of life was to embrace what happened to use, to learn to relish each sensation - no matter if it was pleasurable or painful. I was so angry that they did not accept me as I was and allowed a doctor to perform non-consensual medicine on me. However, I changed my mind. Now I'm grateful that I can walk without pain and that I'm capable of riding a bike - both things that would never have happened without those braces. Frankly, I have more than enough to deal with without that thrown into the mix. I realize that it wasn't that my parents didn't accept me, it was that they wanted their child to have the least pain and the most possibilities. They wouldn't have loved me less if I was crippled.

Transsexualism isn't any different. Yes, you might get a few angry teens, but I think most everyone would be grateful for being allowed to be themselves from birth on.

It really, really bothers me that I didn't get medical attention for my transsexualism until my late teens. If only I had started testosterone before puberty hit, I would have sensation in my chest. I wouldn't have had to undergo top surgery at all. My chest would look right to me in a way it never will. Without the wrong puberty, maybe my mental illnesses wouldn't have gotten as bad (they got much, much, MUCH worse when that first puberty hit). If I had grown up with people seeing my boy self, social situations would have been easier and I would benefit from the correct socialization. If I had a child that I knew was transsexual, I would make sure she or he didn't have to go through that. I wouldn't push him or her to do anything he or she didn't want, but I would make sure the options were available. And if there was a way to allow an FTM child to get a cissexual penis through treatment before birth or right after birth, I'd go for it.

Now, if I didn't know for sure that the child was a binary identified transsexual, but just some shade of transgender, I would wait. I would make sure ze knew I would call hir whatever pronouns ze chose (with the option of changing them as often as ze liked), allow hir to dress however ze liked, and educate hir about medical options, but I wouldn't do anything medical until it was clear what ze actually wants.

I would never abort a child simply because I knew ze was transgendered/transsexual. However, there are conditions were I believe that is the ethical choice. If I knew a child was to go through the depths of depression and extreme fear I have gone through, I would abort. I would never, ever wish that upon anyone and really believe death is the preferable alternative. I don't know if there are other conditions were I'd make that decision, but there might be. But being trans isn't one of them.