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Would Transsexuals Be Easier To Accept If We Had Better Bodies?


Guest Evan_J

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I know that the title of this topic sounds completely "ludacrist" but consider it.

A lot of the criticism, freakouts, and even arguments that "you're not a real woman"/"you're not a real man" endured by transpeople from the mainstream revolve around the body and the fact that after all the hormones and surgeries they are not "up to the standard" of the factory model ones. If transpeople had the opportunity to have far better results on both sides, do you think that it would improve the liklihood of transgender acceptance? If there were no instances of visually having discernable differences between a genetic famale and transgendered female, no discernable differences between a genetic male and a transgendered male. Would the fact that the people had transitioned have as much of a problem from mainstream society? Because I'm actually thinking this morning that a lot of people would have "less of a problem".

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The 'others' would have less of a problem only if they did not know you before because undetecable would mean total stealth and they would never know.

Upon finding out the average moron would become violent and abusive - changing our bodies to perfect would still be just for us - acceptance of transgender is still a long way and a lot of education away.

Love ya,

Sally

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I think that the more you do during your transition the more you become acceptable to "society " as the person that you really are. Self acceptance must come first and foremost and continue all throughout the rest of your life.

:wub: vanna

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Lets say the individual didn't go out of his way to be stealth. Its on a "need to know " basis.

And if there's still arguement (I'm sure it would be there from some people) would it just be with regard to the hyper religious?

Would peeps be less opposed to say hiring a FtM accountant? Having their neice date the said person? Why or why not ? This person is no longer "distracting" while appearing in the office, perfectly formed in the restroom, there is a complete physical match with a genetic male. You just "are aware" that they trasitioned cuz your pediatrist is friends with his mother (hypothetical situation).

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  • Admin
I think that the more you do during your transition the more you become acceptable to "society " as the person that you really are. Self acceptance must come first and foremost and continue all throughout the rest of your life.

:wub: vanna

I agree completely with that statement. I also believe that transpeople are held to a different standard.

There are plenty, I mean PLENTY, of unatractive cisgendred people in the world. No one stares at them

or gives them a second thought. If a transperson doesn't meet some artificial standard of beauty

or handsomeness, why should that even be an issue.

Transpeople come in all shapes and sizes, just like the rest of the world, because we ARE part of

the rest of the world. The cisgendered world just needs to get over it.

Carolyn Marie

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I know that the title of this topic sounds completely "ludacrist" but consider it.

A lot of the criticism, freakouts, and even arguments that "you're not a real woman"/"you're not a real man" endured by transpeople from the mainstream revolve around the body and the fact that after all the hormones and surgeries they are not "up to the standard" of the factory model ones. If transpeople had the opportunity to have far better results on both sides, do you think that it would improve the liklihood of transgender acceptance? If there were no instances of visually having discernable differences between a genetic famale and transgendered female, no discernable differences between a genetic male and a transgendered male. Would the fact that the people had transitioned have as much of a problem from mainstream society? Because I'm actually thinking this morning that a lot of people would have "less of a problem".

Idon't know I've never gotten by on "good looks' whether I think of myself as male or female...

Always got by on wit, charm and personality, with a sense of humor that knocks them dead..well maybe not knocks them dead , but a smirk from the audience.

;)

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Guest N. Jane

It isn't about us, it's about "'them".

It doesn't matter if you were the most drop-dead gorgeous creature ever to walk the earth, as soon as your ancient history is known, you are "second rate" or worse yet, "a freak", not because of who or what YOU are but because of how they see you and the questions/doubt your background raises in them, their own insecurities and ignorance.

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Guest Donna Jean
I agree completely with that statement. I also believe that transpeople are held to a different standard.

There are plenty, I mean PLENTY, of unatractive cisgendred people in the world. No one stares at them

or gives them a second thought. If a transperson doesn't meet some artificial standard of beauty

or handsomeness, why should that even be an issue.

Carolyn Marie

YOU GO, GIRLFRIEND!

That's the way!

DANG YEAH!

HUMPHF!

Donna Jean

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Guest gentleman1

I think the difficulties we face now would still exist because to me, it's not about how our bodies look or don't look. It's about the "God does not make mistakes, who are YOU to determine that He did" mentality that is very difficult for people to overcome, and secondly, I think people, men in particular, have a hard time of "whacking off that penis (can I say that here?) thing. Why would anybody want to rid themselves of THAT? Nah, I wish it could be that easy, Evan, but ignorance is a pretty stubborn obstacle to overcome no matter how "perfect" our bodies would be. Hopefully some day this will change and merely be seen as another medical phenomenon that doesn't require "headlines", but simply medical treatment like any other condition does. - S.

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Guest ~Brenda~

Evan,

You bring up a very good point. I have to say that I tend to agree... if one completely transitioned, and was guranteed that they would be beautiful/handsome and society at large regarded trans people as idealistically gorgeous (like super models) then I am sure there would be much more acceptance from the general population for transgendered people. As cynical as this sounds.... if all transgendered people who completely transitioned were all idealistically beautiful, many people would not only accept transgendered people, they would envy not being transgendered themselves (how ironic would that be!).

Additionally, I think if SRS included the biological reproductive organs as well (i.e. transwomen could bear children, transmen could sire children) then I am sure that transgenderism would be more widely accepted.

Now with all that being said... I am puzzled on these points..

1. Many biological men and women cannot bear/sire children. So why are they not ostracized?

2. Ther are many biological and "cis" women and men that naturally can pass for the other gender, but are not trans. I have known many "males" that looked dang good as females, but do not consider themselves as "trans" in anyway. Same is true for some women that I have known. Gosh one could pass as my father!!

I guess what I am questioning here is that there is something deeper than just passing, having children, that disturbs the general population about transgendered people.

I remember an episode on "House" where a perfectly beautiful woman (idealistically beautiful) married, etc. Came to house because of what appeared to be a problem with her ovaries. What actually was the problem was that one of her testicals was cancerous. Now this women was not trans in the traditional sense. She was born female as anyone could tell, and raised as a female. She was actually born with an extreme intersex condition where one has XY chromosomes, but looks like the ideal woman. Regardless of how beautiful she was, once it was found out that she had XY chromosomes her husband was disgusted and left her and she hated herself and exclaimed that she was not beautiful anymore.

Beauty and transgenderism and acceptance are a twisted dance.

I have ranted on and on and realize that I have contradicted myself and have no idea of the point I was trying to make.

In summary, beauty will satisfy many people, but not all. Bearing/siring children will satisfy many people, but not all. Something about the chromosomes seems to have the most basic primordial influence. I think that the true answer is deeper than hormones... it is chromosomes.

I think that the day will come that being identified as transgendered will have no more impact on a persons thought than being identified as left handed

Sorry to babble so...

Brenda

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Guest Jean Davis

Personally, I think if I could look in the mirror and see a woman looking back at me that would be a major esteem booster for me.

Growing up I got alot of slack about my last name (It's one of those with a toboggan ( no that's not it) bobsled ( no that's not it either) ahh yes ski at the end :lol: ). So I acquired kind of a thick skin and a knowledge that you can't please everyone.

LUV

Jean

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Guest Jean Davis
I remember an episode on "House" where a perfectly beautiful woman (idealistically beautiful) married, etc. Came to house because of what appeared to be a problem with her ovaries. What actually was the problem was that one of her testicals was cancerous. Now this women was not trans in the traditional sense. She was born female as anyone could tell, and raised as a female. She was actually born with an extreme intersex condition where one has XY chromosomes, but looks like the ideal woman. Regardless of how beautiful she was, once it was found out that she had XY chromosomes her husband was disgusted and left her and she hated herself and exclaimed that she was not beautiful anymore.

That's my favorite episode. :D

Jean

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Guest CharlieRose

For some people: Yes.

For everyone: No.

There are many people who are quite shallow and believe what they see. "I don't care if she's a dude, she's HOT!"

There are many people who have deep issues of their own that cause them to need to find anything to keep us "in our place." "I don't care if he had a sex change, he still has chromosomes and can't get pregnant so he's still a man!"

It's absurd, but surprisingly prevalent in many people. I've witnessed it. (Ex saying she "didn't buy" that a friend's father was transfemale because "he doesn't even look like a girl." *headdesk*)

I think it's part of why transwomen are less accepted than transmen. There's definitely a stereotype that transwomen are ugly and/or look like men in women's clothing, the "drag queen" stereotype. (But I think you girls are all beautiful)

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Guest Joanna Phipps
I know that the title of this topic sounds completely "ludacrist" but consider it.

A lot of the criticism, freakouts, and even arguments that "you're not a real woman"/"you're not a real man" endured by transpeople from the mainstream revolve around the body and the fact that after all the hormones and surgeries they are not "up to the standard" of the factory model ones. If transpeople had the opportunity to have far better results on both sides, do you think that it would improve the liklihood of transgender acceptance? If there were no instances of visually having discernable differences between a genetic famale and transgendered female, no discernable differences between a genetic male and a transgendered male. Would the fact that the people had transitioned have as much of a problem from mainstream society? Because I'm actually thinking this morning that a lot of people would have "less of a problem".

Mankind fears, then seeks to control that which he doesnt understand. None of our groups are understood or accepted outside of our own community. To the average person the fight or flight kicks in and many, sadly, opt to fight us physically rather than sitting with us and trying to understand what we are all about.

To my mind the functionality, or lack there of, of the replacement parts holds little value in the discrimination against us. Fear born of lack of understanding, lack of the desire to understand, fear born of our bending and breaking of one of socieity's most closely held tennets. Fear that what we have is some how contagious; basically all of the same fears, and prejudices which were leveled agianst the gays and have been used against many minorities in an attempt to marginalize and dehumanize.

Fear born of the fact that as one person said, "as soon as I belong, its time to disappear" greater society has no idea who is trans because our goal is to transition, dissapear into the woodwork, and then live out the remainder of our lives as happy and productive members of our target gender. This is unlike many of the Gays and Lesbians who do tend to remind society that there are other flavors of relationships.

It seems that several things keep society fearful of us

  • their lack of understanding as to why we HAVE to do what we do
  • their perception, fed by mass media, that this is a lifestyle choice
  • their lack of understanding as to why we break the binary
  • their lack of knowlege of the parts of our rainbow and why people are that way
  • the dissapearing act which our people do as soon as they get far enough into transition
  • for MTF's especially the upsetting of the power balance by moving to a 'weaker' level rather than leading the fight

This is the way I see the problem, I dont know if others agree and it will be good to see the varience of opinion on this point.


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Guest Joanna Phipps
I've always got this fantasy story in my head that someday we'll be able to reverse our genetics and become the opposite sex in every way - physically as well as sexually. In that case, there wouldn't be anyone to know, and more people would probably opt for it - becoming a mainstream activity possibly.

So, I'd answer yes. If I could pass 100% then I believe that I'd be accepted nearly 100%. The ones who didn't accept me would be the same ones who would find fault regardless.

For me passing hasnt been about looks. In the early days fo the, prehormone, RLT and certainly now it is about attitude, presentation (do you seem female enough to not get that second look), clothing (mine isnt flashy, its practical and comfortable), knowing enough about hair, makeup and how to shave so that the nasty hairs dont show.

I would say that 98% of the time I pass fairly well, i have issues around kids and teens because for some reason they tend to see through my defences but I can usually ignore the disspariging comments. If I have been read in Wal-Mart no one has ever come up to me an outed me to the entire store.

My goal is to just be another woman on the sidewalk, interestingly enough after only nearly a month on hormones and nearly 3 months RLE i am well on my way to this goal. I am accepted as female at nearly every place I have to go when out and around, am accepted as female at work (yes I'm fully out). Once my name change is done and the ID reflects who I truly am then people wont have a choice.

I already have the attitude that I can ignore most of the idiots who try to make a fool of me. They want to get a rise out of me but I wont take the bait. For me it would be brining myself to their low level, this gal wont do that.

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Kia Ora Evan,

:rolleyes: Speaking as a semi stealth [trans]-female - from a personal experience and observation…

On the small island where I live there are those who know of my past and those who don’t, and sometimes even the ones I think know, turns out were unaware of my past when I happen to mention it - So when it comes to being stealth, I’m stealth to those who don’t know[they don't know so don't care] and those who know don't care…

In answer to your question I would have to say yes those of us who ‘blend in’ [look the part] have a easier time of it, and for the most part even when our past is exposed [because of our convincing feminine appearance] people find it easier to accept us…-[One as also to take into account here in Aotearoa [NZ] we are not burdened with as many bible bashing religious ‘nut jobs’ as you are in North American-we have a few but not enough to be of any major concern]…

But it’s a sad fact some trans-people ‘do’ challenge society’s concept of gender …I have heard some people [including close friends] say when referring to other trans-people they have met “I find it hard seeing/accepting so and so as a female!” Now theses people for the most part are not ‘transphobic’ in any way and would not discriminate against them, it’s just that some trans ‘identifiable’ people tend to challenge some cisgender people's ‘personalised’ concept of gender…

Attractiveness does tend to play a part in passing and acceptance for trans-women, but for the most part most trans-women who pass are 'accepted' because they just look like plain Janes[no offence to any Janes] –just your everyday run of the mill female…

Metta Jendar :)

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Guest Jeannine Bean

I observed differences in family responses between an FtM and an FtM with "perfect pass" and yes, a lot of social problems go away...

And no he really isn't much saner or more self-accepting, LOL... other than that he's happier living the life he wants. People seem to get over it and accept, even when they know his history.

In my opinion, even the pretty translady i hung out with in town failed the 1/4 mile test, i.e. almost anyone would out her at a quarter mile away... and in Atlanta, where people see LOTS of Crossdressers, she wasn't as "passable" as them (they use all kinds of "fake" augmentations that she and a lot of transladies never use)... she was outed by vocally by a flower salesman on the street... Pretty passable, but ironically not so much in a town where people "know what to look for." And he implied that I was pervy for hanging out with her...

Then there's Renee Richards. I honesty think if she had FFS or a more feminine brow line and all that, then she wouldn't have had most of the social problems she had.

I think it's the thing we all dislike the most, and the lesson we all learn early:

People believe what they see. They come to the quickest conclusion based on visual impressions... This is a biologically sound thing to do for our species.

So Yea, Evan.

I think society is a lot nicer when people have a "perfect pass" like Metta Said, even when they get "outed" or when folks know the person's history.

--Jeannine

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Guest Charlene_Leona

Yea for me I have no real problems passing any longer and as a matter of fact a man in front of me in line yesterday told me I was a very attractive lady, to which I thanked him very much and went on with my business. I don't even consider myself a beauty but I do take care of myself dress my age and wear very little makeup. I would even happily say yes I'm a plain Jane if you really got down to it. I don't try to over do it or strut my stuff. I do love myself keep my head held very high and always have a smile on my face. That tends to disarm allot of people who attempt to get my gruff, I just don't let them. I don't think you have to have a body that will kill to be accepted, you just have to accept yourself after that what can people do to you. Yea they can try to hurt you but I haven't even had anyone make a move to hurt me, I carry myself to well for that.

Guys and Girls stop worrying what other's think of you, love yourself and the world will fall into place behind you. When the haters figure out your not being riled by them, they too will get lost in due time. Girls don't try to look like your a fashion model that's what gives you away to the world. Guys stand up tall and be a man, look at other men in the eyes and not the ground that's all it really take's to pass.

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Right On Charlene!!!!

Once out in the world on an everyday basis,you will find that most

don't really pay much attention to you.The biggest worry you carry,

is in your mind.Be yourself,get out and enjoy life,and quit worrying

about how much or if you pass.You will be surprised at the peoples

reactions to you...mostly non reactive.And if/when you do get made/

clocked/whatever,just keep smiling and look right through them.It works.

Angie

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No Evan.

Unless we were totally stealth and looked like the natural women/man that we want to be..the world hates differences..and as long as we are different looking and not conforming to the generally accepted parameters..people will treat as oddities.....human nature..if it were up to the cup cakes we would have been gassed during the Third Reich..so actualy we are fortunate to live under the society we have now..because I don't believe human nanture is benign and loving but actually angry and willing and wanting to punish those that don't conform to their preconceived standards......

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    • Sally Stone
      Post 12   “First Kiss”   It was October 29th, 2003.  My dear friend Willa had purchased tickets for the two of us to attend “Red Hot Halloween,” a public Halloween party held at the Sanctuary in downtown Pittsburgh.  The event was a fund raiser benefitting the Pittsburgh AIDS Task Force.  It was a great cause but it was also the perfect opportunity to let the adventurous side of my feminine persona have a little fun.    My first question to Willa was: “What should I wear?”    “Are you kidding?” She responded.  “This is your opportunity to be the Sally of your dreams.  I suggest you dress to impress.”   My first thought was to dress naughty.  It was Halloween, so it could be the perfect venue for something with an erotic edge to it.  I thought about going as a dominatrix or a naughty French maid.  After we talked about it, and weighed the pros and cons, Willa and I decided against naughty, and instead, chose to wear the fanciest evening gowns we could find.  Willa bought an expensive, silver sequined gown, and matching high-heels just for the event.  Me, on the other hand, I couldn’t justify spending big bucks on an evening gown for a single event, so I took a less expensive route.  It is amazing what you can find on the sale racks at big department stores when you look hard enough.  For a mere 30-dollars, I found a black, sleeveless column gown with matching bolero jacket.  The dress had a slit up the right leg, and it went all the way to my upper thigh, very sexy.  Being a column dress, it was form-fitting, and hugged my curves like a glove.  To complement my dress, I wore black patent high-heel pumps, a long blonde wig, and a set of long red fingernails.  As I recall, it took me three-hours just to do my makeup.  The end result, though, was worth the effort, because I felt like a million bucks.  It’s so obvious, why girls love dressing up – it’s an unbelievable high!   Inside the club it was a sea of bodies and the costumes were amazing.  At one point, I was standing on a balcony that overlooked the dance floor.  I was nursing a cocktail and watching the crowd.  Suddenly, there was a gentleman standing next to me; I didn’t notice his approach.  He told me I looked fabulous and he offered to buy me another drink.  I declined his drink offer, but we struck up a conversation.  Being a little slow, it took me a while to realize he was hitting on me. I never imagined anyone would ever actually be attracted to Sally, which I think contributed to my cluelessness.  So, I was shocked, and initially, a little creeped out as well.  After all, I wasn't into guys, and this was new to me.  As we continued talking, and he kept throwing accolades my way, I went from being uncomfortable to actually being flattered.    The event, being an AIDS fund raiser, had me assuming this guy was hitting on me because he was gay, and he thought I was, as well.  I wanted to set the record straight, so I casually mentioned that I wasn’t gay.  To my amazement, he responded by saying: “neither am I.”  Okay, now what was I supposed to do?  I didn’t want to be rude, but I didn’t want to send the wrong message either.  While I was trying to decide how to tell him I wasn’t interested, he asked if he could kiss me.  Not sure what I was thinking at that moment, I said “okay.”  He kissed me, and as strange as it was, I gave into it, not pulling away or disengaging.  It wasn’t a super passionate kiss, but it was more than a friendly peck on the lips, and I actually enjoyed it.  When we separated; however, I got the sense his passion had cooled.  I could only assume that my response to his kiss sent some kind of message that I wasn’t interested.    Whatever it was he picked up on, it let me off the hook, and I didn’t have to rebuff any further advances.  For this I was grateful, but at the same time, I was actually a little disappointed.  Clearly, I wasn’t going to lead him on, but it was so gratifying to know I had sparked his interest.  Despite his diminished passion, and his obvious realization I wasn’t going to be his girl, he remained the perfect gentleman.  We chatted for a few minutes more, then he gave me the nicest smile.  Again, he commented on how terrific I looked.  Then he added, “maybe I’ll see you later.”    It was hard for me to reconcile how I could have garnered the attention of a man.  In my mind’s eye, I knew my feminine presentation didn’t completely mask my birth sex, so why would a self-proclaimed straight guy actually be interested in me?  Had it been the only time something like this would happen, I would have chalked it up to random chance.  But it wouldn’t be the last time a man would hit on me.  It doesn’t happen often, but it still occurs more than I would have guessed, and I'm always surprised.    I have never asked, but I have always been curious to know my would-be suitor’s motivations.  Were they hitting on me simply because they happened to be fond of trans women, or was their attraction triggered by connecting with my inner woman?  And, however unlikely, did they mistake me for a cis woman?  I guess it really doesn’t matter much one way or the other, because ultimately, I’m not looking for any kind of a relationship.  However, I’d be fibbing if I said I wasn’t at least a little interested in another opportunity to get kissed.   Hugs,   Sally
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