Dysphoria Below Decks

[Guest sebastiank]

ps: True, though, I hardly have any breast naturally, and it's not really noticeable when I wear a t-shirt so I can understand that having visible breast can cause a lot of discomfort....

But still I think showing the real testicles is exactly not to suck up to below decks dysphoria and I saying: "whatever".

It is too easy to fall into a spiral of desiring more and more male attributes--and this can be endless.... while life goes by.

[Guest My_Genesis]

Oh dude I know exactly what you mean. I'm terrified of transitioning because I know I'll never be 'perfect' and weirdly that scares me even more than spending my life as a woman. Part of the anxiety is that I'm a gay man, and I can't imagine a gay man wanting to be with me because I wouldn't be a 'true' gay man. Probably silly to think that way and I know plenty of pre-op and post-op transmen in good relationships but I can't help worrying.

But it's not weird at all. I think a lot of people have these kinds of fears.

Exactly! I've been worried about that for awhile now. I've actually known I'm trans for most of my life, at least since I knew what a "sex change" was I knew I wanted one, but I went into denial b/c it's easier to just not be trans than to deal with the idea of not ever being complete. I've only decided a few months ago that I have to transition. But my biggest concern, if not my only concern, is that I will become more lower-half dysphoric after being on T. Especially with the increased libido being involved

I also hope that one day the technology will improve and we can be complete. I get tired of feeling like I'm sitting around waiting though, rather than just living my life....

[Guest hayden_jude]

Oh dude I know exactly what you mean. I'm terrified of transitioning because I know I'll never be 'perfect' and weirdly that scares me even more than spending my life as a woman. Part of the anxiety is that I'm a gay man, and I can't imagine a gay man wanting to be with me because I wouldn't be a 'true' gay man. Probably silly to think that way and I know plenty of pre-op and post-op transmen in good relationships but I can't help worrying.

But it's not weird at all. I think a lot of people have these kinds of fears.

I feel exactly the same way. I am a gay man too, and I have these same fears. But it's a double-edged sword, because I know that if I do transition, I might never find love & happiness with another man for these reasons, but if I don't transition, I will never find love & happiness with anyone because of my issues with physical intimacy. I could never be loved as a woman. And I know this. So it's like Remus said, being stuck between a rock & a hard place.

[Guest UnicornGiggles]

Exactly! I've been worried about that for awhile now. I've actually known I'm trans for most of my life, at least since I knew what a "sex change" was I knew I wanted one, but I went into denial b/c it's easier to just not be trans than to deal with the idea of not ever being complete. I've only decided a few months ago that I have to transition. But my biggest concern, if not my only concern, is that I will become more lower-half dysphoric after being on T. Especially with the increased libido being involved

I also hope that one day the technology will improve and we can be complete. I get tired of feeling like I'm sitting around waiting though, rather than just living my life....

I feel exactly the same way. I am a gay man too, and I have these same fears. But it's a double-edged sword, because I know that if I do transition, I might never find love & happiness with another man for these reasons, but if I don't transition, I will never find love & happiness with anyone because of my issues with physical intimacy. I could never be loved as a woman. And I know this. So it's like Remus said, being stuck between a rock & a hard place.

Well it's nice to have people with you when you're stuck

[Guest Evan_J]

I find I no longer wish to accept my "below decks" dysphoria. Dysphoria is there.... but why? Wasn't it the misogyny that this society is full of what, in part, had installed this dysphoria in me? Making a person feel that having female parts is shameful or bad (all the ads in the media promoting the image of women not being clean enough, selling scented tampons, perfumes, etc, "very *friendly* person shaming" that is so popular in the media and among the general public, ageism and discrimination specifically directed at women, discrimination in my Engineering school, "rape culture" and "hookup culture", etc, etc).

You know what? I'm not going to feel the dysphoria anymore and I'm going to tell myself to cut it.

Cause guess what I was born with what I was born with, it's natural and I (and others) better accept it--doesn't mean I have to use it--but I'm not gonna hate it just cause the hateful, conservative society views everything through a lens of gender binary and shoves misogynist information on me everywhere.

Having these girly parts downstairs doesn't make me weak, or incapable--I've got more testicles than most biomales I run across (from their own testimony)--real testicles are located in the brain and not in the underwear.

I'm starting to feel that I'm acting like a coward by giving in to below decks dysphoria and trying to live after others not after myself by giving into penis envy. Cause what's in my pants doesn't define me.

Even though society does sell (whether any of us buy or not) that girl parts are "less", "weaker" , even "shameful", I don't think (at least I hope not) that the majority of FtMs don't want them because of those reasons. In the event that that was what was behind wanting the meta or the phallo I would say counseling was in order before any other transition related decision should be made. Those are issues of feeling secondary due to sex. And yes, I would call desiring a penis only because of those things "penis envy"; believing that obtaining the penis will release you from the state. As I said , I hope that that is not what the majority of FtMs feel. For me its that "all the other men will be made/fashioned 'x' way, I want to be the same". And yeah, that includes (in my perfect world) to have the save abilities with it sexually and sensately.

[Guest My_Genesis]

Even though society does sell (whether any of us buy or not) that girl parts are "less", "weaker" , even "shameful", I don't think (at least I hope not) that the majority of FtMs don't want them because of those reasons. In the event that that was what was behind wanting the meta or the phallo I would say counseling was in order before any other transition related decision should be made. Those are issues of feeling secondary due to sex. And yes, I would call desiring a penis only because of those things "penis envy"; believing that obtaining the penis will release you from the state. As I said , I hope that that is not what the majority of FtMs feel. For me its that "all the other men will be made/fashioned 'x' way, I want to be the same". And yeah, that includes (in my perfect world) to have the save abilities with it sexually and sensately.

I agree with Evan. Very well put.

[Guest sebastiank]

What I specifically meant is if, say, I was born with the hand that only had 3 fingers, not 5, I wouldn't hate it. I actually would try to even love it.

May be society would try to tell me to hate it cause it's "ugly" or "imperfect", but I still wouldn't hate it.

When below decks dysphoria gets the intensity of hatred towards own body parts, I think this is something a person should fight with. I guess what I was trying to say is that society tries to tell people that there's only black and white and male and female genitalia (while there're intersexed people, crossdressers (no-op transsexuals who are happy about their downstairs equipment, etc, etc) and that if you have female genitalia it somehow defines who you are--while it is not, really. I mean if a person was born and lived outside the society... they wouldn't come to hate certain parts of their body--it all is developed from external information and a message that if you have certain body parts, you have to conform to a complex set of behaviors and rules (for females). Rather than hating my "stuff" I chose to hate society.

[Guest sebastiank]

Even though society does sell (whether any of us buy or not) that girl parts are "less", "weaker" , even "shameful", I don't think (at least I hope not) that the majority of FtMs don't want them because of those reasons. In the event that that was what was behind wanting the meta or the phallo I would say counseling was in order before any other transition related decision should be made. Those are issues of feeling secondary due to sex. And yes, I would call desiring a penis only because of those things "penis envy"; believing that obtaining the penis will release you from the state. As I said , I hope that that is not what the majority of FtMs feel. For me its that "all the other men will be made/fashioned 'x' way, I want to be the same". And yeah, that includes (in my perfect world) to have the save abilities with it sexually and sensately.

Yeah in ideal world it would be nice to have all these abilities including male kind of nerve wiring "downstairs".... in the real world... what I personally found to be very *rip my boner* experience is attitudes towards non-natural equipment coming from gay males.. it was very off-putting, to the point I don't care anymore what I have in my pants at all. Might have absolutely nothing there as well, that's fine with me.

[Guest My_Genesis]

What I specifically meant is if, say, I was born with the hand that only had 3 fingers, not 5, I wouldn't hate it. I actually would try to even love it.

May be society would try to tell me to hate it cause it's "ugly" or "imperfect", but I still wouldn't hate it.

When below decks dysphoria gets the intensity of hatred towards own body parts, I think this is something a person should fight with. I guess what I was trying to say is that society tries to tell people that there's only black and white and male and female genitalia (while there're intersexed people, crossdressers (no-op transsexuals who are happy about their downstairs equipment, etc, etc) and that if you have female genitalia it somehow defines who you are--while it is not, really. I mean if a person was born and lived outside the society... they wouldn't come to hate certain parts of their body--it all is developed from external information and a message that if you have certain body parts, you have to conform to a complex set of behaviors and rules (for females). Rather than hating my "stuff" I chose to hate society.

I see your point, but how would you explain the fact that ever since I was about 2-3 yrs old and discovered what a penis is, I wanted one? I don't think at that age I had a very good understanding of societal constructs. It was in my mind, biological. Came from inside me, not my external environment. At least that's what I think.

[Guest sebastiank]

I see your point, but how would you explain the fact that ever since I was about 2-3 yrs old and discovered what a penis is, I wanted one? I don't think at that age I had a very good understanding of societal constructs. It was in my mind, biological. Came from inside me, not my external environment. At least that's what I think.

I'm not saying that all of that is coming from societal constructs. Societal constructs act as a great amplifier though, I believe.

Here's my argument: let's say I was born with a deformed hand and at age 2-3 discovered that my hand is not what I'd like it to be and is not functional the way I need it to. What I mean is that the feeling of hatred towards own body part is unjustified (not the desire to change things, if possible). For me it was very inspiring to see a notorious case of a man from Asia with a very debilitating (and gross) skin disease (Western doctors took up to cure him)--he looked horrible and wasn't fully functional, lost a lot of his arm/leg function already, but the smile that radiated from his face had shown that the condition did not cripple him mentally or emotionally. I had experienced permanent one-sided facial paralysis, and eventually, a person learns to cope with things and not be bothered by things like that.... But if, say, society, kept pointing out to me how bad my face is, my dysphoria about the face could reach a high intensity and my life could have become miserable.

I think the strength of dysphoria towards gentialia is created by the fact that this has to do with reproduction and since it is one of the most "basic instincs" it makes a person feel that they can not fulfill their biological role. In my view, it's 50-50: biological and societal influence.

[Guest Lelouch]

@sebastiank

When I think about it, I feel that for me it's mostly biological. The reason why I want a penis and testicles is so that I can be a biological father. If I could be one without it, I wouldn't mind as much. That's what causes my dysphoria.

[Remus]

Mmm yep, for me it's far more biological than societal. There *is* a degree of not being accepted as a 'real' man by society, I can't and won't deny that. As I said before, I am indeed scared of how/if gay cismen will accept me, but that is not all of it. I myself (despite the name ), and I'm fairly sure most of us here, don't go around greeting people the way dogs do and interacting according to what we find down there. Even whilst giving a one-finger salute I can count on one hand the number of people I know for a fact to have what society generally attributes them (my family members and a friend from dancing, just fyi), and so I know that, regardless of the whole "the bigger, the better and manlier you are" that society tries to brainwash our poor cisbrothers with, it *really* doesn't matter, 'cause no-one (usually) checks, and even when wearing a budgie-smuggler you can fudge the details.

So while there *is* an element of social pressure there, for me, the far, far greater (not that there's anything particularly great about it) part is biological -

Apologies for any/all ensuing repetitions of anything I've said earlier and/or (though most likely and) imagination-scarring TMI...

...dah da dah da dah, nothing particularly great about it, etc. etc...

...far greater part of the below decks dysphoria for me is biological - I want to be able to father children, jerk off in the shower, not think about how hot something is and be glad I don't have an inconvenient erection only to remember I'll never have one, move inside someone, receive a BJ, donate sperm, be able to throw the empty Red Bull bottle into the backseat of the car on the way to work rather than keep it between my legs because it feels empty otherwise...

You get the idea. (Actually, I suspect most of you probably know at least some of aforementioned delightful examples from your own experiences (or angstifying lack thereof), most other thoughts and feelings here seem pretty universal ). It won't ever happen, any of it, and I know I need to accept that and move on, but just because you usher the dust bunnies under the bed doesn't mean they're gone. And I'm scared that if I don't get over it, as My_Genesis, UnicornGiggles and Hayden have said, by the time I'm on T (assuming I do it, of course) said dust bunnies will have bred and turned into Beasts of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh... *sigh*

[Guest AndrewH]

The lack of acceptable surgeries was one of the reasons I decided years ago to just learn to live as I am. To forget about transitioning. To learn to enjoy walking around feeling like I am in drag. (and sometimes I do, more so than I used to) I know that isn't the answer for everyone though.

It does still bother me sometimes even though I have come a long way toward accepting my body. Sometimes I'll be out walking and just realise that something is MISSING in my pants. Like an empty place, a hole that can't properly be filled or fixed. My partner has asked me about this. He likes that I have the mind of a guy but in a feminine body but has asked me several times before "Do you wish you had a penis?" and my answer is yes. I do.

I still don't think, at this point in my life, if perfect surgery were available I would take it. I think I have learned to be ok enough with who I am and happy most of the time but I know for sure that if it had been available when I was 18 - 20 I would have a penis and would be living as a man right now.

[Guest hayden_jude]

...far greater part of the below decks dysphoria for me is biological - I want to be able to father children, jerk off in the shower, not think about how hot something is and be glad I don't have an inconvenient erection only to remember I'll never have one, move inside someone, receive a BJ, donate sperm, be able to throw the empty Red Bull bottle into the backseat of the car on the way to work rather than keep it between my legs because it feels empty otherwise...

You get the idea. (Actually, I suspect most of you probably know at least some of aforementioned delightful examples from your own experiences (or angstifying lack thereof), most other thoughts and feelings here seem pretty universal ). It won't ever happen, any of it, and I know I need to accept that and move on, but just because you usher the dust bunnies under the bed doesn't mean they're gone. And I'm scared that if I don't get over it, as My_Genesis, UnicornGiggles and Hayden have said, by the time I'm on T (assuming I do it, of course) said dust bunnies will have bred and turned into Beasts of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh... *sigh*

See, this is what I'm talking about. This is exactly how I feel. I want all of these things as well, and it's so, so, so painfully, agonizingly depressing to know that it will never, ever happen. At least not with the current surgery options. So thank you, Remus, for wording it well (again). I know that I need to accept that as well, but I'm not sure how to go about doing that, so what I'm left with is this awful trans dysphoric hell. Just...ugh.

The thing is, though, that I have been trained to be a survivor. I have never attempted suicide. I've thought about it, but never attempted it. Because there is this indelible little ever-hopeful, ever-optimistic part of me that knows that things will get better. Sometimes that gets annoying, actually, and I know it gets annoying as advice - everyone gets tired of hearing "oh, just trudge on, there are better things ahead." But the truth is that there is no other way to live. You trudge on through th bad things. Especially the things you can't change. Like this. There is a part in one of my favorite books where the author is talking about the opening of the Mary Tyler Moore show, how she picks up the meat at the supermarket, looks at the price, rolls her eyes, shrugs, throws the meat in her cart, and moves on. And he applies this to his life. He says, "Do I wish that things were different? Sure. But *roll of the eyes* what are you gonna do about it? *Shrug* You throw the meat in your cart and you move on." And so whether it's by extreme powers of denial or just some kind of almost-masochistic resolve, this is how I live. Maybe it'll work for you too. You accept the pain, you feel it, you understand it - but you don't allow it to consume you. You shove it safely away in a drawer, with all the rest of your dust-bunnies and you move on....Sigh.

And now for something entirely different!

The lack of acceptable surgeries was one of the reasons I decided years ago to just learn to live as I am. To forget about transitioning. To learn to enjoy walking around feeling like I am in drag. (and sometimes I do, more so than I used to) I know that isn't the answer for everyone though.

It does still bother me sometimes even though I have come a long way toward accepting my body. Sometimes I'll be out walking and just realise that something is MISSING in my pants. Like an empty place, a hole that can't properly be filled or fixed. My partner has asked me about this. He likes that I have the mind of a guy but in a feminine body but has asked me several times before "Do you wish you had a penis?" and my answer is yes. I do.

I still don't think, at this point in my life, if perfect surgery were available I would take it. I think I have learned to be ok enough with who I am and happy most of the time but I know for sure that if it had been available when I was 18 - 20 I would have a penis and would be living as a man right now.

Sometimes I wish that I could feel this way. That I could just accept who I am, accept my body, understand that they will never match up, and live my life as a female anyway. But it's just not that simple for me. For me, it isn't just wanting a penis. It's a whole host of other issues, like my intimacy issues & my social issues....It's not just my body. Being a "girl" affects the way I function. I cannot enter a relationship as a girl. I cannot stand the idea of being perceived as a girl. So it's complicated, and I know I can't just forget about transitioning. But I am glad it works for you.

[Guest UnicornGiggles]

Aaah yes, all of this so sadly true for me too

I need a hug but my cat is in the garden v.v

[Guest AndrewH]

Yeah I know Hayden, that is why I said that I know what I am doing just does NOT work for everyone.

And it is much more complicated for me too than just wanting to have a penis. It would be nice if it were that simple. I am doing well and have made great strides, but it isn't simple and it is definitely not always easy.

I'm not sure quite how to put it all into words right now though.

[Guest My_Genesis]

...far greater part of the below decks dysphoria for me is biological - I want to be able to father children, jerk off in the shower, not think about how hot something is and be glad I don't have an inconvenient erection only to remember I'll never have one, move inside someone, receive a BJ, donate sperm, be able to throw the empty Red Bull bottle into the backseat of the car on the way to work rather than keep it between my legs because it feels empty otherwise...

Same here. Couldn't have said it better myself.

You get the idea. (Actually, I suspect most of you probably know at least some of aforementioned delightful examples from your own experiences (or angstifying lack thereof), most other thoughts and feelings here seem pretty universal ). It won't ever happen, any of it, and I know I need to accept that and move on, but just because you usher the dust bunnies under the bed doesn't mean they're gone. And I'm scared that if I don't get over it, as My_Genesis, UnicornGiggles and Hayden have said, by the time I'm on T (assuming I do it, of course) said dust bunnies will have bred and turned into Beasts of Aaaaarrrrrrggghhh... *sigh*

The way I deal with it (though not very helpful) is I keep telling myself it will happen. Someday we will have the perfect surgeries. i don't want to do the whole "just throw the meat in the cart" thing and feel like I can't change it. I want to be able to change it. Part of my interest in the sciences is I want to help find the "perfect surgery" for us after college. Because if no one else is going to change it, I'll feel compelled to do something about it and not just accept something and tell myself it cannot be changed.

[Guest sebastiank]

Oh wow, I'd never want to father (or mother--god forbids!) children... Never, I'd rather die. This idea is just way too weird for me. And with my disdain for bodily fluids I'm afraid I don't care for having sperm at all... less cleanup and worries about child support payments and STDs. I learned not to even care what's between my legs, frankly... what's a point.

The thing about penis is I wonder if a person grew up without ever learning that they exist (or even ever seeing any biomales) would there still be as much dysphoria? It probably would be way milder... I notice the more time I spend around biomales, the worse my dysphoria is, so I try not to spend any time around them at all. I'm even thinking of quitting the gym and working out at home.

[Guest hayden_jude]

Yeah I know Hayden, that is why I said that I know what I am doing just does NOT work for everyone.

And it is much more complicated for me too than just wanting to have a penis. It would be nice if it were that simple. I am doing well and have made great strides, but it isn't simple and it is definitely not always easy.

I'm not sure quite how to put it all into words right now though.

I hope you didn't take offense at my reply. That wasn't how I meant it at all. I just meant that sometimes I wish I could remain in my female body & be happy that way, but I know that isn't going to work for me. It sounds like you are a much stronger person than I am for being able to make those strides.

[Remus]

sometimes I wish I could remain in my female body & be happy that way, but I know that isn't going to work for me.

Oh, how I've wished for that! I keep hoping that something in my brain will click and accept it and I'll be able to get over it all, but I know from all the angst and stuff that that's just not going to happen for me either. Gah, dysphoric depression gets very boring after a while.

[Guest Lelouch]

I feel the same way at times. But something in me just can't accept it.

[Remus]

Yes, usually it feels pretty surreal and like it can't possibly be true. Every so often, though (and increasingly, recently) if I make the epically stupid mistake to actually stop and think about it, then realisation dawns like an icy-cold bucket of water down your back, a speeding steamroller through your chest and London pea-soup fog in your mind all at once. At least for me, anyway. And people wonder why I drink so much caffeine...

[Guest sebastiank]

Another reason why I doubt I want to use T prescription is because apparently the more T you inject, the more you have to worry about cancer and other problems with female junk downstairs--that's NOT what I'm looking for, for sure, to have check ups by doctors--I haven't done any in forever and have no desire to have any in the future. Well as I was told by my doc, taking T will make check-ups necessary cause of the increased risks... That's like the opposite of what I'm aiming for. Now, I can have a surgery to remove it all... which I don't have money for. Anyway, surgery carries risks of complications, such as fistula (non-healing hole in the bladder)--being athletic as I am, the last thing I need is to be incapacitated for a long time.... not very manly in my book. Plus, if I have ovaries removed and later develop complications from T and have to stop it--I will be left in menopausal state with no hormonal support--this is the last thing I want, cause this means a lot of health problems and bad appearance. Even if I don't remove ovaries and they just permanently shut down from T, I'd be completely dependent on T to have normal hormonal function, bone maintenance...and it just freaks me out to be dependent on something medically (as I had already been through that in the past). There're other issues, because testosterone is not the only hormone produced in testes, and having shut down ovarian function with only T to substitute, I'll be missing out on some hormone(s). I think there's a possibility of increased chance of fibromyalgia with that, from what I read. Basically I have a lot of medical concerns... And the political climate...hell knows what's going to be in this country in 20 years, and if it's going to be run by conservatives, and T becomes illegal. There's no Supreme court decisions protecting the right to use hormones to transgender I believe (or may be I'm wrong)--but even that can always be overturned.

[Guest My_Genesis]

Another reason why I doubt I want to use T prescription is because apparently the more T you inject, the more you have to worry about cancer and other problems with female junk downstairs--that's NOT what I'm looking for, for sure, to have check ups by doctors--I haven't done any in forever and have no desire to have any in the future. Well as I was told by my doc, taking T will make check-ups necessary cause of the increased risks... That's like the opposite of what I'm aiming for. Now, I can have a surgery to remove it all... which I don't have money for. Anyway, surgery carries risks of complications, such as fistula (non-healing hole in the bladder)--being athletic as I am, the last thing I need is to be incapacitated for a long time.... not very manly in my book. Plus, if I have ovaries removed and later develop complications from T and have to stop it--I will be left in menopausal state with no hormonal support--this is the last thing I want, cause this means a lot of health problems and bad appearance. Even if I don't remove ovaries and they just permanently shut down from T, I'd be completely dependent on T to have normal hormonal function, bone maintenance...and it just freaks me out to be dependent on something medically (as I had already been through that in the past). There're other issues, because testosterone is not the only hormone produced in testes, and having shut down ovarian function with only T to substitute, I'll be missing out on some hormone(s). I think there's a possibility of increased chance of fibromyalgia with that, from what I read. Basically I have a lot of medical concerns... And the political climate...hell knows what's going to be in this country in 20 years, and if it's going to be run by conservatives, and T becomes illegal. There's no Supreme court decisions protecting the right to use hormones to transgender I believe (or may be I'm wrong)--but even that can always be overturned.

Yeah there are medical risks, and all sorts of other risks such as conflict with legalities. But to go as far as hormonally transitioning and getting all your sex organs removed, and having to be dependent on external hormones indefinitely (I don't like to say for the rest of your life b/c I hope someday the surgeries will advance such that we can produce our own hormones....) shows how much you are willing to risk to transition. It's really a matter of personal choice. If you don't want to risk all that to transition, then it's your choice not to. If you are willing to take all the risks that are involved in taking T and getting those surgeries, that proves how badly you want it.

[Guest sebastiank]

I want to be healthy and independent person. I don't want to depend on others, especially on some doctor or medication, or, on a larger scale, on political body, or a bureaucrat who makes decisions. I work in patient care a lot, as a side job while being a student, and the last thing I want is to not be independent, like some of the patients I see.