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2 Mtf Friends


Guest AshleyRF

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Guest AshleyRF

Can two MtFs really be friends with one another? I'm not talking about just online friends.. I mean hanging out together and doing things that other women do together on a regular basis. (and I'm not speaking of 2 MtFs that are a couple, I would hope that they would be able to) It seems that recently, I have had the opportunity to meet a few transwomen in the area. I say "opportunity" because none seem all that interested in each other. None of the ones I talk to are friends with any of the other ones... sure we have each other listed as friends on facebook, but we never talk to one another, we never plan a "girls night out" or anything that genetic women tend to do. The FtMs down here are completely the opposite. They hang out with one another, and have all formed a great friendship and brotherhood with one another. What's going on here with us girls? Do we harbor jealousies towards each other because one might pass better than the other... The opposite of that can't be true because I know at least one girl who passes pretty well, yet she does not hide the fact that she is a transwoman. She even does drag shows down here. (when an MtF does drag isn't that like a baseball player being on steroids? :) ) Of course there are some in the state that do not live close to me, and we talk online and on the phone, but we never hang out together....

Is is just me? Is there something wrong with me that causes other MtFs to not want to hang out with me? The FtMs seem to love me down here. I've become great friends with several of them and all of them just adore me. (or so they say) What am I doing wrong? I have plenty of GG friends, but no MtF girlfriends to hang out with.

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Yes Ma'am We Can.

My two best girls are both MTF one pre the other post.

We are not lovers,not attracted in that way,we are only

very good friends that get to experience growing as women

together.I am so very pleased to have both these women

in my life, happy to call them real friends. Plus I love Sue,

truly I do,as only a woman can love another woman whom she

calls her best friend.So yeah Ashley,I think one MTF can be another

ones very close friend.UmmmHmm

Hugs Girl,

Angie

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Guest krisspykriss

I have a few FTM friends. I think there is some cattiness within our social group of ~300 FTMs and CDs though. Out of all of them, I hang out with 2 other FTMs. There are some almost cliques within our group that gets together about every month. You get a large enough group and you have that though whether GG, TG, or just guys.

Anyway, if you think about all the people you know, how many of them are actually close friends you hang with? Being close girlfriends takes more in common than the FTM label. So don't sweat it too much. Having a few close friends is more important than having MTF friends.

hugz

Chrissy

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Guest AshleyRF

I don't see how I could attract any attention.... I've never been called a crossdresser not once, nor gotten any funny looks... so it sure isn't a "fear of being with someone who doesn't pass" thing. It's all of them, even the ones that do not remotely pass and they know they don't... they just don't want to be around other transwomen for whatever reason, or to even talk to each other. It's not a real big deal to me. I just don't understand why it's so much different between the MtFs and the FtMs here. All the FtMs that i've talked to that know any of the MtFs around here say they are all really flaky and are here one day and say they want to be a part of the "community" and then they say you don't here from them for months at a time. I didn't know if it was a worldwide phenomenon or just a local southern transwoman thing. I'm fine without them, perhaps even better as it would not draw that attention towards me for sure but at the same time, it doesn't scare me to hang out with any other ones, attention or not. If my fellow sisters needed it, I would be there for them.

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Can two MtFs really be friends with one another? I'm not talking about just online friends.. I mean hanging out together and doing things that other women do together on a regular basis. (and I'm not speaking of 2 MtFs that are a couple, I would hope that they would be able to) It seems that recently, I have had the opportunity to meet a few transwomen in the area. I say "opportunity" because none seem all that interested in each other. None of the ones I talk to are friends with any of the other ones... sure we have each other listed as friends on facebook, but we never talk to one another, we never plan a "girls night out" or anything that genetic women tend to do. The FtMs down here are completely the opposite. They hang out with one another, and have all formed a great friendship and brotherhood with one another. What's going on here with us girls? Do we harbor jealousies towards each other because one might pass better than the other... The opposite of that can't be true because I know at least one girl who passes pretty well, yet she does not hide the fact that she is a transwoman. She even does drag shows down here. (when an MtF does drag isn't that like a baseball player being on steroids? :) ) Of course there are some in the state that do not live close to me, and we talk online and on the phone, but we never hang out together....

Is is just me? Is there something wrong with me that causes other MtFs to not want to hang out with me? The FtMs seem to love me down here. I've become great friends with several of them and all of them just adore me. (or so they say) What am I doing wrong? I have plenty of GG friends, but no MtF girlfriends to hang out with.

Hi Ashley,

I guess if you are comfortable with the other t woman in terms of having other stuff in common like a regular visit to say the cinema, there should be no relationship

problems but you have got me thinking girl......so, we trans women came from being men (sorry) , and men like to dominate situations / its in their nature, rearing etc.

So we would have adopted a lot of that stuff like it or not when we were growin up ....now, lets suppose some of us hold on (subconsciously) to that male quality and some of us dont, the women who do will probably try to still dominate say a conversion with a t woman who has become more docile and so both become uncomfortable around one another.

Thats just one variable in a minefield of thousands and Im trying to opine on a subject I know so little about, social behavioural science . I will leave it at that as looking for a diffinative answer could turn out to be a bottomless pit . Dont know how any of this sounds Ashley but I do know this , theres a lot to be said for simplicity , ???. Viv.

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Guest Lizzie McTrucker
Can two MtFs really be friends with one another? I'm not talking about just online friends.. I mean hanging out together and doing things that other women do together on a regular basis.

I would love to have a friend like you to hang out with because I don't have many friends who are into the whole 'girl's day' thing and those who are live all over the state so it's not easy to meet up if they live 4 hours away just to hang out at the salon for mani/pedis, ya know?

I do have more GG friends than MTF because the MTFs I know in person are all kinda catty and I'm not really sure why....maybe I had a bad dose of HRT and never grew the catty gene, I dunno.

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This is a fact...

One trans woman can slide on by virtually undetected.

While two together for what ever reason,get made more often.

Really it shouldn't make a difference.If you enjoy the moment

and your time together,not worry about the public,and just be

yourselves,it can be a real life experience you both grow from.

It happened for me with far longer experienced women when I

was first starting RLE.It was seeing her comfort dealing with the

public and how natural she was in her role,that gave me a goal

to aim for.

Angie

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I would love to have a friend like you to hang out with because I don't have many friends who are into the whole 'girl's day' thing and those who are live all over the state so it's not easy to meet up if they live 4 hours away just to hang out at the salon for mani/pedis, ya know?

I do have more GG friends than MTF because the MTFs I know in person are all kinda catty and I'm not really sure why....maybe I had a bad dose of HRT and never grew the catty gene, I dunno.

My girlfriends are polar opposites,

Lauren is as girly girl as I am.We do the beauty salon,get pedicures,go shopping together all

the time.Sit around my place doing our nails or playing with our makeup and hair.While Sue

is a get it done kind of girl.Little makeup,doesn't like to mess with her hair,looks very nice in

her outfits,but could look so much better if she only allowed herself more time to girlify.

For her everything has to be done quick,while we like to take our time.

I am a lucky lady to have my friends.

Angie

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Guest AshleyRF

It's even more than the "hanging out" together thing.. we don't even talk to each other online or anything... We hardly even acknowledge each other. I just don't understand why it is that the FtMs can ALL get along so well together and why we MtFs can't. There has to be a reason behind it.

I just think some of us harbor a lot of jealousy and envy towards each other for various reasons and it dampers our abilities to be friends with each other. Honestly, how can you be friends with someone that you are jealous of? You really can't.

It really makes no difference to me if I'm hanging with GGs, transwomen, GM, or transmen... if I enjoy their company then it's all go to me. I just really find it strange that the MtFs in this area really don't want to have anything to do with other MtFs or even with the "community" at all. Sad, pathetic and kinda selfish of them if you ask me. There are tons of girls out there who could really use the support and guidance of their sisters who have come before them.

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Guest NatalieRene
My girlfriends are polar opposites,

Lauren is as girly girl as I am.We do the beauty salon,get pedicures,go shopping together all

the time.Sit around my place doing our nails or playing with our makeup and hair.While Sue

is a get it done kind of girl.Little makeup,doesn't like to mess with her hair,looks very nice in

her outfits,but could look so much better if she only allowed herself more time to girlify.

For her everything has to be done quick,while we like to take our time.

I am a lucky lady to have my friends.

Angie

It sounds like you have such a wonderful life. I wish I was at that point.

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Guest ChloëC

Ashley,

Reading all these posts, I get a feeling (probably unsupported by reality, but still) that besides other possibilities, it may also be an age and self-confidence issue. Which sort of go together.

If this all was, oh, let's say, 30 years ago, I would have been terrified of posting, and extremely nervous of just lurking here. Now, it's like, I understand enough about myself and I have a desire to explore more and share (as well as realizing that at my age, I'd better do it!). So, dang it, I want to be here. And I'm even considering if I'm in the area of some of the people I've met online, I would like to meet them in person. I'd never have even considered that when I was younger. So often with age comes self-confidence, which the lack of can sometimes show itself as jealousy.

And, it wouldn't surprise me one way or the other if these bad ol' male hormones still coarsing through this bod subtely encourages (or rather discourages) one to strive to make it on one's own. As in, 'I can do this on my own or I've got to do this on my own. I don't need (or want) others.' One additional vestige that needs to be overcome.

That you want and relish companionship for this journey puts you far ahead of the others. At least in my mind. Good for you. With your positive attitude, I'm sure you'll find others. (tho it sounds a little like telling my daughters that they'll find the right guy, easy for me to say)

Chloë

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Guest krisspykriss
I don't see how I could attract any attention.... I've never been called a crossdresser not once, nor gotten any funny looks...

So you just woke up one day and passed? You never went through an awkward stage in your transition? You have never been made?

The answer to your question might lie in the above statement.

Hugz,

Chrissy

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Ashley,

Reading all these posts, I get a feeling (probably unsupported by reality, but still) that besides other possibilities, it may also be an age and self-confidence issue. Which sort of go together.

If this all was, oh, let's say, 30 years ago, I would have been terrified of posting, and extremely nervous of just lurking here. Now, it's like, I understand enough about myself and I have a desire to explore more and share (as well as realizing that at my age, I'd better do it!). So, dang it, I want to be here. And I'm even considering if I'm in the area of some of the people I've met online, I would like to meet them in person. I'd never have even considered that when I was younger. So often with age comes self-confidence, which the lack of can sometimes show itself as jealousy.

And, it wouldn't surprise me one way or the other if these bad ol' male hormones still coarsing through this bod subtely encourages (or rather discourages) one to strive to make it on one's own. As in, 'I can do this on my own or I've got to do this on my own. I don't need (or want) others.' One additional vestige that needs to be overcome.

That you want and relish companionship for this journey puts you far ahead of the others. At least in my mind. Good for you. With your positive attitude, I'm sure you'll find others. (tho it sounds a little like telling my daughters that they'll find the right guy, easy for me to say)

Chloë

Hiya Chloe,

Just read your post /reply to Ashley and it makes a lot more sense than mine , thanks for that as I think I "overcooked" my reply in trying to make

sense of a good question. My ideal solution would be to keep it simple, dont push too hard in any direction /and have you ever noticed ???when things get too

tough for women they have the ability to "surrender" so as to avoid uncomfortable situations, men cant (hormone thing again) they hold on to trouble like a

dog holding on to a bone....you know ?????..If I keep goin on here this post will be as ...eh....overcooked as my first- but I gotta say , the lady did open up

some subject matter....kept me up all night , oh gee, really got me goin there. Love you all on Mondays and twice as much on Sundays, Viv , :) .

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Guest Elizabeth K

Older T-girl checking in here. This is one of the first times I have used that term - the 't-girl' part, grin. I know too well about the older part.

I was curious to read what you wrote and to see others say something about being in the South. I live in New Orleans and it is about as SOUTH as is gets, darlin'. I am originally from Texas asnd know the redneck thang too. Maybe it is where I am in transition (one year real soon) that makes the differenece. I don't know you ladies that well, but Ashley, Angie and Lizzy McT have some of the most magnificent avatars for MTF here on the site. I do well enough but I don't have that type of passability - or I once thought I didn't. Recently I came to know that is not true. And perhaps that is why I now consider myself a full-time woman - a t-girl. These days I pass without trying, and it is so liberating.

No - this is not a me-me-me thing. I was just setting the stage. For whatever reason I have five close MTF friends that I have met and, better yet, hung out with, and we are just like any other friends, we love each other as friends (something much more intense and satisfying than we could as male friends because we can actually 'love' each other). But like all women, there are limitations and conditions to our friendship. I think that is normal. BUT

I do see a little influence of transsexuality on our relationship. My longest friendship goes back to a t-woman I have known for 45 years. She actually was my room-mate in college when we were both male. I also went to high school with her. She was my first mentor and I call her regularly because she has a very small support group. She is four years post op - and lives fulltime to the point she is really stealth. But when I first stared transition I asked if I could come live with her if I had to. She wanted to know if I passed. Later she apologized, but she was concerned about being 'read' if a non-passing transperson was living with her. Now therein may be the answer to some of you question (Fortunately I soon began 'passing' in public pretty well and felt I could move in with her). But her ways bug me! Just like in college, we are great friends - but now as mutual T-girls, it's so much more on different layers. We are not as close as I thought we might be, but it is personalities, not TS-ism.

Secondly - my two dearest friends in the entire world - oh my - maybe in the unniverse - have turned out to be trans. These two t-girls are such a delight to me - and we didn't meet in person for such a long time! AUGGGGGH - but now we know each other and communicate EVERY DAY and sometimes two and three times a day. I will tease you on this a bit by not saying who they are - but look at the top three posters here at Laura's? I would lay down my life for these women. And they taught me - we taught each other - we are women. Maybe there is another part of your answer.

And then there is my hidden T-woman friend who is the daughter of one of my male friends. She is about ten years post FFS and doesn't want SRS. She lives with her mother and I see her when she comes into town. We communicate well, go out to eat when she is here. I would love to go shopping and all but we are separted by distance as she lives several states over. She is twenty years younger but ten years ahead of me in her life experience as a woman. We have this strange relationship in a way because we are both T-girls, and yet she has a social disorder, and has some difficultly transitioning into society. So it shows two people with the same condition might not exactly be close personal friends. If she lived next door to each other I certainly would cultivate that friendship, I think.

Then a GREAT FRIEND! A T-woman in New Orleans - and I just love her. She and I are in similar fields, and I know her through my thersapist. We meet for lunch all the time, but don't email much. We do well, and I would love to socialize with her but she is a work-a-holic. She is also a trans-advocate and has shaken the trees here in New Orleans. Fortunately she has settled down a bit and I know her as a friend I can call on when I am in trouble. We could socialize a bit more but we don't. She is NOT afraid of a newbie transwoman like me. And she is 15 years post op.

Then there are the four MTF in my GLBT group - two are street people and as bit away from where I am, but who were the ones who gave me their phone numbers in the event I needed help. Another is a rough ole gal, someone I would not be friends with in usual circumstances, but someone I know well enough now to ask anything. She is VERY pro-active in the group. This provides my core support except - THREE beutiful T-girls - all about age twenty - in my group. I am so jealous! They have a lifetime as women to look forward to. Thay are just magnificent! BUT they don't socialize with each othe outside the group. I don't know why.

And there are two T-girls my therapist treats near the same time as me. We have met. But we haven't had time to know one another.

BUT I also have T-girl and T-men friends I have never met. Some are on Lauras (you know who you are) - a few are on other sites. One ia an Androgyne friend of mine - I would do ANYTHING for her! Yet I have never kissed her or given her a hug, That's what I want to do - I just can't. She lives as hidden life where I don't fit.

ANd then there are those magnificent men on Laura's! Oh my - makes my heart flutter - such sweet people!

People here at Laura's? Oh my - I know we woud be best friends! And then there is my friend Allison - whom I will meet - whom I will shop with - oh yes.

So I have been blessed with friends. And I have both the MTF and the FTM I know so well. Perhaps it comes down to loving your friends. I never did that well as a male. And I an SO READY to go shopping!

Lizzy

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Guest madelane

Hi all

Viv I do believe that your observations are quite accurate. Unless you start to change or recognise and accept the female in you at a very tender age you ARE going to be conditioned by society and your peers in subtle ways that reinforce your manhood. Things that are difficult to become seld aware of but that other people can spot a long way off. Guys just do not do the shopping together thing and the long ntimate chats and all that goes with feminity and mode of thinking. Even our observations on these matters are tainted by our past 'man' as it where.

But having said all that I also know a few women who reamin women maried with children and all that goes with it who could quite easily pass off as men complete with attitude.

We, I do believe, try to hard to be 'woman' and are prone to steriotype that aspect.

The hanging together or not therefore, as as been pointed out by Elizabeth, is more to do with our past than being a 't' girl.

Hugs

Madelane

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Guest Lizzie McTrucker
It's even more than the "hanging out" together thing.. we don't even talk to each other online or anything... We hardly even acknowledge each other.

This I will agree with. I used to have a number of online MTF friends, some I even met in person and whatnot. I don't talk to any of them online anymore. We just sort of drifted away. I don't know if it's part of going stealth or what. Right now the only TS people I talk to online are you guys and gals and another TS truck driver whos email address was forwarded to me by a mutual friend, but she lives in Oregon. :(

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Guest Donna Jean

Heck, I'd hang with you, GF!

I'd love to have some MTF friends here ....but, rural Ohio? It's easier to see a two headed cow....

I have wonderful friends out of state, but it's not feasible to "hang" with them...

I'd LOVE to ride around with you in that lavender tractor!

Huggs.........

Donna Jean

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When I first saw this topic I thought it should be under entertainment and in the joke forum: "2 MTF friends walk into a bar, you'd think that the second one would have ducked!", but I see that it is a serious discussion.

So it is time to get serious and look deep inside ourselves.

I have always had the types of friends that show up when they are in need but tend to disappear when I need them, I had always wondered why, because I always helped them but I don't believe that I was nearly as open about how much their friendship meant to me.

Therein lies the difference, now I feel very free to express my feelings openly - I could never say, "I love you" to anyone but now, I feel it and say it to everyone, when I sign, "Love ya, Sally" it is not just a signature it is a statement and it comes from the heart.

I have finally learned to love myself for who I am and the people that I meet as Sally can feel that, in male mode for work no matter how hard I try friends are very hard to make because I am not at peace with myself.

You will have to do a little soul searching to see if you are projecting an "I'm better than you attitude" or if the MTFs that you have met are all that insecure - the second is quite possible because it seems that none of them even speak to each other.

In short (A little late for that Sally) you must love yourself not just accept in order to have a friend and you must be a friend before you can have one - reach out and keep trying at some point they just might accept the offer (so be careful to extend to people that you really want as friends).

Love ya,

Sally

(Remember, I mean that!)

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or if the MTFs that you have met are all that insecure - the second is quite possible because it seems that none of them even speak to each other.

Love ya,

Sally

(Remember, I mean that!)

This is very true.It took being unafraid to reach out for me to make friends with other ladies

and that took a couple of years.Some can't get past she is prettier than me,so I wont hang

around with her,mentality.For others it is insecurity with something about themselves.Or I am

so very out going and forward,and they are more reserved and don't like my style.But as with

most all women,there is a competition thing of who is prettier or has nicer hair.Why,who knows

it must be a woman thing.

Angie

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Ashley, hun----my thoughts are that most if not all MtFs have had to deal with a lot of rejection/discrimination and are likely to feel awkward socially and self-conscious. FtMs seem more socially resiliant and willing to put themselves out there, at least in my experience. Have you tried talking one on one with these women and putting it out there you'd like to hang out and be friends and then made a date (not a date-date) but you know what I mean---like a date to go shopping or meet for coffee.

I have a couple of on-line MtF friends and I love to be able to discuss women things, especially talking about men :rolleyes: I live in a rather isolated area 100+ miles from a metro area and there are no groups locally for us. Some of you might shudder at this but I put an ad on Craigslist to meet other transwomen--I know this can be risky, but I actually got a response from another transwoman who lives 30 minutes away from me. We have been emailing back and forth and agreed to meet for coffee in a public place later today. She wants help with her "look" which I love to do. (She has natural long blonde hair I am dying to fix for her!) We found we had things in common right off the bat---her mother was a high fashion designer and my mother was a runway model.

I have one t-girl friend and we have had fun shopping. She is tall and willowy and I love picking out outfits for her.

ricka

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Guest AshleyRF
So you just woke up one day and passed? You never went through an awkward stage in your transition? You have never been made?

The answer to your question might lie in the above statement.

Hugz,

Chrissy

Can't say that I have actually.. not that I was aware of anyway. I, for whatever reason, even prior to transition or even trying to present female was often taken for female. Have had that "problem" all my life actually. Why? I don't know.. Personally, I don't think I look feminine at all. My statement was not out of arrogance, just simply stating a fact.

Of course I went through an awkward stage in my transition. Unless you transition at 7, I'm pretty sure we all do. I'm not talking about ones who "just transitioned" here. I'm talking about ones who have been doing it for years.

I'm not the only one in this area that has brought this up. Several FtMs I know from here feel the same way about the MtFs. They talk about how you can't ever count on them for anything. You plan support groups and they show one month and you don't see them again for 6 months, then they all of a sudden show up again.

(this is exactly my point about 2 MtFs being friend... cattiness. We are all guilty of it. Myself not excluded. Rereading my post I can see how it could come across like that. And perhaps, depending on my mood at the time I wrote it, I might have even somewhat meant it that way.)

hugs

Ash

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Guest krisspykriss
Can't say that I have actually.. not that I was aware of anyway. I, for whatever reason, even prior to transition or even trying to present female was often taken for female. Have had that "problem" all my life actually. Why? I don't know.. Personally, I don't think I look feminine at all. My statement was not out of arrogance, just simply stating a fact.

Of course I went through an awkward stage in my transition. Unless you transition at 7, I'm pretty sure we all do. I'm not talking about ones who "just transitioned" here. I'm talking about ones who have been doing it for years.

I'm not the only one in this area that has brought this up. Several FtMs I know from here feel the same way about the MtFs. They talk about how you can't ever count on them for anything. You plan support groups and they show one month and you don't see them again for 6 months, then they all of a sudden show up again.

(this is exactly my point about 2 MtFs being friend... cattiness. We are all guilty of it. Myself not excluded. Rereading my post I can see how it could come across like that. And perhaps, depending on my mood at the time I wrote it, I might have even somewhat meant it that way.)

hugs

Ash

I believe you. Do you think maybe the other girls are jealous, or perhaps see you as someone who doesn't understand many of their issues because of this?

BTW, that was one of the was my comment could have been interpreted. I left it short, simple and open to interpretation for a reason. It was not meant to be catty, but I could see it being taken that way.

hugz,

Chrissy

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Guest AshleyRF
I believe you. Do you think maybe the other girls are jealous, or perhaps see you as someone who doesn't understand many of their issues because of this?

BTW, that was one of the was my comment could have been interpreted. I left it short, simple and open to interpretation for a reason. It was not meant to be catty, but I could see it being taken that way.

hugz,

Chrissy

I honestly don't know.. That's why I asked if maybe it was me. I still understand the issues.. Do you not think I'm insecure? Trust me, I am. I honestly don't believe that I pass and that I've just been fortunate enough that everyone I see every day is just being nice and when I leave they are like "OMG, that was totally a trans person". Basically, I don't think I draw attention to myself because I don't dress flashy or showy in any way... I just try to blend in and wear normal every day stuff.

I try to make myself approachable to others... at least I think I am anyway. The FtMs don't have a problem hanging with me. like I said, they seem to love me.

I was just unsure if it's like this with us MtFs everywhere or is it just a Mississippi transwoman thing.

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Guest Lizzie McTrucker
I honestly don't believe that I pass and that I've just been fortunate enough that everyone I see every day is just being nice and when I leave they are like "OMG, that was totally a trans person".

Wow, I'm the exact same way. :mellow:

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Guest Kassidy
My girlfriends are polar opposites,

Lauren is as girly girl as I am.We do the beauty salon,get pedicures,go shopping together all

the time.Sit around my place doing our nails or playing with our makeup and hair.While Sue

is a get it done kind of girl.Little makeup,doesn't like to mess with her hair,looks very nice in

her outfits,but could look so much better if she only allowed herself more time to girlify.

For her everything has to be done quick,while we like to take our time.

I am a lucky lady to have my friends.

Angie

forget someone angie?

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  • Posts

    • Lydia_R
      This internet video thing is pretty amazing.  I'd call it Zoom, but there are other platforms out there.  I prefer Zoom over Teams because Zoom puts me and everyone else in the same picture.  I like seeing the whole group in one shot.  Teams of course is about having so many people that you can't get them in the shot, or is it?   Just saying that I have never met any of my counselors in person.  Doctors, of course I have and I am lucky there.  They are 3.5 miles from my house as is the main transgender surgery place in town.  I've been doing virtual visits with the medical doctors lately though.  It feels like once I became steady state, they don't need to interact with me physically that much.  I have enjoyed going into their office in my nice clothing.
    • awkward-yet-sweet
      I guess a lot depends on where you start and where you wanna end up.  For me, doing the "boy form" thing has come with disadvantages.  Smaller skeleton, thinner bones, and skinny/tiny everything.  I'll never be taken seriously.  I guess the advantage is that my way of blending in is just kind of confusing.  "Mommy, is that a boy or a girl?"    One of the biggest arguments for starting transition early in life is I think it gives a person a greater ability to pass.  My two MtF friends started early, and pass really well.  They never got to the larger bone structure, beard, deep voice stuff.  Me being intersex (which is more complicated) and not getting around to "boy form" until my 30's, my body size and features were pretty much set in stone.      You're lucky.  Some folks pay all that and more, even AFTER insurance.  One of my friends faced the choice last year - pay for her final year of college or pay for her meds.  She's taken a year off from college to work and save up money to finish.    My medical expenses have been more injury-related than therapy or medication   The state covered some of it with a fund for crime victims, insurance covered a lot, but there's ended up being a few thousand dollars spent out-of-pocket since 2022 to put me back together again.  I've never found a decent therapist, but my husband has a psych degree among other things, so I figure talking with him is almost as good.  I do have a good doctor, although I have to drive a long way to a big city to see her.  Mostly she takes a basic look at me, and writes another year's prescription.  Since I'm non-op and only using testosterone cream for a localized effect, its pretty simple stuff. 
    • Lydia_R
      I'm a tracker and I've paid for 100% of my transition costs out of pocket.  Counseling was a huge, huge part of my transition and well worth my money.  Not to be uppity about all of this.  I'm just sharing information I have because I have it and it may be useful for others.  Here is my analysis of my spending on transition over the last 2.5 years:   Medical Doctors and Blood Draws: $2,397 Counseling: $3,800 Medications (brand name): $2,702.85 Medications (generic): $485.39 Total: $9,385.24   I picked up on the internet early in transition that transition is a consumer activity.  I tend to agree with that.   This year (Jan - May 18th, 2024), I've spent: Medical Doctors: $102 Medications: $241.52 Total: $343.52   So I'm on a much more sustainable path with it.  I'm pretty happy with where I am with it, although I do still desire surgery and am nervous about how that will all unfold.  But my doctors have me on this steady state thing.  I could seek out other medications, but what I'm doing is good enough.  Oh, I'm missing something....  I did a bunch of electrolysis that didn't appear to have any effect.  I've always enjoyed shaving and I use pink shaving cream now (I've got some lipstick blond in me).  It's good enough.  Not sure if I'll do electro or laser in the future.  The need to shave my body has become less and less.  Before HRT, I was shaving my body weekly or even every 5 days.  Now it is more like 2-3 weeks.  Everyone's body hair is different.  My beard is very coarse and stiff while my body hair has been somewhat minimal and light.  It's nice to have smooth legs and not have to shave as much.   Counseling was $200/session.  I tried one or two counselors before I found one who resonated with where I really was.  When I was prescribed HRT, I didn't fill the prescription until 4 months later.  I had to take some time to decide that I really wanted to take on that lifetime financial commitment.  And of course the possibly negative health consequences too, but I think I was actually thinking more about the finances of it all.  Maybe 51%.   I did a lot of work to revitalize my career before jumping into medical transition.  I started counseling 3 months before I got the best paying job of my life.  The pressure of wanting to transition was so great that I couldn't wait any longer.  She was coming out.  Even though I had very little money, I splurged on some nice dresses and a full length mirror and then started counseling.  Sometimes you just have to move forward and hope for the best.  Other times it is better to wait and do some hard work.  The grace of it all..
    • Ivy
      And when the pressure is released it sucks in heat.  I had a regulator leaking and it was covered with ice.  It's how a heat pump works as well.   Why do they always pick names like this?  It's like the exact opposite of what it really is. I hate politics so much.  But I still have to follow it.
    • Lydia_R
      Wonderful!  This reminds me of a discussion I had with my brother a decade ago.  I said that things expand when they get hotter.  He said, no, they expand when they get colder.  And I had to think about that for a while.  The weird thing is that H20 is special in that when it reaches freezing, it expands.   The pressure makes the cold and then we see the condensation.
    • KatieSC
      I used to have a really good therapist, however, she does not accept health insurance reimbursement fees as they are too low. I had to pay 130 per session. When she decided to jack the rates to 185 per hour, I cut bait. Without a doubt, counseling is very helpful. What concerns me greatly is that we are a vulnerable population. Unfortunately, we can easily be targeted for some pretty high fees. How many of us have been in the situation where our healthcare provider, surgeons, or counselors, have required cash payments? We get jammed as well by the health insurance companies as they often will not pay for items that could be essential to our well-being. It is my contention that our chances of being targeted for violence, death, or harassment, go up when we cannot easily blend in with the female population.    For those of us that are MTF, some of us are blessed with more feminine features, and many of us are not. We get the whammy of a larger skeleton, bigger hands, bigger feet, a beard, a deep voice, and masculine face. It takes a lot for some of us to be able to blend in. My belief is that the better we blend in, the better chance we have of not being targeted. In this, electrolysis, facial feminizing/gender affirming facial surgery, voice/speech therapy with voice feminization/gender affirming voice surgery, and body contouring are all potentially lifesaving. Unfortunately, many of the insurance companies deem the procedures as cosmetic, and yet there is no cosmetic that fixes all of these issues.    If you pay your money, you can get anything you want in this world. The sad reality is that for us, many of these procedures would enhance our lives tremendously, yet we face ongoing battles with our very existence. Yeah, an empathetic therapist helps, but is it just the concept of reasonable empathy at a reasonable cost? When my therapist jacked her rates to 185 per hour, I said enough is enough. Your mileage may vary.
    • awkward-yet-sweet
      I don't think the temperature matters as much.  Think about how gases like CO2 are stored in cylinders, and they are basically the same in summer or winter.  Any gas becomes liquid under enough pressure.  What does matter is the strength of the pressure vessel.  If exposed to excess external heat, pressure increases and can burst a tank or a pipe.  Household propane tanks are often painted white or silver and have safety release valves, because sunlight can heat a tank enough to cause a significant increase in internal pressure, even though the contents remain liquid. 
    • awkward-yet-sweet
      It has been a long week, and I think this weekend is going to be pretty busy.  The high school is having their graduation later today.  Although we don't have any grads in our family this year, my husband is going because he's involved with the school.  And tonight there's the torchlight ceremony for the county cadets who are finishing their program, and the reading of assignments for the new seniors.  One of my stepkids will be a senior this year.  She's talented, and will be assigned a squad leader position.  My husband is really proud of her, and she's well-liked by her peers even though she's very quiet and serious.    I might get to go on a trip to Texas this week.  The storms that hit Houston caused a lot of electrical damage, so no doubt the utilities in that area will be ordering stuff from my husband's company.  When the big hurricane hit Florida in 2022, we made several trips there with badly-needed equipment, and the entire transportation department was involved in the first convoy.  When he travels, I usually want to go along, since 1-on-1 time is kind of rare for us. 
    • Mmindy
    • Lydia_R
      Maybe surface tension?   I was in a political debate yesterday and it got way too focused on social stuff and I just had to steer the conversation back to how natural gas transitions to a liquid under pressure.  One of the people I was debating had a career working in that field and it was a good opportunity to expose stuff like that.  He mentioned that it isn't just pressure, it is temperature too.  So then I mentioned how the lines are running underground and asked how that played a role in it.  He came back saying that natural gas is a liquid under pressure.  I guess I didn't get a straight answer on that, but it did move my thinking one step down the road.  Perhaps I should have been more direct with him and asked him at what temperature and pressure.  Is there a chart?   I feel people would be better off if they paid more attention to the objects in their environment instead of focusing on some of the things that we hear so much of in the news.  People are pretty clueless as to how much trigonometry plays a role in so many things in our society.  Even land surveyors don't really use it anymore because programmers locked it away in a function.  Much like how cascading style sheets (CSS) is a wrapper for math.  I wonder what former president Trump thinks about all of that?  He must have some knowledge of how his buildings are constructed, right?  There certainly is a part of me that thinks he is just putting on a show about all of this.  Perhaps I'm wrong though.  All kinds of people in the world.
    • Jani
      Me as well.  I can use my left hand for many tasks though.
    • Jani
      Hello Jennifer and welcome back.  I find New England to be a great place to live.  I have a number of acquaintances and friends in Maine and I love the state.  It seems you are doing well.     Hugs,  Jani
    • MirandaB
      Oh, my "maybe this person is an egg" story is the (male presenting) piercing person and I discussed body hair removal methods, he says he doesn't want any hair except on his head, which is what I said during a couple hair removal sessions before and just after the egg cracked.     
    • Karen Carey
      I, too, am lucky.  Here in the UK I have a great therapist, a fully supportive GP, and a psychiatrist and endo who look after me and my needs.  I found the therapist on Psychology Today.
    • Lydia_R
      Over the last few years of being on this site and going through medical transition, I've come to own the M->F identification.  Funny, I made a typo of M->T.  It is a curiosity if I'll ever put Gender: Female on this site.  It is my intention to be there someday.   Right now, because of career stuff and a high stress event with an electric hair clipper last fall, I'm feeling much more masculine than I would like.  I think that once I make some decent headway with my third career, I'll settle into a more feminine feeling.   I never really considered gender very much.  I certainly always used a feminine appearance as my presentation goal. I think that when I was young, I briefly had the idea of transitioning, but I convinced myself quickly that medical transition would be a bad outcome, so I put all those feelings and ideas in the closet for decades.  I'm still very apprehensive about medical transition.  I've always taken health to be a high priority for me.  I wrote a book last December about my fears of it all and my conclusion ultimately is that sometimes there is more to life than being a pillar of health.  It's important to take some chances if that is where your heart takes you.
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